Paternity Leave Denial

Capajoma

Hi, my first child is due at the end of the month, I've already applied for paternity leave in work but have been told informally it won't be approved. I'm not applying for paternity leave when the child is born as my wife's parents will be staying with us for a month and she is happy with the level of support then and wants me to take it at a later date. The date I applied for is within the 6 month threshold. The reason I was told it won't be approved is that the company I work for does not allow annual leave to be taken during this time and it would be inappropriate to allow me to take paternity leave then. I just want to know are they allowed to deny me these dates? Anywhere I've checked online does not mention the employers rights to deny the application if made in time. My application is well within the 4 week timeframe of notice that also needs to be given.

Thanks for your help!

FoxForce5

They can only refuse it you are not entitled to it , same as maternity leave. Get refusal in writing. Something tells me they won't put it on paper. Make sure you follow all procedures for paternity including supplying them with copy of birth cert naming u the father and enjoy Ur time off. If they kick up a fuss nail them in the WRC.

Capajoma

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568128#Comment_119568128

Thanks for your reply. Yeah I've seeked clarification on if my application is not being facilitated through email and they kind of danced around the subject without outright saying no. It does feel like they are chancing their arm and hoping that I'll back down and change my dates.

Princess Calla

Is this the hill you want to die on?

Can you be more flexible with your dates?

Your wife will have support for the first month (to be honest I would find people staying with me after the birth much more stressful than being on my own, but that's me)

She'll have found the routine that suits her.

Could you not take the leave after the annual leave embargo is up?

From the employers point of view you're waiting until they need all hands on deck to play "it's my right" to get this leave now card. Especially as the leave is not being taken at the time of birth. ....if the leave was taken at time of birth , I think you'd be more justified in fighting for it, even if it was during the embargo. However you're the one postponing leave (I know it can be taken anytime within 6months) until a time the company has rules against taking leave.

I'm sure if you kick up a fuss you will get it but would it be worth it?

Capajoma

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568176#Comment_119568176

Well tbh the dates we have chosen are the ones my wife has asked me to do , it suits my family best and I feel wrong putting works request above my wife's. I've made sure to given them over double the notice required for them to sort cover. I'm happy to be corrected if what I'm doing is wrong.

iamwhoiam

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/leave_and_holidays/paternity_leave.html#:~:text=Paternity%20leave%20gives%20new%20parents,when%20you%20adopt%20a%20child.

When can I take paternity leave?

You can choose to take paternity leave at any time in the 26 weeks after the birth or adoption. You need to give your employer notice that you want to take paternity leave and specify the dates you plan to take. You must do this in writing at least 4 weeks before your leave.

You must provide a certificate from your partner’s doctor stating when your baby is due, or stating the baby’s actual date of birth if you apply for leave after the birth.

If you are adopting, you must provide a certificate of placement showing the date when the child was placed with you.

Capajoma

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568313#Comment_119568313

Yeah I've done all this and I've done a lot of research but I can't see anywhere that allows the employer to deny my my chosen dates. I am open to correction on this but I feel once I apply in time and provide necessary documentation it is illegal to deny me my dates?

iamwhoiam

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568343#Comment_119568343

Maybe Citizens advice can guide you to find that out .Reading that it looks to me like you can choose a date and they must honour it .

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568294#Comment_119568294

Would it not be a better option to change your wifes parents plans. You take your paternity leave when the baby is born - honestly this is the best option for you to bond as a family. Work is very unlikely not to allow you time off for the birth and those first weeks. Bringing home your first baby is special and life changing - it would actually be a pain in the ass having other people in the house ( even if you get on with them). I love and get on great with my mother but I actually found her really annoying and actually unhelpful when I had my babies as she is from a different era and the advice is different to when she had babies. Your wifes parents should come over when the baby is a month or 2 months old after you go back to work.

Your wife will need you in those first few weeks after birth - she doesnt need anyone else being honest.

Princess Calla

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568294#Comment_119568294

It's not that you are doing anything wrong, you are technically correct and within your rights to apply for leave anytime within the first 6 months.

However you a picking a time when your company has an embargo on leave "because it's what your wife wants".

When we did antenatal classes we were told to close all doors and refuse visitors for the first two weeks as that's the most important bonding time for parents and finding your routine.

To me (as a mother who has survived this....as it is pure survival) it would make much more sense for you to take the time off work the two weeks following the birth and have the grandparents coming later.

Unless you have two spare rooms one for you and one for the grandparents you will not be fit for work the next day (especially by day 3) if your sleep is continually disrupted by a new born. It's tough, people joke about it but there's a reason sleep deprivation is used as a torture method.

