Paternity Leave Denial

Still stihl waters 3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119569070#Comment_119569070

There is no "spirit of maternity leave" there is only the law

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119570879#Comment_119570879

Legally I think the employer can argue this case. The employer is granting the employee leave for the birth of his child which rightly should be taken as paternity leave not annual leave ( not illegal of course but could be deemed as employee trying to work the situation to his advantage). Technically there is nothing stopping the employer from refusing the OP AL at this time and I would not be surprised if they with back track on granting AL. The employee has decided to try to be smart and save his paternity leave for a time when he knows he cant take annual leave all because he wants the whole of christmas off. If his baby was due in December or at Christmas and he was refused paternity leave it would be a different matter.

If the Op speaks to his employer I am sure they will give him the special days off ( as his 2 days of every week + christmas Bank hols which he gets anyway). He can take his paternity leave before christmas.

HBC08

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119571254#Comment_119571254

He's working all over Christmas and looking to get from after Stephens day off as far as I can see.

I work in a healthcare job too.Christmas has to be covered but we take it in turns each year.No way should it fall on the same person every year.

CrookedJack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119571254#Comment_119571254

You are just making all this up - there is no test for the motivation of a person when they take paternity leave, there are only legal entitlements.

If this did end up in a WRC case the following facts would make it extremely unlikely for a ruling in the employer's favour.

1. Annual leave was approved, and so deemed viable for the business.
2. OP is legally entitled to take his paternity leave when he wishes, regardless of the employer's business requirements.
3. The employer has no right of refusal for paternity leave.

I can't see how the employer has any leg to stand on. They approved annual leave, it would be incredibly prejudicial for them to suddenly deny the leave now.

Why would it be up to the OP to come to some flexible arrangement rather than the employer to honour their legal requirements?

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119571269#Comment_119571269

I find this hard to understand aswell. I too have family working in healthcare and it usually the case if you worked Christmas day last year you are off christmas day this year. Also if you work Christmas day you would have new years day off and vice versa. The OP he has said he is expected to work christmas eve, christmas day, St Stephens day, new years eve and new years day - he has done this for the last 5 years. If this is the case its very unfair and should be raised with HR.

Wanderer2010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119570719#Comment_119570719

+1

Shocking the amount of people who live to work instead of the other way round. Companies exist for one reason only, to make as much money as possible. They dont care about you or invest in your future. You are a number and if you believe anything else, you have a lot to learn.

Sadly a lot of people, and not just graduates, believe they have to work unpaid overtime, weekends, basically give up their lives for a company which would replace them in a heartbeat if they got sick or died. And these buzzwords you hear in corporate America have crept into Irish workplaces, crazy!

wonski

The company you work for has their priorities wrong.

I work in retail/warehousing and am approving holiday requests and paternity etc. for 30 employees. We have busy peak periods, especially around Christmas.

Never have refused someone's paternity leave or annual leave when this is due to them having a baby.

Many don't take paternity, just a week or two of annual leave and I just tell them they can have it whenever it suits them as dates can and often change.

It isn't company policy, but common sense. Someone has a baby and needs time off. It is completely different than booking regular holidays on first come/first served basis.

Why would I piss off a good employee with such bullshit that we are busy etc. Completely wrong. And clearly badly planned.

Many managers learned that refusing requests like that lead to either employees calling in sick or finding another job very quickly.

I rather have a happy employee who knows the company (and me ;) is looking after them and their wellbeing.

If someone brought us to WRC because of me refusing paternity I would have very, very unpleasant meeting with my manager.

Starfire20

the sense of entitlement from employers is staggering.

OP, take your paternity leave and don't give the employer a second thought.

it's the managers responsibility to ensure there is adequete coverage at all times.

if they're being too cheap to hire enough staff, thats on them.

iamwhoiam

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119571336#Comment_119571336

Same here . I worked in healthcare both here and in another EU city and it was fairly done . One year on one year off etc . And no one ever worked all the BHs if you worked Christmas you had New Year off .

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119571254#Comment_119571254

Did you miss the part where the OP posted that his employer has already cancelled his annual leave twice this year, yet was told by their employer if they don't use what leave they have remaining before December, it will be forfeit?

They are forcing me to use AL before end of December or lose it, I've had AL cancelled twice this year by my workplace due to the pandemic they cited and I can't use it in December and have it taken for September, October and November. What else am I supposed to do? They also want me to work Christmas Eve, Christmas Day, St Stephens Day, New Years Eve and New Years Day, i'm the only employee working all these dates

I don't think its the OP who is being manipulative of his employer here. I think its the other way around.

It would probably suit the employer if his annual leave was forfeit. If they were anyway decent, they would allow him to carry over his remaining annual leave (which THEY have not allowed him to take) into next year. Then I'm sure he'd be quite happy to take his Paternity Leave entitlement around the time of the birth rather than try to use up his Annual Leave, which will otherwise be forfeit - because his employer did not allow him to take it earlier in the year, and will not allow him to take it in December due to their own embargo! He isn't the one trying to take advantage here.

