Paternity Leave Denial

Still stihl waters 3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568634#Comment_119568634

Forced to take annual leave, they've refused AL twice, they can't have it every way, and because you've had 3 kids and "managed" everyone else should do the same

Capajoma

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568640#Comment_119568640

No, I work in healthcare, as I've said before im working this year too, Christmas Eve and Day included, and worked the past 5 Christmas Days, not being with my wife for any of it and without complaint. I'm just now want to take my paternity leave around this period whilst still helping out and working some difficult dates as my wife doesn't want to be alone for it all with the child.

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568666#Comment_119568666

No way healthcare would make you work all the important days over Christmas or ban leave at Christmas.

iamwhoiam

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568660#Comment_119568660

Nope thats not what I said at all . No need to be abrasive

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568581#Comment_119568581

Load of nonsense. OP is entitled to take paternity leave at a time of their choosing within 6 months of the birth.

You wouldn't dare raise a fuss over a woman taking maternity leave at an "awkward" time but the need for cover is exactly the same. It's entirely the employer's problem, not the employee's.

Pure sexism.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568625#Comment_119568625

Wow. They're being totally unreasonable.

CrookedJack

OP you are completely within your rights to take this time off at a time that suits you and your family. It is your employer's job to manage their staff during their busy periods, not yours. If they haven't managed to build enough slack into their rosters to allow people to have children and so take their entitled leave that is their poor planning, not yours.

This is not annual leave, this is not a baby holiday, it's your legally mandated paternity leave. Inform them in writing, at least four weeks in advance, and then it is up to them how they cover for you. They do not have the right to deny your leave, and would lose any WRC case if they tried.

Also ignore everyone telling you to change your times or plans etc. They have no idea about you or your family, you know what works for you and yours.

Akrasia

The employer is being unreasonable. You have given 4 month's notice for them to arrange cover and you are entitled to take that leave.

JayRoc

In ten years will your employer remember this, assuming you are even in the same job? Of course not.

Why in the name of god would anyone put a job ( and a job they don't seem to be happy in) ahead of their family? Utter nonsense.

When I was younger and less sure of myself, I allowed myself to miss important things, moments that I will never get back, in order to keep employers happy. I will always regret that.

magicbastarder

Would be curious if it's the OP's manager or HR who have told him informally the leave will be denied. The manager may not know the ins and outs.

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568612#Comment_119568612

Considering most of us spend most of our waking hours at work during the week, it's prudent to work with the employer with regards to AL and PT rather than cite the law and dig your heels in. Being flexible usually works a whole lot better than bringing in the WRC....and I say this as someone who dragged an employer to the labour court in the past....and won.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568616#Comment_119568616

Blanket sexism much there? Speaking from experience as a man and a father; I consider myself to have been quite supportive during and in the weeks post birth. I was the man keeping my partner calm pre-labour. I was the one driving her safely to the maternity hospital. I was the one ensuring she was taken care of and not just left waiting until it was convenient for the nurses to pop their heads into the room. I was there during every birth, doing all I could to make her experience as comfortable as possible under the circumstances. I was the one who knew from experience when the midwives needed to get their gloves on (so to speak) and get into action. I was the one keeping everything together (with some family help) at home while my Wife recovered in hospital and bonded. I brought her and the baby what she needed 2-3 times per day and gave her a break when I was there, letting her freshen up etc.

When at home, for the first couple of weeks, I took over most of the HH duties and made sure my Wife could focus on herself and the baby. I was far from perfect, but I did my best and there was no PL available for me. I can say that the other fathers I know have been similar in their uselessness to me. Maybe you just found yourself a dud.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568625#Comment_119568625

Talk to the decision maker and mention the cancelled annual leave. Citing your legal rights might get you your way, but it won't bode well going forward. They probably have you working the Christmas and NY period because of your AL demands.

Mrs OBumble

OP just ro be absolutely clear: it is paternity leave you have applied for, and not parental leave or parents leave?

Because the names are similar, people sometimes mix them up - which can be a problem because the rules around them are quite different.

I would approach a discussion with HR on the basis that someone has got confused and is applying the wrong rules.

Princess Calla

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568696#Comment_119568696

The spirit of paternity leave is to take it when the baby comes home from hospital to bond as a family unit.

It was also acknowledged that unfortunately not all babies get discharged within 3 days of being born and some spend months in hospital. So the 6 months is there to facilitate this.

It's not supposed to be used to get leave when the company has a policy of no leave during a busy period,especially after a few months of a healthy birth. If the birth happened during this time I'd be telling the company I'm taking the leave, it wouldn't be a discussion.

The OP is perfectly within his rights to fight it and will probably win but at what cost? Will there be an unofficial black mark beside his name? Will he now get rostered for all the sh1tty shifts.

Like the place sounds extremely badly managed as it is, personally if my annual leave was refused twice my cvs would already be sent out.

I'm not even entering into a maternity vs paternity leave debate!

From Citizens Information:

Having problems taking paternity leave

If you have a problem taking your paternity leave, you should raise it with your employer first. If you cannot resolve the issue directly with your employer, you can make a formal complaint to the Workplace Relations Commission (WRC).

How to make a complaint to the WRC

If you have a dispute with your employer about paternity leave, or face dismissal over paternity rights, you can make a complaint to the WRC. You should use the online complaint form.

You should make your complaint within 6 months of the dispute taking place. The time limit may be extended for up to a further 6 months, if there was reasonable cause for the delay.

___

In your shoes I would also dust of my CV and look for a new employer with more respect for their employees and better working conditions. It sounds like this company treats you like a slave, denying annual leave, now paternity leave?

Maybe you could job seek and set up some interviews while on your annual leave, ready to move after your paternity leave. I would have no loyalty to an employer who treated me like this.

