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License application

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  • 22-09-2022 6:51pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 24


    Hi is it normal procedure for the Garda to ask for permission from a landlord to store a firearm in the house when applying for a license.Thanks



Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 527 ✭✭✭BSA International


    Not heard of it before.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24 Robert_12244


    Yep was thinking the same I think there must be a mistake.Thanks for the reply👍



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 1,439 Mod ✭✭✭✭otmmyboy2


    Absolutely not!

    Doesn't concern the landlord one bit, and is a security concern particularly with someone who has access to your house(presumably has a key) knowing you have a firearm.


    Bloody weird honestly.

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    S.I. No. 21/2008 - Firearms (Restricted Firearms and Ammunition) Order 2008 - Firearm types restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban, ammo storage & transport restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2023 - 2023 Firearm Ban (retroactive to 8 years prior)



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,758 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    Slightly off topic but you might need permission from your landlord to install a safe.

    A safe has to be secured to a solid structure so that usually involves drilling holes and installing bolts. Some landlords might not like you drilling holes in a wall or floor.



  • Registered Users Posts: 39,122 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Would depend on terms if the lease.

    But in most cases, I’d imagine you are correct and would need permission.

    although, you could just request permission to install a safe without detailing further



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  • Registered Users Posts: 24 Robert_12244


    Hi thanks for the responses.Yes I understand that I would need to have to ask to install safe but would I be right in saying that I would not need written permission from the landlord to store the firearm in the house for my application of a licence?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 1,439 Mod ✭✭✭✭otmmyboy2


    Check your tenancy agreement, it will usually detail the things you can and cannot do without informing the landlord, but simply asking them to OK the installation of a safe is the only step needed there.


    You absolutely do not need any permission from a landlord to store the firearm in the house.

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    S.I. No. 21/2008 - Firearms (Restricted Firearms and Ammunition) Order 2008 - Firearm types restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban, ammo storage & transport restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2023 - 2023 Firearm Ban (retroactive to 8 years prior)



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,954 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    As a landlord who shoots.YES I have had numerous AGS inquiries over the years about tenants wanting firearms in the property.Never been a bother to say yes to them either,but it can be an issue with safe installations as you can be left with trying to remove dirty great Hilti bolts from a wall or floor.Thats one point you need to discuss with them as to who is responsible for the removal of those after the tenant moves out.Also it can also depend too if they require an alarm system if it is over a certain amount or type of gun(s).Who is responsible for the alarm removal and return of the property to its original state needs to be set down in writing.

    As for written permission,nope never been asked to give that.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 161 ✭✭smmember20


    In the first instance how and under what levels of enquiry was it established you are in a rented property?

    Issues related to gun safe installation etc are between you and the landlord and nothing to do with AGS.

    There is absolutley nothing in the legislation that requires permission from a landlord to hold a firearm on a rented property and indeed it would compromise your security if you even had to inform them!

    Essentially AGS making it up as they go along in common with the traditional way of policing firearms legislaton that we have all come to expect.

    Ask under what piece of the firearms legislation is he requiring such permission?



  • Registered Users Posts: 24 Robert_12244


    Thanks for the responses👍



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  • Registered Users Posts: 39,122 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    I would expect it to be 100% tenants responsibility to remove safe and make good. Including bolts, patching wall, etc.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,463 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    I wouldn't have agreed to this a few years back but recently I've noticed a change in AGS and what they are seeking. Not in all districts but some and it seems to be spreading.

    I keep my firearms at my parents as the security is so much better, yet each renewal/application must be accompanied with a letter of permission from my parents stating they have no objections to me storing my firearms there.

    I'd imagine this is what is involved here. You don't own the property so AGS are seeking written permission from the property owner to allow you to keep firearm on their property.

    As for legislation to support this, I said some years back that people need to be aware of a sneaky little section in the firearms act, namely section 3(4) which state:

    (4) The applicant shall supply in writing any further information that the Superintendent or the Commissioner may require in the performance of his or her functions under this section.

    In short they can ask for anything they deem necessary to process the application.

    As to concerns people had about the landlord having access to the guns, how? He may have keys to the property, it is his, but if the secure accommodation is followed then the firearm are securely locked away from everyone bar the licensee and so is it a problem. If the landlord did try to steal them then he'd be a fool for a start and also in serious trouble.

    Personally I'd just get the letter and have it done with.

