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Ring Doorbell + GDPR

karlitob

Hi all

I read all the threads about Ring Doorbells and GDPR but there’s a few questions I had that I hope somebody could help with.

My neighbour has gotten a Ring doorbell. We have a very poor relationship - we don’t speak and have a fractious past. There is no hedging or wall between our garden. I am no particularly pleased with the installation of the doorbell as we feel monitored each and every time we enter into/out of our house, every time we go for a walk, every time we go to and from school / shops and every time we play in the garden with my family.

I suppose that’s my question. How do I know that I am being recorded? How do I know what the sensitivity of the doorbell is set at (our gardens are shallow so I imagine it’s easy to set off)? How do I know what subscription she has and what’s being sent to Ring for storage?

And then if I do contact the DPC, what will they do? Do they contact directly? Do they ask Ring for the information?

And let’s say they do confirm that she is collecting my personal information without my consent, what can they make her do? I presume they’ll say - follow guidelines or something like that.

Thanks all - I guess it’s the complaints process that I was wondering about.

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[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119604576#Comment_119604576

I know what I would do if I received this in the post from Clareman, what would your take be?

“In theory you could put in a "Subject Access Request" to your neighbour where you tell them that you want a copy of all the data they have on you, they then will need to give you a copy, they could tell you that they don't have anything and if you don't believe them you'll need to bring a case against them, you'd probably be a test case in that scenario.”

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119603850#Comment_119603850

It's only 'completely ignored' as long you choose to ignore it. If somebody is recording you and your family while on your own property, you have an absolute right to report this to the DPC for investigation.

The problem here is that you don't know whether they are recording you or not. I'd imagine that the DPC would expect you to at least try to sort this out locally, regardless of your relationship with the neighbour. You're going to have to bite the bullet and approach them in some way, probably best done face to face initially at least.

If you don't get a satisfactory response, you can indeed report to the DPC for a formal view and possible investigation. This could take months or years.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119604313#Comment_119604313

'Legitimate interest' is not a general 'get out of jail' card to bypass GDPR. The homeowner would need to prove they have a legitimate interest in recording their neighbour, which would be a stretch.

Strumms

How many business, will have much more powerful and HD cameras, recording at their premises, capturing images outside..nobody says fûck all

i don’t imagine a judge would be too enamored having their time wasted over a ring doorbell.

anyway with the direction the country is headed I know a lot of people including family members here are , or thinking about ordering home cctv...it’s a LOT cheaper then you’d think and will enable a deterrent as well as an evidentiary element should something happen.

phelixoflaherty

Screenshot_2022-09-11-19-46-41-048_com.twitter.android.jpg

karlitob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119604313#Comment_119604313

Excellent. Thank you very much for this. Sorry I didn’t see the post. It’s a complex area and must’ve missed it.

karlitob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119604576#Comment_119604576

Well other posters have answered the question so I guess we both learned something today.

[Deleted User]

I imagine there could be a lot of vexacious cases taken as well.

Here is an example of motion detection zone on Ring - only what is inside the blue square is monitored, and you can set it up for all recordings to be deleted from between 1 day to 180 days.

karlitob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119604622#Comment_119604622

Thanks andrew

always insightful and practical posts. Much obliged.

karlitob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119604628#Comment_119604628

Firstly a business is not the same as a homeowner so they’re not comparable.

secondly I’ve yet to see a judge not be concerned with the rights on a citizen.

thirdly I made no mention of a judge so I don’t know what you’re on about. I asked what was the process that the dpc goes through to ensure my rights are being upheld.

finally thanks for your time and contribution.

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119604765#Comment_119604765

They are comparable as relates to the law.

plenty of judges are not overly concerned as regards what they should be.

you didn’t mention, I did, you don’t get to dictate what others post.

as for the last line 😉 you are very welcome.