Capajoma

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568673#Comment_119568673

Its true, AL is stopped from the 15th until January, Im taking from the 26th, so i'm working up until Christmas Day and yes I've been cheekily put in all those days, as I'm a quiet person and have accepted it in the past they were hoping to that I would accept working all those days again.

Capajoma

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568789#Comment_119568789

My manager said they received a call from HR saying it can't happen. I have emailed HR asking for confirmation of my dates being denied but they replied in a round about way without confirming this, saying because they don't approve AL, it would be inappropriate to approve PL for me.

Capajoma

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568868#Comment_119568868

Just to clarify, I had never signalled my intent about paternity leave before I was told of my shifts for Christmas, it was being told this that made me consider using my paternity leave at this time as I wouldn't have any of the 24th, 25th, 26th, 31st or 1st with my newborn and wife, which I felt was unreasonable.

Capajoma

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119569055#Comment_119569055

Yes it is paternity, I'm aware that employers can request postponement and date changes for parental leave.

peacock_lane

Same as Mrs OBumble if I were you I'd email your manager/hr and reiterate the dates, advising that as it's paternity leave as opposed to to parental leave the dates are at your discretion (and not subject to negotiation by your employer) and it's important that you are there for your wife and child on such and such dates. Ask them to confirm by return email that the dates have been approved for paternity leave.

Sorry you have to go through this OP, I did think like Mrs OBumble it's possible (maybe not likely) that they don't realise you get to choose the dates and they can't disagree, but there are so many dodgy employers out there you'd never know. Keep your requests short and to the point and in writing! Hope all is well at home preparing for the new arrival.

FoxForce5

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119569291#Comment_119569291

Simple, email to line manager cc HR stating dates you are taking paternity leave. Follow up with copy of birth cert ignore all follow on correspondence on the subject. The law is 100% on your side ignore all this "spirit of the law" bs. Take your leave and if any blowback nail them to the WRC cross. It's an employees market OP.

Firblog

I have to say I was in the camp that thought you were pushing it looking for the time off in time of year when there was an embargo by the company on anyone taking annual leave; however that changed when you said about having to cancel your leave due to covid and working all the main days over Christmas for the last 5 years.

What I'd advise doing is to point out in an email to your superior, and the hotel's? overall manager, and HR;

How you cancelled your annual leave twice to help them; and consequently have to take your annual leave in October & November as a result

How you have worked all the important days over Christmas/New Year for the last 5 years

How her parents are going to be here from XYZ for the 1st month after the birth and so the best time for you to take the leave is the following month; and that you recognize that while this is during the moratorium on annual leave, you'd appreciate if they would facilitate you taking the parental leave on the dates needed.

I'd ask them to let you know asap so that you may alleviate that uncertainty for you wife at the earliest time possible.

This way you're reminding everyone how good an employee you've been, put your plans aside for the benefit of the company, have used your annual leave because you have to, and are asking nicely for a bit of consideration (they will also be aware that they actually have no right to deny your request)- so being a good employer they can help a good employee out and feel good about it.

If that doesn't work, feck them and tell them you're taking it anyway and look for a job with a better employer.

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119569282#Comment_119569282

Dont accept working on Christmas day - you worked the last 5 Christmas's so it's someone else's turn to work this year.

Why do they ban everyones leave at Christmas - surely they have too much staff working if noone is allowed take leave.

faceman

Jaysus, mad the people replying supporting the employer here. Maybe we could ask the OP's wife to reschedule the birth to accommodate the employer? lol

OP, employers dont have to approve paternity leave as long as you follow the statutory rules for taking the time off. You dont need to go guns blazing either, but make sure to put your request in in writing and if they say you can't have the time off, then remind your boss of their obligations with paternity leave. Bigger picture stuff here is this is potentially downright toxic culture by your employers. This is the birth of your first child you're talking about here, not a 2 week jolly in Santa Ponza!

Again to reiterate:

• Follow the rules and give the appropriate notice
• Be assertive but professional in your interactions
• If the employer rejects, refer them to the legisalation and seek their response in writing
• If you are getting nowhere with your boss then talk to someone in HR

Best of luck with the new baby, exciting times ahead!

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119569773#Comment_119569773

I dont think you read the thread. The OP doesnt want to take paternity leave at the time of the birth of his child. He wants to take it a few months after the birth at christmas when his employer has a ban on leave for a few weeks.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119570336#Comment_119570336

Whether they want to take it from day 0, for a family holiday or at the last minute is irrelevant - it is the employee who decide.

I agree that some tact is required, going in all guns blazing isn't the best way to resolve it.

Swaine

If you died today, you'd be replaced in the morning. Don't bend over for these idiots.

Cannot believe there's posters on here supporting the employer. No wonder this country is such a mess.

starkid

alot of bootlickers in this thread. christ

work is being unreasonable. why should he bend over backwards to appease them, at such an important time? you´ve one life, we aren´t in debt to our employers, its **** 2022. his workplace and people on here need to cop the fck on

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119570682#Comment_119570682

The employer unfortunately can refuse it. It would be a different situation though if he was taking the leave at the actual time of the birth - I imagine no employer would refuse that. The op though is taking annual leave for the birth and is trying to pull a fast one by taking paternity leave at Christmas ( months after the birth). He's not doing himself any favours!

He needs to sit down with HR and discuss that he needs Christmas Eve /day off to be with his family. I'm sure they will be reasonable when he's explains.

FoxForce5

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119570738#Comment_119570738

No grounds in legislation to deny unless OP not legal father, show us where employer can deny outside of above scenario , what you are saying is untrue

Augme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119570738#Comment_119570738

You're wrong. The employer can't refuse it. The emoyer has no say when Paternity leave can be taken.