Andrea B.

In relation to your work, is it a case of a North Pole Elf looking for December off?

Can you interpret why your employer does not wish to have absences during this period, and share them here?

Yes, the law is the law, but sometimes an ass.

...Ghost...

PC is right. While you can force the issue, you need to get real here. You are the father and you really should be there for the first couple of weeks. Your Wife perhaps doesn't realise how much hassle she may be creating for you and your employer and she doesn't realise how much you will be needed after the birth. You should be there...not her parents. After the first couple of weeks, things become a little more routine. You should be making these decisions together and not allowing your Wife (who is likely very emotional and not thinking as clearly or as rationally as she might otherwise be) to put you in the bad books with your employer by choosing difficult dates they have banned for annual leave.

Capajoma

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568382#Comment_119568382

My wife is foreign and her parents are coming from abroad, everything has been booked and paid for so unfortunately it would be impossible to change, I'm also on AL around the time of the birth so if everything goes to plan I should be around for a period.

Capajoma

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568393#Comment_119568393

We do have 2 spare rooms fortunately and my wife is foreign and really wants to see her mother as she hasn't in years due to the pandemic. Flights and all have been booked. I'm around the due dates due to AL, I realise it could be born before or after but I'm fortunate to have a friend who is willing to swap shifts with me if needed as I've done similar for him in the past so I've no fear of not being around for this period.

iamwhoiam

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568474#Comment_119568474

If you want your PL at Christmas and it’s difficult for your employer I would be re thinking it and adjusting your time off . When is the baby due ? When are her parents coming ? Then if she goes over due you will all have to re think it

Capajoma

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568403#Comment_119568403

Sure, it is around this period, yes, although im still working Christmas Eve and Christmas Day and the requested paternity isn't until after this so I feel like im doing my fair share and I've worked Christmas Day for them the past 5 years also, so I've no remorse about the chosen dates as my wife will be alone without family during this period and has spent Christmas Day alone for the past 5 years also.

Capajoma

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568445#Comment_119568445

I already have AL around this period so I should be there.

Capajoma

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568486#Comment_119568486

I have so much AL to use due to pandemic, I'm only working 2 weeks in October and November, so I feel significantly covered for the birth and I also have a friend I work with who is happy to swap shifts if needed.

Augme

Don't bend to your employer. It's their job to be able to run a business competently and that involves being able to allow for leave all your round. Their are lazy businesses that will cut corners and refuse leave around certain busy times because they don't want to properly manage things. Don't reward their incompetence. Also, if it suited them, they shaft you and that's the reality of it.

iamwhoiam

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568530#Comment_119568530

Fair enough but I think then you could manage to shift the parental leave a week or two until it suits the work place.

Princess Calla

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568511#Comment_119568511

So you're using annual leave at a time when parental leave should be used....if we follow the spirit of what parental leave is for.

Then using parental leave at a time when annual leave is forbidden by the company.

That's certainly calculated isn't it.

It's actions like this that ruin a good thing for everyone!!

Still stihl waters 3

Surprised at the support for the employer here, are people such fools to think they're employer is so important as to put their job above the wishes of their family and new born baby that they'd bend to the employers demands, especially when required to honour the leave asked for, some people are spineless

Op do what you need to do to be there for your wife and baby, as another poster said get everything in writing and nail them in the wrc if they want to act the cnut

FoxForce5

You are entitled to take paternity leave , imho men are useless during the birth and subsequent few weeks when woman is nursing, more so when mother has a female support network i.e mother in law. Btw that's not my opinion, that's the opinion of virtually every mother over the last 300000 years 😂

Still stihl waters 3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568176#Comment_119568176

That's a pitiful way of looking at things, do you regularly put your employer above the needs of your family

Andrea B.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568501#Comment_119568501

Thanks. I was using the elf and Xmas as an example, but it is a coincidence.

Anyhow, is it possible to sit with the decision-maker and explain predicament and ask if ye could come to a solution that works?

No harm in asking them to "put your hat on".

Of course, you are legally entitled, if you wish to use that card.

Capajoma

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568581#Comment_119568581

They are forcing me to use AL before end of December or lose it, I've had AL cancelled twice this year by my workplace due to the pandemic they cited and I can't use it in December and have it taken for September, October and November. What else am I supposed to do? They also want me to work Christmas Eve, Christmas Day, St Stephens Day, New Years Eve and New Years Day, i'm the only employee working all these dates.

iamwhoiam

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568618#Comment_119568618

He is off for the guts of two months anyway around the birth so in my opinion could be a little flexible after that . If you read the post he is taking annual leave around the time of birth and then parental leave at a time when annual leave wouldnt have been sanctioned ? Well worked out as I see it .I had three babies when fathers had no leave and managed .While its brilliant now to have that support it is very do able and managable if he is a tad more flexible . Just my opinion .