    I seen this and other "requirements" sneaking in over the past years and it's all aimed at tightening existing law. Things such as needing a family member as a referree, when it was almost prohibited when the act was enacted back in 2009.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 24 Robert_12244


    Thanks for the response 👍



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,758 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    OP, how would the Gardai know that you are in a rented property? There's no facility to put down you are in a rented property on the FAC1 form. It only asks for your address.

    @Cass Your situation is different because you are storing them somewhere other than your address. The OP here will be storing them at his (rented) address.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,463 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    @BattleCorp I understand that, but as it was told to me; " I need written permission from the property owner to say they have no problem with you keeping your guns there".

    It wasn't about the address, as in where they were stored, but the fact I didn't own the property.

    I also never needed this before but it's been "requested" over the past 4 to 5 years since we got civilian admins processing the applications. Now whether that is them being overly litigious, cautious, or following the directions of the Super is anyone's guess but I tried to argue the same points as some of you have done above even going to the FPU only to be told the same as the FO was saying which suggested to me a policy shift within AGS to tighten up on applications.

    Also it's only an opinion of mine, to provide the information, instead of delaying the process by arguing and ending up having to supply it regardless.

    Then OP is free to ignore it as they choose.

    Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

    If you see a problem post use the report post function. Click on the three dots on the post, select "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.

    Moderators - Cass otmmyboy2 , CatMod - Shamboc , Admins - Beasty , mickeroo



  • Registered Users Posts: 39,122 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Devil’s Advocate here. But it wouldn’t be possible for the landlord to have certain clauses in the leaves agreement. No pets, no re-painting, no firearm storage?

    No idea if there’s rules to block that. Although, that would make it a licensing issue but a civil issue between renter and landlord.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,463 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    I have less than limited knowledge of tenancy laws so couldn't answer for sure, but such restrictions are in place within the rental market so it's not a stretch to imagine they could be applied with legal "enforcement".

    Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

    If you see a problem post use the report post function. Click on the three dots on the post, select "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.

    Moderators - Cass otmmyboy2 , CatMod - Shamboc , Admins - Beasty , mickeroo



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,954 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Yes a landlord can put such clauses in an agreement of no whatever.Its up to the tenant whether thats acceptable to them or not.

    As for how AGS would know if you are in rented accommodations,certain addresses are known rental accomadations over long periods of time,so it doesnt take any smarts to figure out who owns them on AGS part.We've been in the rental biz over 50 years in Limerick.So any of our addresses are known as rental accomadation.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,463 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    On the rented accommodation aspect, would AGS know or have access to a housing list from the perspective of owners of the property Vs tenants/those living there?

    I have spoken to lads over the years In the same boat as myself in that the storage address may not be the living address and they have said they had to get permission from the house owner to store firearms, but with rented accommodation the addresses would match and there is no "do you own the property" question on the FCA1 only a "if the firearms are stored in a place other than the listed address..." bit.

    Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

    If you see a problem post use the report post function. Click on the three dots on the post, select "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.

    Moderators - Cass otmmyboy2 , CatMod - Shamboc , Admins - Beasty , mickeroo



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,758 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    There would be a list of properties registered with the RTB but I wouldn't think the Gardai have access to it. It wouldn't be very accurate either as an awful lot of property owners haven't registered with them, e.g. most TD's up until about two months ago.

    My guess, and I could be wrong, is that the Gardai wouldn't have a clue if you owned your house or not unless you told them you were in rented accommodation.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 12 anotherguy33


    I'm in rented accommodation aswel. Have an application in for a .22lr rifle (submitted over 3 months ago). I was told last week that the CPO will make contact with me regarding security arrangements. I am storing the firearm at the range with no safe at home. I submitted a signed letter with the application stating this. Would this be acceptable to a CPO? Anyone gone through this before?



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,758 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    As long as the range has an appropriate storage facility then you will be fine. My club stores guns for lots of members.

    You will probably need to get a letter from the club stating that they are storing your firearm (I'm assuming that the signed letter you sent in with your application was written by you and not the club). That should keep the CPO happy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12 anotherguy33


    Cheers battlecorp, yea it was written by the club owner and signed by him. Had all the ducks in a row before I sent in application. The wait is painful☹



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,335 ✭✭✭J.R.


    In a small town or village the Gardaí would probably know most people and know if they were renting or home owner - but in a large town or city they would not know the people - would only know you were renting if you told them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,758 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    I waited 5 months for a restricted rifle renewal this year. COVID and lots of Gardai shifting positions adds to the delays in an already inefficient system.

    Hopefully you'll have your rifle soon enough.



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