Ring Doorbell + GDPR

karlitob

Hi all

I read all the threads about Ring Doorbells and GDPR but there’s a few questions I had that I hope somebody could help with.

My neighbour has gotten a Ring doorbell. We have a very poor relationship - we don’t speak and have a fractious past. There is no hedging or wall between our garden. I am no particularly pleased with the installation of the doorbell as we feel monitored each and every time we enter into/out of our house, every time we go for a walk, every time we go to and from school / shops and every time we play in the garden with my family.

I suppose that’s my question. How do I know that I am being recorded? How do I know what the sensitivity of the doorbell is set at (our gardens are shallow so I imagine it’s easy to set off)? How do I know what subscription she has and what’s being sent to Ring for storage?

And then if I do contact the DPC, what will they do? Do they contact directly? Do they ask Ring for the information?

And let’s say they do confirm that she is collecting my personal information without my consent, what can they make her do? I presume they’ll say - follow guidelines or something like that.

Thanks all - I guess it’s the complaints process that I was wondering about.

FoxForce5

I've always wondered about gardai asking for dashcam footage on news when talking about crimes. Is that subject to same laws as ring doorbells?

Damien360

Despite your bad relationship with your neighbour, you are in a public place outside your home and I would think there is no identifiable data from that interaction on what is essentially CCTV. You walk in a myriad of stores every single day that record your every movement. I’m sure that other homes have CCTV on your route to the stores. Again, all in a public space. You are thinking far too deeply about what your neighbour sees or bothers to record. Relax and if you have to, moon at the camera once in a while to give them something to think about.

goose06

This is the ODP view on it

https://www.dataprotection.ie/en/dpc-guidance/blogs/cctv-home

karlitob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119601639#Comment_119601639

Thanks. No it is identifiable data - it doesn’t have to be crystal clear it has to be identifiable. It’s me coming and going to my own home every day. It’s me in my own garden everyday with my family. So it is identifiable. And I’m not in a public place - I’m in my home….my garden is private, and I’m entitled not to be recorded in it.

My question was on the process that dpc undertake.

karlitob

Yeah I read that. It doesn’t describe the process of complaint or answer my queries above. Thanks anyway.

Would you normally go next door and press your neighbours doorbell every time you leave your house?

Edit: Sorry, I have an early version which only gave a video stream when it was pressed. Now I see it has motion detection, but it is a narrow field.

s8n

you sound like a lot of fun with very little to worry about

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058262849/ring-doorbell-gdpr

I understand its perfectly legal under gdpr if a sign is put up saying its recording.

karlitob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119602505#Comment_119602505

And presumably perfectly legal for me to request what is done with my personal data and that personal data relating to me is destroyed.

karlitob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119602230#Comment_119602230

Not exactly what I asked in my post but since you commented. My neighbour is an awful person that has made my life and that of my family miserable through years of verbal abuse, damage to our home and obscene gestures. I am merely asking if anyone knows what the process is for me to exercise the same rights that we are both entitled to. Though you seem to be unsympathetic to my plight I hope that you and your family never have to go through what my family has gone through and to go through. Many thanks for your post.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119603566#Comment_119603566

What makes you think your neighbour is recording/storing data on you?

karlitob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119602221#Comment_119602221

Hi

its has a 155 degree field of vision and as I describe above there is no boundary between our gardens (we’re semi-d) so I and my family can be watched on constant monitoring while we are in our garden.

Augme

What's the end goal here?

karlitob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119603604#Comment_119603604

Well that’s my question I asked in my first post - how do I know. It’s a video recording device that can record continuously. So it has the potential to record me - so how do I know, what’s the process the doc undergo, how do I enact my rights.

karlitob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119603626#Comment_119603626

Please see my first post.

I’m struggling to see why this is an issue for you. Ring.com bells are very popular, if it isn’t pointing towards your property, I can’t see why you think he would be monitoring you, or why you think he is recording you.