Clareman

The question being asked here is about a Ring Doorbell and GDPR, in my opinion it's a fairly clear-cut situation where people are allowed to have the doorbells and guideance has been given by the DPC in relation to it. From a GDPR point of view, the Data Controller (neighbour), Data Subject (Op) and Data Processor (Amazon/Ring) all have their obligations and guidelines, the Data Subject has concerns around how the Data Controller is operating, they are going to have to speak to each other otherwise it won't go anywhere.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119604930#Comment_119604930

Is being recorded by a business when you enter their premises the same as someone else recoding you in your own home? From a privacy perspective, wouldn’t you expect more in your own property than you would in someone else’s, legally speaking?

While I don’t share the op’s apprehension about a neighbour recording their comings and goings, I would imagine you have greater privacy rights at home than you do in a shop.

Clareman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119604765#Comment_119604765

From a GDPR point of view a business and a homeowner are the same thing, they are a data controller.

I'm trying to remember a judge making a GDPR judgement, this is normally done by the DPC not the courts but a court may make a ruling which will make the DPC take a different stance on their ruling.

The DPC is an independent body which will make a ruling based on the facts that are available to them together.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119605010#Comment_119605010

Does that apply only if personal data is being stored?

Clareman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119604622#Comment_119604622

I think the problem here isn't GDPR but general privacy, the DPC isn't going to get involved in neighbours recording each other, they're just going to ask them to talk to each other and to prove that they have, if the neighbour denies having any footage (or data relating to the data subject) then they probably aren't going to go any further, they aren't the police, they are an independent ruling body.

Now if you feel your privacy is being impacted by someone acting maliciously then that's probably a task for the guards rather than the DPC.

Clareman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119605033#Comment_119605033

It applies if personal data is being processed, processed is definted as "‘any operation or set of operations which is performed on personal data or on sets of personal data, whether or not by automated means, such as collection, recording, organisation, structuring, storage, adaptation or alteration, retrieval, consultation, use, disclosure by transmission, dissemination or otherwise making available, alignment or combination, restriction, erasure or destruction;"

Simples 🤣

Augme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119604604#Comment_119604604

Realistically the neighbour will just ignore their correspondence. I can't imagine the DPC will get involved, and if they do the neighbour will just tell them what they want to hear even if it isn't true.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119605050#Comment_119605050

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119605048#Comment_119605048

Exactly Augme, letter in the bin.

Clareman, you think dash cam/helmet cam/ring doorbell owners do that? Are we all obliged to register with the DPC?

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119604985#Comment_119604985

You're misrepresenting the DPC position, as set out here; https://dataprotection.ie/en/dpc-guidance/blogs/cctv-home

To avoid this, when installing a smart doorbell care should be taken to avoid taking in a publicly accessible area. If this can’t be avoided, a user should consult our guidance on CCTV systems to understand their transparency obligations.

Similarly, the definition of ‘personal data’ only covers information (in this case a video recording) where people are identified or identifiable.

What this means is any video footage which captures images of people where they can’t actually be identified wouldn’t be personal data at all. For example, the doorbell would probably capture a pretty clear picture of the person at the door, but might be designed or positioned so that any images of people on a public street are too obscured or low-quality to actually identify them.

If you're doorbell is capturing identifiable images, then you are processing personal data.

And also;

Care should also be taken to avoid capturing your neighbours’ properties (their house, garden etc…) as this would intrude upon their privacy.

Clareman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119605050#Comment_119605050

In the real world the neighbour will either ignore the request or say they don't have any data on them, they'll have a month to reply. If I was the neighbour I'd just say that my doorbell hasn't recorded any footage that they can identify them under and that'll be that.

Clareman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119605068#Comment_119605068

You don't have to register with the DPC anymore. In my opinion GDPR wasn't written to take CCTV/Dashcam/Doorbells into account and is such a grey area that any queries being raised on it will just have the easiest answer given and it'll be up to a test case to put a precedent down.

Clareman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119605096#Comment_119605096

The key word here is "care", but I think we're both in agreement here in the DPC position on it, it's fairly clearcut to me.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058262849/ring-doorbell-gdpr

The Data protection website has this to say:

Care should also be taken to avoid capturing your neighbours’ properties (their house, garden etc…) as this would intrude upon their privacy.

