Ring Doorbell + GDPR

Clareman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119605068#Comment_119605068

You don't have to register with the DPC anymore. In my opinion GDPR wasn't written to take CCTV/Dashcam/Doorbells into account and is such a grey area that any queries being raised on it will just have the easiest answer given and it'll be up to a test case to put a precedent down.

Clareman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119605096#Comment_119605096

The key word here is "care", but I think we're both in agreement here in the DPC position on it, it's fairly clearcut to me.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058262849/ring-doorbell-gdpr

The Data protection website has this to say:

Care should also be taken to avoid capturing your neighbours’ properties (their house, garden etc…) as this would intrude upon their privacy.

You might want to contact them directly for more specific information. As things are, you don't know where you stand. I wonder if any cases have been taken in EU courts on this? Irish courts are obliged to follow their jurisprudence, IIRC.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119605144#Comment_119605144

From the DP site:

“ In an everyday context, individuals may process personal information in many different scenarios which are of a purely personal or household nature. This kind of processing is not subject to data protection obligations, due to what is known as the ‘personal-‘ or ‘household exemption’.”

Personally, I think if I was worried about being seen on a doorbell video, which may or may not be recording the video, may or may not be set up to view anything other then what is immediately in front of it, I would probably worry about many, many other things in life that would make going out side agonising.

Clareman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119605186#Comment_119605186

The next section covers the doorbell, the bit you are referencing is cameras within the home

"Similar to the cameras inside the home, a smart doorbell is likely to fall within the domestic exemption as its use will be connected purely with the homeowner’s personal or household activity.

Where this may differ from the previous scenario is if the camera on the doorbell is pointed towards a publicly accessible area and is capable of recording individuals in that area."

It's pointed towards the Ops garden and it's capable of recording individuals in that area so it may differ from the scenario you are referencing, in fact they reference the court case that says that it does fall under GDPR "The Court of Justice of the European Union has established in the case of ‘Ryneš’ that the use of a domestic CCTV system that covers a public space falls within the scope of data protection law."

In my opinion, this is all theoretically and not really suitable for GDPR, all the neighbour has to do is say they aren't recording or can't make out the Op and that's the end of the DPC's involvement, they aren't going to go try to prove the neighbour was telling porkies.

Clareman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119605185#Comment_119605185

If my experience with the DPC is anything to go by they won't give a clear answer, they'll just repeat what has been said but won't go and say that you can't record areas that aren't yours, if they did that they'd be stopping the selling of any CCTV system. The big problem here is that the Op can't tell what's being recorded (if anything) or what sensitivity the camera is being set to or if it's being recorded.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119605385#Comment_119605385

won't go and say that you can't record areas that aren't yours

While they hummed and hawed about public spaces, they have clearly stated that recording your neighbours' property would intrude on their privacy, as this is not your property and neither is it a public space.

As others have stated, the OP's problem here is that they don't know if the camera takes in their property, and they certainly don't know if they are being recorded. There is a theoretical right to privacy here that is all but impossible to police and enforce.

Homer

Unless you pay a subscription to Ring then your footage doesn’t get stored in the cloud and the doorbell is simply used to see/interact with anyone that calls to the door. Simple get out would be to say “I don’t pay the subscription, hence your data is not being saved/stored”

put up some hedging/fence and ignore your neighbour as best you can. Not a nice situation to be in but you’ll not get far with DPC I wouldn’t think.

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119604576#Comment_119604576

How do I know that I am being recorded? 

With my doorbell at night you can see the red glow from the IR lights when it's active. I've just checked the App and I can't see how to turn this off. I've activated my doorbell from a bit away to see if I could see the lights but it's in an awkward position so I couldn't, I did see them active when I got close. If you walk towards the camera at night you should see when the IR lights come on, this is when you've been detected and are being recorded.

Clareman

Technology wise, I'd imagine the camera/IR will always being in use.

GDPR wise, I'd imagine you'll get nowhere as it'll be your word against theirs.