Damien360

From the data protection link above. In short, recording is not an offence for the purposes of home security but publication of this material may be one depending on what you do with it…….

the quote ……

However an important thing to note is that you may become a data controller for the purposes of data protection law depending on what you do with the recorded footage. What this means is if you, for example, publish the footage online or share it on social media then you may become subject to the obligations of a data controller……

Your neighbour is not committing an offence and you are getting yourself worked up worrying about it

Your neighbour would soon get very bored looking at footage of you going in and out of your house. Plus it would be a pain in the ass getting notifications about it every time.

Ring devices allow the user to set motion detect zones and privacy zones, so you've no proof you are being recorded.

If your neighbour is as bad as you say, why are you poking the bear by trying to invoke GDPR on their doorbell?

You should install one yourself, if the neighbour hassles you and makes obscene gestures at you.

Clareman

Without seeing the footage, I would make some assumptions.

You don't have a right to privacy in public so without knowing the layout of the gardens it's hard to know if you would have a "right to privacy", I assume there's nothing blocking the gardens so I would assume that dashcams would be able to see everything also. The DPC has a fairly clear cut definition of CCTV and even mentions doorbells, the problem you have is you don't have a relationship with your neighbour so you can't find out what they are or aren't recording, for example they mightn't have a subscription, so nothing is being saved. You do mention that you feel that "Big Brother" is watching you, but if you ignore the fractious relationship with your neighbour how many other cameras do you have to deal with on a constant basis, for example how many other neighbours have doorcams, how many have dashcams, how many public CCTV cameras are around the place?

I don't have a Ring myself but looking up Ring doesn't record 24/7 and it's motion detection is configurable (Can My Neighbor's Ring See Onto My Property? - Smart Home Point) Personally I can see why someone would have a problem with a neighbour recording them, but my Google Hello is a godsend, especially when working from home and with small children, if a neighbour was to raise their concerns around my use of it I would work with them to configure it so they were happy, if I wasn't able to make them fully happy well then that's their tough luck, I'm not getting rid of it for them.

In theory you could put in a "Subject Access Request" to your neighbour where you tell them that you want a copy of all the data they have on you, they then will need to give you a copy, they could tell you that they don't have anything and if you don't believe them you'll need to bring a case against them, you'd probably be a test case in that scenario.

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119603762#Comment_119603762

I've a Ring doorbell and no matter how I configure it I get my neighbour coming in and out, during winter when the trees are bare big vehicles on the road will trigger the motion alert. Unless there are physical barriers then the camera will pick up a lot of motion.

OP there is essentially nothing that you can do. It's illegal for a private CCTV camera to be pointed to a public place but its completely ignored and as another poster said the Gardai regularly ask for dash cam or CCTV footage. Then you get to the illegal storage of your data, but go to any social media site and you will see hundreds of videos posted daily with people's personal data clearly visible. Feck even the news stations regularly breaks GDPR regulations when doing outside broadcasts, they are sharing personal data without consent with no good reason.

karlitob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119603804#Comment_119603804

Good man. Really appreciate that. Thank you.

karlitob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119603762#Comment_119603762

thanks.

well I’m not trying to poke the bear. Just want to know the lay of the land.

she does this in the back garden so don’t want to record her in her back garden.

Clareman

Sorry, I picked up that wrong

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119603615#Comment_119603615

Just put up a fence or some bushes then

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119603850#Comment_119603850

I have a ring spotlight camera over my front door. The motion detect zones are set to within the boundaries of my front garden, and the height of the boundary walls, so even though the camera can see my neighbours' gardens, motion in those gardens does not trigger the camera and nothing is recorded. I'd have to have my phone in my hand and be watching the app on "live" to see my neighbours coming and going.

I've actually had the Gardai knock in once when a neighbour across the street had an incident, and they were very disappointed that my camera didn't cover their house too!

