Winter 21/22 Eviction Ban (was: And just like that, FFFG lose 298000 votes))

DownByTheGarden

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119995048#Comment_119995048

I agree. They will just kick the can again. They can keep extending the ban. Nobody is going to want to go broke by going to court against it. In Ireland posession really is nine tenths of the law.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119995713#Comment_119995713

I agree with you that I think they will extend the ban however that stage I think you will either see an application for a judicial review or a test case.

Its unlikely in a test case line this that the court would not order the government to pick up both sets of costs.

The Spider

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119995048#Comment_119995048

If they do extend it, it’ll be challenged in court I fully expect one of the REITs or some other multiple property owner to take it up, as far as I know the only reason they got it across now was because it was winter, and extremely time limited, even at that it’s in a grey area, reason it hasn’t been challenged is because by the time it got to court etc. The ban would be up.

issue for the government is if it is challenged and wins, it prevents them from ever doing it again, or anything similar and would have knock on effects into other legislation, I don’t think that’s a road they’ll want to go down, and it’s an obvious trap from the opposition.

ingo1984

I'd imagine they'd declare the situation a national emergency which under the Irish constitution gives them special powers that can circumvent constitutional/legal rights. Similar to the COVID powers and legislation passed then.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120000927#Comment_120000927

It will still be challenged. There only hope if they go down that line is try to allow exemptions where property is required by owner or direct family member

DownByTheGarden

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120001370#Comment_120001370

Like thats ever worked :)

Emblematic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119998981#Comment_119998981

I am not sure about that. Multiple property owners and fund based landlords are less likely to want to evict if the tenant is paying their rent and keeping the place in reasonable order and, if the tenant is not doing those things, their right to evict for those reasons is unchanged under the current deferment.

The Spider

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120003989#Comment_120003989

What happens if they want to increase the rent, and can’t evict? Smaller landlords would probably leave things as is, bigger ones function as business with rent increases factored in every year or so, and used to fund other investments (at least that’s the way it should work).

Argument is interfering with property rights and interfering with running a business etc, if they want to sell properties at top market value (Tahony house comes to mind) and being prevented and left in undue hardship? I’m not a lawyer but could be a lot of issues, let alone one of the reasons it was implemented In the first place was because it was time limited

Emblematic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120004068#Comment_120004068

I don't think wanting to raise the rent was legitimate grounds for evicting a tenant before the deferment so I am not sure what is different now.

The Spider

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120004089#Comment_120004089

Well I suppose what’s different is if a landlord raises it by the 2% they’re entitled tobraise it by and a tenant refuses to pay the increase and keeps paying the previous rent, coupled with an eviction ban the landlord is in a tricky position, that would be my view and it could be wrong, but in my experience when it comes to things like these there isn’t anyone factor it’s an accumulation of all factors.

extending the ban would send alarm bells to anyone looking to sell etc.

Emblematic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120004273#Comment_120004273

If the landlord has legitimately raised the rent by a particular amount and the tenant is refusing to pay that full amount then that is non-payment and eviction is still possible under the deferment as before. The deferment does not change it.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120004285#Comment_120004285

Like a lot of missunderstanding of the way the system worked you are not very knowledgeable.

In general most smaller LL ( 1-2/3 houses) want an easy life they seldom raised rents on sitting tenants.

But those that knew better wanted professional LL. They got them, where they raised rents every year. I do that as well now. Then they lobbied after COVID because of the 2-3 years of increases.

Professional LL were not caught as they raised rents all along but less business like smaller LL were. They decided to sell up. We ended up where we are now

newmember2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120005953#Comment_120005953

Misunderstanding he says...I have to admit I'm finding the above post almost unintelligible.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120006104#Comment_120006104

I corrected it for you

Sorry predictive test is a bollax like the bollaxes that have an issue with it.

Emblematic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120005953#Comment_120005953

I don't claim to be an expert in the area however, to the extent that what you say is true, I don't think your post has much bearing on the points I was making. A poster suggested that the large landlords and institutional landlords would be likely to take a case in the courts against the rental eviction deferment. I think the point remains that this is unlikely for the reason that they are not the ones to avail of the types of evictions currently deferred, and secondly that their right to evict based on non-payment or damage to property remains unchanged.

Emblematic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120006123#Comment_120006123

In fairness it was pretty unreadable before you corrected it.