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568625#Comment_119568625

You work in hospitality don't you. Christmas is the busiest time of the year. Working Christmas is a given in hospitality and that's why leave isn't allowed at their busiest time. ITake all your Al and paternity leave before the Christmas period.

Augme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568581#Comment_119568581

Paternity leave should be used anytime in the first six months. That's what people are legally allowed do. What the OP doing is perfectly legal, what his company are doing is illegal. Suggesting the OP is at fault and should bend the the illegal requests of his employer is absurd.

It's actions like that, that ruin employment conditions for everyone.

Princess Calla

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568625#Comment_119568625

Well fight it so , the law is on your side.

Remind them of the leave that was cancelled.

Remind them of the shifts you're doing ....though don't know why all the premium days off around Christmas are falling on you.

See where it goes....some managers have goldfish memories when it suits them and a polite reminder can get you what you want.

OP unless this is the only employer in town, take the time when it suits you and your family.

Your employer will get over it.

'It's actions like this that ruin a good thing for everyone!!'

Such begrudgery, shaming a new father for taking statutory leave when it suits his family.

Still stihl waters 3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568634#Comment_119568634

Forced to take annual leave, they've refused AL twice, they can't have it every way, and because you've had 3 kids and "managed" everyone else should do the same

Capajoma

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568640#Comment_119568640

No, I work in healthcare, as I've said before im working this year too, Christmas Eve and Day included, and worked the past 5 Christmas Days, not being with my wife for any of it and without complaint. I'm just now want to take my paternity leave around this period whilst still helping out and working some difficult dates as my wife doesn't want to be alone for it all with the child.

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568666#Comment_119568666

No way healthcare would make you work all the important days over Christmas or ban leave at Christmas.

iamwhoiam

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568660#Comment_119568660

Nope thats not what I said at all . No need to be abrasive

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568581#Comment_119568581

Load of nonsense. OP is entitled to take paternity leave at a time of their choosing within 6 months of the birth.

You wouldn't dare raise a fuss over a woman taking maternity leave at an "awkward" time but the need for cover is exactly the same. It's entirely the employer's problem, not the employee's.

Pure sexism.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568625#Comment_119568625

Wow. They're being totally unreasonable.

CrookedJack

OP you are completely within your rights to take this time off at a time that suits you and your family. It is your employer's job to manage their staff during their busy periods, not yours. If they haven't managed to build enough slack into their rosters to allow people to have children and so take their entitled leave that is their poor planning, not yours.

This is not annual leave, this is not a baby holiday, it's your legally mandated paternity leave. Inform them in writing, at least four weeks in advance, and then it is up to them how they cover for you. They do not have the right to deny your leave, and would lose any WRC case if they tried.

Also ignore everyone telling you to change your times or plans etc. They have no idea about you or your family, you know what works for you and yours.

Akrasia

The employer is being unreasonable. You have given 4 month's notice for them to arrange cover and you are entitled to take that leave.

JayRoc

In ten years will your employer remember this, assuming you are even in the same job? Of course not.

Why in the name of god would anyone put a job ( and a job they don't seem to be happy in) ahead of their family? Utter nonsense.

When I was younger and less sure of myself, I allowed myself to miss important things, moments that I will never get back, in order to keep employers happy. I will always regret that.

magicbastarder

Would be curious if it's the OP's manager or HR who have told him informally the leave will be denied. The manager may not know the ins and outs.

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568612#Comment_119568612

Considering most of us spend most of our waking hours at work during the week, it's prudent to work with the employer with regards to AL and PT rather than cite the law and dig your heels in. Being flexible usually works a whole lot better than bringing in the WRC....and I say this as someone who dragged an employer to the labour court in the past....and won.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568616#Comment_119568616

Blanket sexism much there? Speaking from experience as a man and a father; I consider myself to have been quite supportive during and in the weeks post birth. I was the man keeping my partner calm pre-labour. I was the one driving her safely to the maternity hospital. I was the one ensuring she was taken care of and not just left waiting until it was convenient for the nurses to pop their heads into the room. I was there during every birth, doing all I could to make her experience as comfortable as possible under the circumstances. I was the one who knew from experience when the midwives needed to get their gloves on (so to speak) and get into action. I was the one keeping everything together (with some family help) at home while my Wife recovered in hospital and bonded. I brought her and the baby what she needed 2-3 times per day and gave her a break when I was there, letting her freshen up etc.