You might want to contact them directly for more specific information. As things are, you don't know where you stand. I wonder if any cases have been taken in EU courts on this? Irish courts are obliged to follow their jurisprudence, IIRC.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119605144#Comment_119605144

From the DP site:

“ In an everyday context, individuals may process personal information in many different scenarios which are of a purely personal or household nature. This kind of processing is not subject to data protection obligations, due to what is known as the ‘personal-‘ or ‘household exemption’.”

Personally, I think if I was worried about being seen on a doorbell video, which may or may not be recording the video, may or may not be set up to view anything other then what is immediately in front of it, I would probably worry about many, many other things in life that would make going out side agonising.

Clareman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119605186#Comment_119605186

The next section covers the doorbell, the bit you are referencing is cameras within the home

"Similar to the cameras inside the home, a smart doorbell is likely to fall within the domestic exemption as its use will be connected purely with the homeowner’s personal or household activity.

Where this may differ from the previous scenario is if the camera on the doorbell is pointed towards a publicly accessible area and is capable of recording individuals in that area."

It's pointed towards the Ops garden and it's capable of recording individuals in that area so it may differ from the scenario you are referencing, in fact they reference the court case that says that it does fall under GDPR "The Court of Justice of the European Union has established in the case of ‘Ryneš’ that the use of a domestic CCTV system that covers a public space falls within the scope of data protection law."

In my opinion, this is all theoretically and not really suitable for GDPR, all the neighbour has to do is say they aren't recording or can't make out the Op and that's the end of the DPC's involvement, they aren't going to go try to prove the neighbour was telling porkies.

Clareman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119605185#Comment_119605185

If my experience with the DPC is anything to go by they won't give a clear answer, they'll just repeat what has been said but won't go and say that you can't record areas that aren't yours, if they did that they'd be stopping the selling of any CCTV system. The big problem here is that the Op can't tell what's being recorded (if anything) or what sensitivity the camera is being set to or if it's being recorded.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119605385#Comment_119605385

won't go and say that you can't record areas that aren't yours

While they hummed and hawed about public spaces, they have clearly stated that recording your neighbours' property would intrude on their privacy, as this is not your property and neither is it a public space.

As others have stated, the OP's problem here is that they don't know if the camera takes in their property, and they certainly don't know if they are being recorded. There is a theoretical right to privacy here that is all but impossible to police and enforce.

Homer

Unless you pay a subscription to Ring then your footage doesn’t get stored in the cloud and the doorbell is simply used to see/interact with anyone that calls to the door. Simple get out would be to say “I don’t pay the subscription, hence your data is not being saved/stored”

put up some hedging/fence and ignore your neighbour as best you can. Not a nice situation to be in but you’ll not get far with DPC I wouldn’t think.

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119604576#Comment_119604576

How do I know that I am being recorded?

With my doorbell at night you can see the red glow from the IR lights when it's active. I've just checked the App and I can't see how to turn this off. I've activated my doorbell from a bit away to see if I could see the lights but it's in an awkward position so I couldn't, I did see them active when I got close. If you walk towards the camera at night you should see when the IR lights come on, this is when you've been detected and are being recorded.

Clareman

Technology wise, I'd imagine the camera/IR will always being in use.

GDPR wise, I'd imagine you'll get nowhere as it'll be your word against theirs.

Privacy wise, without seeing the field of vision of the camera it's hard to see how you'll get anything but you could try lodging a complaint with the guards but you'll probably come off as the awkward 1.

Having difficult neighbours is an absolute nightmare situation to be in but unfortunately I can't see how you can leverage GDPR to help your case here, if this was a "normal" camera or CCTV then you'd have a case but a Ring Doorbell is acceptable tech now, if someone is misusing them to track their neighbours they have far bigger problems to be dealing with but I can't see how GDPR can be used to solve any of the problems.