SwimClub

You'd have to be legally insane to stay a landlord at this point:

https://www.irishtimes.com/crime-law/courts/2022/12/20/tenants-who-owe-over-70000-in-rent-arrears-can-spend-christmas-in-house/

herbalplants

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120019948#Comment_120019948

Exactly madness. More and more landlords will get out of it and renters will have to deal only with big corporate landlords. They won't tolerate 3 years of no rent.

SwimClub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120020074#Comment_120020074

This was actually a corporate/limited company landlord. It wouldn't make any difference who it was because the 3 years were caused by delays in the RTB and courts, any landlord would get the same from the system. It's just insane.

Emblematic

From a tenants point of view, corporate landlords would be preferable to amateur landlords other things being equal but, given the extreme problems in the rental market due to government inaction, small amateur landlords still need to be tolerated. We must live with them. This means not extending the no fault eviction deferment beyond its current date.

SwimClub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120020303#Comment_120020303

You will have to 'tolerate' a lot less of them because they are leaving in their droves - the no fault eviction is neither here nor there when it takes 3.5 years to evict even non-paying tenants.

Who in their right mind will risk 75k of rental arrears (plus over 20k in legal fees to even cap the losses at that), while potentially paying a buy to let mortgage, service charge etc.

I think the lesser spotted small amateur landlord is going to be even harder to spot in this country within a year!

herbalplants

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120020303#Comment_120020303

You are hilarious,having to tolerate the small landlord. Nobody forces you to rent you know.

From your point of view as a tenant, sleeping under a bridge will be free.

herbalplants

Housing minister has announced that he will have to revisit the landlord taxation.

DubCount

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120021566#Comment_120021566

Landlord taxation is a complete red herring.

A LL should either be able to enforce a determination order by the RTB to get an eviction, or be able to bypass the RTB and go straight to the Courts. Having to do a time consuming dance with the RTB before even getting a chance to go to Court is what causes most of the problems.

The Spider

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120021566#Comment_120021566

My guess at this is that it’s game playing, maybe they realised they had to do something about taxation, but didn’t have the time to do it or investigate it, and part of the eviction ban was giving themselves time to look at the tax policy while stemming the tide of landlords leaving.

Personally think they may have left it too late unless it’s a major tax reform, ie leaving the first 15k tax free or something of that nature.

I think a lot of landlords have a genuine fear of tenants overholding and not leaving at the end of leases or impossible to evict

herbalplants

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120022212#Comment_120022212

Totally agree

SwimClub

Any tax measures announced now can and will be reversed at the drop of a hat, and after the next election we could have a complete eviction ban with sales forced with tenants in situe only.

"we can’t have a situation where for the last six years we’ve had the individual landlords leave the market. That is a concern for me to have to deal with,”

This is just lip service, to be seen to have 'done something' to try to stop small landlords leaving after scaring everyone out of the market by riding rough shod over property rights.

Zero credibility at this stage, thanks but no thanks.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120021850#Comment_120021850

LL taxation has always been an issues. It not so much the personal taxation it's the general treatment of the way the business is treated.

You could have a house rented and decided to do it up and half the investment would be considered not allowable for tax purposes as it could be decided to be house improvement.

Larger Investor's can carry or hide these costs more but smaller LL cannot.

However the general treatment where you have a quango which you cannot contact to sort any general registration issues in a timely manner is a disgrace.

The general paperwork has now got too complex where professionals ate required to fill them out. You cannot even do them online.

The problem for government is it cannot row back on theses changes now so the only way it can incentive smaller LL is to give them a significant tax break.

For the last 24 months the warning have been on the cards but the experts on here, in the newspapers and in politics all knew better.

Emblematic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120023262#Comment_120023262

@Bass Reeves wrote "You could have a house rented and decided to do it up and half the investment would be considered not allowable for tax purposes as it could be decided to be house improvement."

In some respects, that is fair though as the house can be reverted to family home status or sold to an owner occupier fairly easily and the rules allow evicting tenants for that reason. This is assuming that the no fault eviction deferment is not continued which I don't think it will be.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120023727#Comment_120023727

Ver few rental properties revert to owner occupied. In any other business any improvements are totally tax deductible.

If there is a profit it is caught by CGT at disposal. Remember any such tsx deduction ate over eight years minimum anyway. But there is a serious difference between a deduction over eight years and waiting for disposal for the return on investment