Privacy wise, without seeing the field of vision of the camera it's hard to see how you'll get anything but you could try lodging a complaint with the guards but you'll probably come off as the awkward 1.

Having difficult neighbours is an absolute nightmare situation to be in but unfortunately I can't see how you can leverage GDPR to help your case here, if this was a "normal" camera or CCTV then you'd have a case but a Ring Doorbell is acceptable tech now, if someone is misusing them to track their neighbours they have far bigger problems to be dealing with but I can't see how GDPR can be used to solve any of the problems.

zg3409

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119609766#Comment_119609766

Not quite true.

You can enable/disable motion detection in each linked phones app.

You can also go into the camera settings and disable motion detection for all users.

In this case it's unlikely motion at night will trigger the red/ infra red ring of lights. From the OPs point of view moving across the view at night and looking for a ring of nearly black red lights might be helpful. If you view using a mobile phone the infra red will appear brighter on the phone screen. You can test this with a TV remote. You can see the invisible light.

In terms of recording you need to pay extra for this, the default is footage is deleted after 30 days in EU. (See image below)

You can have motion detection, without recording, so confirming motion detection is on, does not conform recording is being paid for.

In terms of recording 24/7 it depends on the type of camera and how it is wired, but all have the ability to record on motion. Newer cameras/doorbells tend to be hard wired only, so can have 24/7 recording with no motion.

In terms of "accidentally" recording a next door neighbour, my ring camera points sideways from my house at the neighbours driveway. I have NEVER had a motion activation from my neighbour even though their car is parked in vision and the neighbour walks in view. Ring contains "smart" motion detection and my neighbours movements of car and person are relatively small and don't trigger the camera. Note a ring camera can also stream audio, one way (listening) or two way (talk to delivery courier).

In terms of OP, legally I doubt much can be done. My advice is to buy a ring doorbell camera for around 60 euro (hardwired model), and play around with it and see its limitations. Motion detection is annoying and your phone beeps any time anyone leaves or enters your house. As a result most people disable it. It does not offer extra security if it's recorded anyway. So it may be recorded but unlikely to be ever viewed. 99.9% of users want to be notified at work when their doorbell is pressed, mainly to know packages were attempted to be delivered and where they might be left.

It's unlikely you are going to be naked in your front garden but it's far from ideal. As suggested fencing might be an option. If this might cause problems then fast growing bushes or plant pots might be an option. They start off small, but over a couple of years provide effective screening and may reduce interactions with neighbour in person.

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119610043#Comment_119610043

Not quite true.

You can enable/disable motion detection in each linked phones app.

You can also go into the camera settings and disable motion detection for all users.

I couldn't see if it was possible to turn off the IR lights when the camera is active. I know how to adjust the motion settings.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119609805#Comment_119609805

Gardai have no role in data protection matters.

The “your word against theirs” issue isn’t the limiting factor. Data Protection Commissioner deals with such scenarios every day.

The limiting factor is whether you can persuade the DPC to get involved.

Clareman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119610581#Comment_119610581

Absolutely Gardai have nothing to do with data protection but can help with privacy issues (different legislation).

From a GDPR point of view the op (data subject) can lodge a subject access request with the neighbour (data controller), the controller then shares the data or declares they don't have any data. If the data subject doesn't believe this stance they can ask the DPC to intervene, they will then ask for previous contacts between thr subject and controller and will ask the controller to check again. At this point the controller might confirm they don't have any data where the DPC will either launch an investigation or take their word for it. I know what's the more likely outcome

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119610547#Comment_119610547

I wouldn't turn them off. A garda told me that they are a little extra deterrent to any scumbag who is sizing up properties to break into.

The camera may not be recording, but they don't know that. But knowing the camera is active might be enough to make them move on to the next place.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119611158#Comment_119611158

What privacy legislation are you referring to please?

DPC never answer a question, they just refer you to their website or quote from it. And you have to wait two weeks for that.