He is statutorily entitled to take his paternity leave within 26 weeks of the birth. It doesn't have to be straight after the birth.

Honestly, if they even attempt to deny it, or him taking time off over Christmas, I'd go straight to the WRC.

TheW1zard

Get a new job

hawaii501

How are people picking up for the employer here, employee cant carry his annual leave or take it after Dec 15th so has used his annual leave for Oct and Nov instead.

He has a legal entitlement to take paternity if he wishes therefore is taking this at Christmas as he can't use annual leave(which will be gone)

Honestly who cares about the company policy in this situation. He has to sue to all annual leave up so its company policys fault. Sure if I was already refused annual leave twice in the year like the OP I'd be gone already and I'd 100% be doing what he's doing if I was still working in the company.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568581#Comment_119568581

Pretty sure the law isn't going to be clanged on account of one individual.

OP, take your leave as and when you see fit and in line with what you think is best for your family.

Employers show no loyalty, so none should be expected in return.

Princess Calla

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119571843#Comment_119571843

I don't think anyone is sticking up for the employer. It's more a case that relevant information is being spoon fed after the fact.

Initially it sounded like the wife was due end of September her parents were coming over for a month and he wanted first 2 weeks of November off, but the company had a policy of no leave at this time.

He made it sound as if he'd be working as normal while the grandparents were there....it was suggested to push the grandparents back the few weeks and take paternity leave at the time of the birth and bond as a family unit before grandparents get there.

It then transpired that he was actually off at this time anyway as he was using annual leave.

Now in normal circumstances I would consider taking annual leave at the birth then pushing for paternity leave months later when there's a ban on leave a sneaky move (yeah perfectly legal but if it was your team mate pulling it, leaving you up the swanny you probably wouldn't be too impressed)

It then transpired that his leave had been cancelled twice and now he was facing losing it.....so puts the situation in a totally different light.

His place of work sounds like an actual farce of a place to work in.

His HR department have emailed him back saying something along the lines of annual leave not allowed so wouldn't be fair to allow paternity leave or something to that effect.

Me I would email hr back with the annual leave dates I initially requested and got refused, both sets. The email stating I'd lose my annual leave entitlement if I didn't use the leave before year end and state again I would now like to take my paternity leave on these days. .....that's if the dates were really important to me. While the law is completely on the OPs side he still has to work there.

finglashoop

Do what suits your family

End of discussion

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058261811/paternity-leave-denial

I notice that some people have replied and gone into off-topic stuff about what might be good for your employer which doesn't actually address the question you asked, when you said:

I just want to know are they allowed to deny me these dates?

Aside from engaging professional advice, the way you get a definitive answer on this is to look up the relevant legislation, which is the Paternity Leave and Benefit Act, 2016.

Paternity Leave and Benefit Act 2016 (irishstatutebook.ie)

It is not my place to advise you on a random thread on boards, but as far as I can tell the employer is not allowed to deny you those dates. Therefore a refusal for the reasons given would seem to be unlawful and subject to action by the WRC. That's it, full stop, but I'd suggest you search through the text in the link in case there's a refusal or delay provision hiding in there that I've missed.

There is a provision in Section 16 which allows an employer to cancel the leave and call you back to work if they have reasonable grounds to believe that you are not using the leave for the purposes set out in the legislation (Section 6). But other than that I can't see anything.

WADR, all the other stuff about taking the employer's needs into consideration is irrelevant. If it were relevant, the government would have included a provision in the legislation to allow employers the right to defer, postpone or contest the application. Other legislation gives employers those rights - see the parental leave legislation, for example.

On the other hand, some posters have mentioned another issue which is relevant to you, even if not relevant to your question. They've mentioned that the best time for you to take your leave from your point of view and your family's point of view is early after the birth rather than later, and that it would be better for all of you to get help of grandparents and/or other family members later. Based on our experience (admittedly a long time ago) I agree with them wholeheartedly. For that reason, I'm saying that it is worth your while reassessing the timing for you own benefit and that of your family. But it's your call, and your employer's "needs" are not the issue and should not come into your thinking.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119570336#Comment_119570336

Totally irrelevant.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119570738#Comment_119570738

Yeah, sure, they can refuse it and then they'll get reamed a new one at the WRC. Maybe stop pontificating if you don't know what you're talking about? 🙄

Tomw86

Send them an email quoting the legislation and give them the dates you will be taking - do that today.

Don't pose it as a question or await a response but kindly ask them to confirm receipt of the email so that no1 can claim they didn't receive it.

If HR don't respond follow up with a phone call and again ask them to confirm receipt.

best of luck and congrats in advance.

BronsonTB

To clarify make sure you take the 2 weeks together! (WHENEVER THAT IS WITHIN THE FIRST 6 MONTHS - Cannot be taken at separate times, only learned that the hard way!)