When at home, for the first couple of weeks, I took over most of the HH duties and made sure my Wife could focus on herself and the baby. I was far from perfect, but I did my best and there was no PL available for me. I can say that the other fathers I know have been similar in their uselessness to me. Maybe you just found yourself a dud.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568625#Comment_119568625

Talk to the decision maker and mention the cancelled annual leave. Citing your legal rights might get you your way, but it won't bode well going forward. They probably have you working the Christmas and NY period because of your AL demands.

Mrs OBumble

OP just ro be absolutely clear: it is paternity leave you have applied for, and not parental leave or parents leave?

Because the names are similar, people sometimes mix them up - which can be a problem because the rules around them are quite different.

I would approach a discussion with HR on the basis that someone has got confused and is applying the wrong rules.

Princess Calla

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568696#Comment_119568696

The spirit of paternity leave is to take it when the baby comes home from hospital to bond as a family unit.

It was also acknowledged that unfortunately not all babies get discharged within 3 days of being born and some spend months in hospital. So the 6 months is there to facilitate this.

It's not supposed to be used to get leave when the company has a policy of no leave during a busy period,especially after a few months of a healthy birth. If the birth happened during this time I'd be telling the company I'm taking the leave, it wouldn't be a discussion.

The OP is perfectly within his rights to fight it and will probably win but at what cost? Will there be an unofficial black mark beside his name? Will he now get rostered for all the sh1tty shifts.

Like the place sounds extremely badly managed as it is, personally if my annual leave was refused twice my cvs would already be sent out.

I'm not even entering into a maternity vs paternity leave debate!

From Citizens Information:

Having problems taking paternity leave

If you have a problem taking your paternity leave, you should raise it with your employer first. If you cannot resolve the issue directly with your employer, you can make a formal complaint to the Workplace Relations Commission (WRC).

How to make a complaint to the WRC

If you have a dispute with your employer about paternity leave, or face dismissal over paternity rights, you can make a complaint to the WRC. You should use the online complaint form.

You should make your complaint within 6 months of the dispute taking place. The time limit may be extended for up to a further 6 months, if there was reasonable cause for the delay.

___

In your shoes I would also dust of my CV and look for a new employer with more respect for their employees and better working conditions. It sounds like this company treats you like a slave, denying annual leave, now paternity leave?

Maybe you could job seek and set up some interviews while on your annual leave, ready to move after your paternity leave. I would have no loyalty to an employer who treated me like this.

Capajoma

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568673#Comment_119568673

Its true, AL is stopped from the 15th until January, Im taking from the 26th, so i'm working up until Christmas Day and yes I've been cheekily put in all those days, as I'm a quiet person and have accepted it in the past they were hoping to that I would accept working all those days again.

Capajoma

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568789#Comment_119568789

My manager said they received a call from HR saying it can't happen. I have emailed HR asking for confirmation of my dates being denied but they replied in a round about way without confirming this, saying because they don't approve AL, it would be inappropriate to approve PL for me.

Capajoma

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568868#Comment_119568868

Just to clarify, I had never signalled my intent about paternity leave before I was told of my shifts for Christmas, it was being told this that made me consider using my paternity leave at this time as I wouldn't have any of the 24th, 25th, 26th, 31st or 1st with my newborn and wife, which I felt was unreasonable.

Capajoma

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119569055#Comment_119569055

Yes it is paternity, I'm aware that employers can request postponement and date changes for parental leave.

peacock_lane

Same as Mrs OBumble if I were you I'd email your manager/hr and reiterate the dates, advising that as it's paternity leave as opposed to to parental leave the dates are at your discretion (and not subject to negotiation by your employer) and it's important that you are there for your wife and child on such and such dates. Ask them to confirm by return email that the dates have been approved for paternity leave.

Sorry you have to go through this OP, I did think like Mrs OBumble it's possible (maybe not likely) that they don't realise you get to choose the dates and they can't disagree, but there are so many dodgy employers out there you'd never know. Keep your requests short and to the point and in writing! Hope all is well at home preparing for the new arrival.

FoxForce5

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119569291#Comment_119569291

Simple, email to line manager cc HR stating dates you are taking paternity leave. Follow up with copy of birth cert ignore all follow on correspondence on the subject. The law is 100% on your side ignore all this "spirit of the law" bs. Take your leave and if any blowback nail them to the WRC cross. It's an employees market OP.