Would the DPC have the authority to investigate the OP's neighbour. Can't they investigate if a company does not conform to the legislation and keeps records but does not admit to this or says "our cameras were out of action".

if the OP is continually watched it may be a harrasment issue for the gardai

can you get a ring doorbell without subscription that you can talk to someone at your door as if you were in the house but be elsewhere?

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119611728#Comment_119611728

I was replying to the OP asking to know if they are being recorded or not. There's no way that I can see to turn off the IR lights and they will only be active when the camera is on, so once the OP can see the IR lights they will know that the camera is active and then can see where the doorbell picks them up as they leave their home.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119612374#Comment_119612374

DPC would have the authority. Would this issue get priority to justify them getting involved?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119616327#Comment_119616327

then the OP could complain to DPC. They are pretty pathetic though really

Hard to believe this is even being discussed, why would anyone think the purpose of a doorbell is to monitor the comings and going’s of a neighbour?

karlitob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119615151#Comment_119615151

Thanks for that. Very helpful.

so on the ring doorbell - when the blue light (and sound) goes off is the only time it’s recording? Would that be correct.

Homer

Without a subscription, you can view real-time video for Ring doorbells and security cameras and answer doorbell notifications as they happen. However, without a Ring Protect plan, you won't get video recordings of those events.

you have absolutely no way of knowing whether they have a subscription or not. Nor will the guards or DPC.

FWIW I have multiple ring products with a subw

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119619274#Comment_119619274

DPC is pathetic or OP is pathetic?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119619348#Comment_119619348

DPC and Gardai have extensive powers of investigation. You don’t get to fine Instagram €400 million by asking them nicely. DPC can absolutely find out if the neighbour has a subscription, if they choose to investigate this.

The real question is whether DPC would choose to investigate.

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119619320#Comment_119619320

No. Blue lights means nothing. I just checked my doorbell and no light came on when using live view.

The only way you can see if the camera is active is at night when the red IR light is on, during daylight there is no way to see if the camera is active.

Homer

We are not taking about instagram or any MNC here though so let’s be realistic. Chances of DPC or gardai getting involved is 0% so why waste one’s energy/time

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119622132#Comment_119622132

Minimal energy involved in making a complaint to the DPC- just filling out an online form, maybe 30-60 minutes.

Homer

Ha! Let us all know how you get on if you ever decided to prove me wrong. Now I’ll stop wasting my own time here.

karlitob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119621883#Comment_119621883

Great. Thanks for checking that. Good to know.

karlitob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119621883#Comment_119621883

Great. Thanks for checking that. Good to know.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119619302#Comment_119619302

My 88 year old mother has suffered all her life with anxiety and stress to the point where it is a mental health condition.

part of its manifestation in her is that she is hyper conscious of her neighbours and all their movements (and further, how she is then perceived by them) and is fully convinced that they are equally monitoring her 88 year old comings and goings.

Clareman

People are often convinced that they are the center of attention for everyone else, that everyone is constantly watching them and that they are tracking everything they do. The fact is that this is often not the case. The neighbour has gotten a doorbell, the Op is worried that the doorbell is being used to monitor them and are looking for GDPR to help them prove/stop this. In my opinion the initial question has been answered, as in the Op can request a copy of their personal data that the neighbour has on them, how the neighbour deals with this will decide the next steps. Any comments on how the DPC will deal with any queries are purely speculation, a lot of us here have dealt with the DPC in the past and can have a guess as to how they will deal with it but ultimately it's just a guess.

I can sympathize with people who don't like being videoed or are anxious about people watching their every move, it must be a terrible way to live but unfortunately it's part of modern living, the neighbour has every right to have a Ring Doorbell.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119634130#Comment_119634130

I was nodding in agreement all the way through, until you said that 'everyone has a right to have a Ring doorbell'. No one has the right to point a camera at their neighbour's property.