Paternity leave gives new parents 2 weeks off work. You can take time off if you are employed or self-employment, and can start the leave any time in the first 6 months after the baby's birth.

Parental leave & Parent’s leave are different again.

super_furry

I think you're approaching this all wrong - you shouldn't be requesting the paternity dates you want at all. You should be informing them of a dates that you are taking your paternity leave and if they have a problem with it then it's their problem.

They might try implement a ban on annual leave, I'd love to see them argue a ban or paternal or maternal leave. There's a reason they won't put anything in writing, they're trying to con you.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119573776#Comment_119573776

There is no such thing as maternal leave.

There is maternity leave. There is also paternity leave, and parents leave, and parental leave. Each has their own set of rules.

Technically, it appears that paternity leave can be taken in two continuous weeks at any time of the employee's choosing within 6 months of the birth. I'm not familiar enough with the actual legislation to be certain if there are any caveats or case-law influencing this - and I'm certainly wouldn't rely on Citizen's Information info as the basis of a legal case about anything.

But I do know that sometimes you can win a battle, but still lose the war.

sasco

Suit your family and make sure all communications with HR/your manager on this are through email. The fact that you have worked Christmas Eve and Christmas Day over the last 5 years is unreasonable and unusual. These days are generally shared over the years between staff.

AmberKat

I really can't believe how many people on the thread are trying to shame/guilt trip the OP about his plans. There is a reason that the regulations allow it to be taken anytime in the first 6 months. Everyone has different family circumstances and needs.

Even before everything else (cancelled annual leave, forced use it or lose it, previous years working all the key dates, still working half of them this year) was highlighted the OP was in the right and should take his leave when it best suits his family. Being a considerate conscientious employee does not mean you have to let your employer dictate your life.

The employer is trying to take advantage of an employee they have become accustomed to taking advantage of.

My advice OP no need to make this more stressful than necessary.

1. Reply to the HR email, with your manager on cc, asking them to confirm whether the paternity leave is approved or not. Make it factual and direct no need for additional clarifications at this point.
2. If they reply it's approved great!! If the reply it's rejected move to step 3.
3. Forward the email including the full email trail to your personal email address and/or print it.
4. Reply to the decline, outlining your disappointment in their response given how accommodating you have been over the past 5 years, working all the key Christmas days every year, and especially this year when you accommodated them cancelling your annual leave twice. Make sure to state that you now have no choice but to consider your options. (this way you are not threatening the WRC or quitting but the implication is clear). Ask them to confirm on what grounds they are denying the leave.
5. Leave it a couple of days (making sure you are still within your notification timelines). They will either respond saying the leave is approved (which is a win) or they will ignore it.
6. If there is no response within a max of 5 working days (don't leave it any longer). Follow up and advise them that you have reviewed the legislation and that it appears you are entitled to take the leave you requested so you now plan on doing so. Ask them to acknowledge receipt of this notification. In the mean time start looking for a new job, with an employer who will appreciate your contribution.
7. Chase confirmation daily via email and phone, e.g. ring HR ask them to confirm. If they do confirm over the phone reply to the email saying you spoke to NAME and they confirmed the email had been received. If the don't advise that you call and spoke with NAME and they said they would "WHATEVER PLACEHOLDER EXCUSE THEY USE". Make sure to keep copies not on company equipment of all these emails.

Best of luck!!

thegetawaycar

Can't believe the amount of people who think you should change PL to suit the employer.

You are giving the appropriate notice, if they need a temp they can get one (not really your business how they cover you)

Send the dates you ARE taking to HR and just copy your manager and ask them to confirm receipt of same.

Any negative feedback etc... just get a copy of it. They are leaning on the fact that they believe you will just bend to their will, probably as you have been accommodating before.

Take and enjoy your Paternity Leave ignoring all the bullshit from the employer.

Anybody telling you to take at birth etc... Ignore them, the mother and baby needs/wants are the most important at this stage not what anyone else perceives.

Best of luck with the new arrival, it's an exciting time but it flies.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119570336#Comment_119570336

Here’s the law concerning PL.

When can I take paternity leave?

You can choose to take paternity leave at any time in the 26 weeks after the birth or adoption. You need to give your employer notice that you want to take paternity leave and specify the dates you plan to take. You must do this in writing at least 4 weeks before your leave.

You must provide a certificate from your partner’s doctor stating when your baby is due, or stating the baby’s actual date of birth if you apply for leave after the birth.

If you are adopting, you must provide a certificate of placement showing the date when the child was placed with you.

By law the employer simply has to grant the PL request. If the OP was a female do you imagine the employer could say “ it simply doesn’t suit us for you to go into labour and deliver a baby at that time”. So why on earth are you suggesting that the father of the child should just accept this response?

Im flabbergasted by the attitude of some posters here.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119571254#Comment_119571254

The employee has 26 weeks to take the paternity leave. What else do you need to know?