My biggest problem with false motion detection is spiders and spider webs!

karlitob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119603850#Comment_119603850

Thank you so much. That’s exactly what I was looking for. Thanks again.

karlitob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119603924#Comment_119603924

On the plans to do.

Redoing my garden at the moment hence her reason for recording me. Sure she records us in our front garden her iPad from her front room.

Markus Antonius

I contacted the DPC directly about this topic recently and it is a big grey area. See post #24 of this thread

1. If the doorbell only points at the owners private property then GDPR does not apply
2. If the doorbell points at public property then GDPR may apply but is never enforced because the doorbells don't usually capture enough detail to cause problems
3. GDPR does not apply if the camera owner claims it is for "legitimate interests" which more or less anyone can claim in court

In the unlikely event that GDPR would be enforced then the owner of the doorbell would have to display signage and delete data after 30 days.

Clareman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119604313#Comment_119604313

I'm interested in the 30 days, what context did the DPC give for that time limit and did they say delete or erase?

Augme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119603631#Comment_119603631

I did, and I'm struggling to figure out what you expect.

For example - How do I know that I am being recorded? How do I know what the sensitivity of the doorbell is set at (our gardens are shallow so I imagine it’s easy to set off)? How do I know what subscription she has and what’s being sent to Ring for storage?

Do you think people in boards can provide answers to those questions? I don't quite understand how that possible u less your neighbour is on boards.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119604576#Comment_119604576

I know what I would do if I received this in the post from Clareman, what would your take be?

“In theory you could put in a "Subject Access Request" to your neighbour where you tell them that you want a copy of all the data they have on you, they then will need to give you a copy, they could tell you that they don't have anything and if you don't believe them you'll need to bring a case against them, you'd probably be a test case in that scenario.”

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119603850#Comment_119603850

It's only 'completely ignored' as long you choose to ignore it. If somebody is recording you and your family while on your own property, you have an absolute right to report this to the DPC for investigation.

The problem here is that you don't know whether they are recording you or not. I'd imagine that the DPC would expect you to at least try to sort this out locally, regardless of your relationship with the neighbour. You're going to have to bite the bullet and approach them in some way, probably best done face to face initially at least.

If you don't get a satisfactory response, you can indeed report to the DPC for a formal view and possible investigation. This could take months or years.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119604313#Comment_119604313

'Legitimate interest' is not a general 'get out of jail' card to bypass GDPR. The homeowner would need to prove they have a legitimate interest in recording their neighbour, which would be a stretch.

Strumms

How many business, will have much more powerful and HD cameras, recording at their premises, capturing images outside..nobody says fûck all

i don’t imagine a judge would be too enamored having their time wasted over a ring doorbell.

anyway with the direction the country is headed I know a lot of people including family members here are , or thinking about ordering home cctv...it’s a LOT cheaper then you’d think and will enable a deterrent as well as an evidentiary element should something happen.

phelixoflaherty

Screenshot_2022-09-11-19-46-41-048_com.twitter.android.jpg

..

karlitob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119604313#Comment_119604313

Excellent. Thank you very much for this. Sorry I didn’t see the post. It’s a complex area and must’ve missed it.

karlitob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119604576#Comment_119604576

Well other posters have answered the question so I guess we both learned something today.

I imagine there could be a lot of vexacious cases taken as well.

Here is an example of motion detection zone on Ring - only what is inside the blue square is monitored, and you can set it up for all recordings to be deleted from between 1 day to 180 days.

karlitob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119604622#Comment_119604622

Thanks andrew

always insightful and practical posts. Much obliged.

karlitob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119604628#Comment_119604628

Firstly a business is not the same as a homeowner so they’re not comparable.

secondly I’ve yet to see a judge not be concerned with the rights on a citizen.

thirdly I made no mention of a judge so I don’t know what you’re on about. I asked what was the process that the dpc goes through to ensure my rights are being upheld.

finally thanks for your time and contribution.