Clareman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119634344#Comment_119634344

I guess I finished too soon, everyone has the right to a Ring Doorbell once they use it properly. Bit like the whole “Your right to swing your arms ends just where the other man's nose begins.”

Flinty997

I dunno why people keep giving examples of reasonable use when it's pointed out that the person with the camera has a history of unreasonable behavior. They aren't imagining that.

You could put a screen up to shield your door. And a flag or similar up.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119634344#Comment_119634344

Is the bell pointed at the op’s property? I thought it pointed at the street.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119634709#Comment_119634709

Also worth noting that unlike some other cameras Ring cameras don't rotate. Whatever they are pointing at is a fixed field of vision.

karlitob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119634520#Comment_119634520

Thank you for that. Much appreciated.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119634709#Comment_119634709

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119634774#Comment_119634774

No one other than the owner knows what it's pointed at.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119634987#Comment_119634987

Wouldn’t the direction it is pointed be obvious? Do you know what a ring doorbell looks like? You fit it flush to your door pointing outward where the person at the door stands. That is the point of it, it shows who is at your front door. I posted earlier about the “household exemption” on the DP site, if the bell is not pointed in the direction of the op’s house, it’s hard to see what recourse the op could have. TBH, I’m struggling to see that the op expects to gain from this, does he/she want the neighbour to be forced to remove it? At 75degree field off centre, unless the op has a giant lawn in front of the house, there must be only a tiny overlap on his/her property.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119634987#Comment_119634987

A ring doorbell is flat, and the camera doesn't pan or tilt. It would be pretty obvious if it was fitted to face someone elses property.

Flinty997

The field of vision means it captures far more than just who stands directly in from if it.

Thought that would be obvious.

Also it depends on the proximity to other people's boundaries. For example are there properties facing it. Are the front doors bedside each other. Lots of permutations.

But if it is close to a boundary it means a fence or such would have proportionally bigger blocking effect. As would anything in the fov that triggers the motion detector. Line a flag or wind mobile. Lights etc.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119635058#Comment_119635058

How do you work out what a cameras fov is without looking through it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119635061#Comment_119635061

Sorry, added to my earlier post while you were replying. At 77.5 degree field of vision off centre, unless the op has a long front garden, the overlap would be tiny. Ring doorbell can’t swivel, they are flat with the front door.

If the op lives in a built up area, a couple of the houses across the road would have a much better field of view of the op’s house as the extent of view gets wider the further away the camera is, has the op checked if they have ring doorbells or Ring Cams on their houses?

Flinty997

If the front doors are beside each other and have open plan gardens with driveway or path adjacent it's no problem taking in a neighbours access.

As you say any property opposite is also captured.

You're kind arguing is can't see anything while illustrating it kinda can see a lot.

Flinty997

I assume the ops has less of problem with reasonable neighbors and only really a problem with the disruptive one.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119635162#Comment_119635162

Again that may go back to the “household exemption” on the DP website. The ring doorbell purpose is to identify a person at the owners door, not to spy on the neighbour. Does it take in part of the neighbours property? Probably, along with about 4 houses across the road if it is a built up area, and part of the neighbour on the other side. The obvious question would be, if the neighbour wanted to spy on the op, why would they use the most limited form of doing so? A ring cam pointing down at the door, but offset to include the neighbours house would give a much better view.

I think you are indulging the op’s paranoia.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119635072#Comment_119635072

I have a ring camera.

If the neighbour really wanted to spy on the OPs comings and goings there really are a lot better options than a ring doorbell.

You can also set the field to capture on ring devices. See posts above.

karlitob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119635204#Comment_119635204

Mind your manners. I’m not paranoid.

I have a right in law - as you do - to not be recorded. My neighbour has a responsibility in law to GDPR. She’s been abusive, aggressive and violent. I hope you never experience what my family has experienced with her.

All I wanted was information on Ring doorbells. Not smart arse comments from the likes of you.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119635239#Comment_119635239

Do you know if your neighbours across the road are recording you?