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119604765#Comment_119604765

They are comparable as relates to the law.

plenty of judges are not overly concerned as regards what they should be.

you didn’t mention, I did, you don’t get to dictate what others post.

as for the last line 😉 you are very welcome.

Clareman

The question being asked here is about a Ring Doorbell and GDPR, in my opinion it's a fairly clear-cut situation where people are allowed to have the doorbells and guideance has been given by the DPC in relation to it. From a GDPR point of view, the Data Controller (neighbour), Data Subject (Op) and Data Processor (Amazon/Ring) all have their obligations and guidelines, the Data Subject has concerns around how the Data Controller is operating, they are going to have to speak to each other otherwise it won't go anywhere.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119604930#Comment_119604930

Is being recorded by a business when you enter their premises the same as someone else recoding you in your own home? From a privacy perspective, wouldn’t you expect more in your own property than you would in someone else’s, legally speaking?

While I don’t share the op’s apprehension about a neighbour recording their comings and goings, I would imagine you have greater privacy rights at home than you do in a shop.

Clareman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119604765#Comment_119604765

From a GDPR point of view a business and a homeowner are the same thing, they are a data controller.

I'm trying to remember a judge making a GDPR judgement, this is normally done by the DPC not the courts but a court may make a ruling which will make the DPC take a different stance on their ruling.

The DPC is an independent body which will make a ruling based on the facts that are available to them together.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119605010#Comment_119605010

Does that apply only if personal data is being stored?

Clareman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119604622#Comment_119604622

I think the problem here isn't GDPR but general privacy, the DPC isn't going to get involved in neighbours recording each other, they're just going to ask them to talk to each other and to prove that they have, if the neighbour denies having any footage (or data relating to the data subject) then they probably aren't going to go any further, they aren't the police, they are an independent ruling body.

Now if you feel your privacy is being impacted by someone acting maliciously then that's probably a task for the guards rather than the DPC.

Clareman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119605033#Comment_119605033

It applies if personal data is being processed, processed is definted as "‘any operation or set of operations which is performed on personal data or on sets of personal data, whether or not by automated means, such as collection, recording, organisation, structuring, storage, adaptation or alteration, retrieval, consultation, use, disclosure by transmission, dissemination or otherwise making available, alignment or combination, restriction, erasure or destruction;"

Simples 🤣

Augme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119604604#Comment_119604604

Realistically the neighbour will just ignore their correspondence. I can't imagine the DPC will get involved, and if they do the neighbour will just tell them what they want to hear even if it isn't true.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119605050#Comment_119605050

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119605048#Comment_119605048

Exactly Augme, letter in the bin.

Clareman, you think dash cam/helmet cam/ring doorbell owners do that? Are we all obliged to register with the DPC?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119604985#Comment_119604985

You're misrepresenting the DPC position, as set out here; https://dataprotection.ie/en/dpc-guidance/blogs/cctv-home

To avoid this, when installing a smart doorbell care should be taken to avoid taking in a publicly accessible area. If this can’t be avoided, a user should consult our guidance on CCTV systems to understand their transparency obligations.

Similarly, the definition of ‘personal data’ only covers information (in this case a video recording) where people are identified or identifiable.

What this means is any video footage which captures images of people where they can’t actually be identified wouldn’t be personal data at all. For example, the doorbell would probably capture a pretty clear picture of the person at the door, but might be designed or positioned so that any images of people on a public street are too obscured or low-quality to actually identify them.

If you're doorbell is capturing identifiable images, then you are processing personal data.

And also;

Care should also be taken to avoid capturing your neighbours’ properties (their house, garden etc…) as this would intrude upon their privacy.

Clareman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119605050#Comment_119605050

In the real world the neighbour will either ignore the request or say they don't have any data on them, they'll have a month to reply. If I was the neighbour I'd just say that my doorbell hasn't recorded any footage that they can identify them under and that'll be that.