Is Galway a City in Decline?

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121961179#Comment_121961179

Is that going to haplen though?

I dont think Mr Ryan is too fussed about building new roads.

Wompa1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121962226#Comment_121962226

I was being somewhat facetious. I have not worked in project management in many years, I have been fortunate enough to not even have to contribute to a rigid project plan in years but in my experience, when you plan a project you figure out your assigned resources, estimate the amount of effort and assess your risk factors. The major risk factors are abundantly clear at this point which should make the time estimates ridiculous so if we have this 2040 goal and estimates we need to plan beyond that because by the time we are equipped for that growth we will have surpassed it. Its akin to knowing a certain department always takes 4 times longer than expected to complete a task and you realize you are powerless to change that so you account for it in your project plan…we need to plan around our inefficiencies and planning delays because it seems like there is no appetite to address them.

GBXI

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949715#Comment_121949715

I cannot believe there is anyone who doesn't think this would improve Galway. I am not saying it will solve all problems because it won't but it is a big step in the right direction.

• The thousands of people who live in Knocknacarra and work in Parkmore would not be using a city road, they would go straight onto the ring road and into Parkmore.
• Same for those living in Rahoon. Speaking of Rahoon, traffic will be freed up on the SQR by taking everyone in the growing Letteragh townland to the growing Knocknacarra Retail park via the new connecting road that will be built.
• Similarly, families with kids in Knocknacarra will be able to use this new road between Rahoon Road and the N59 to get their kids to the (hopefully soon-to-be built) Bish school in Dangan.
• It makes it much easier to have a dedicated bus route over the main bridge and up the Sean Mulvoy, and hopefully in time, this would become a tramline.
• It allows the nearly 5k people living in Bearna/Furbo to get to the M6 without going through the city.
• It allows the thousands of people (mainly in summer) who visit Connemara to do so without driving through the city from the east.
• It makes it easier for the city to grow around the ring road rather that sprawl indefinitely.
• Which in turn strengthens the argument for pedestrianized cores and one or two trams lines connecting the core to highly populated areas of the city.

Laviski

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121970826#Comment_121970826

but apparently some selective stats from over 10 years ago that only 3% cross the city… yet the only way to get to Connemara is through the city or clonbur…… that 3% is probably all the delivery vans and trucks to service all the shops and home deliveries.

the population of knocknaccara/barna/spiddal etc has jumped alot over the period.

New independent survey and all roads should be included not just the primary and secondary routes. the rat runs practically make the back roads one traffic in the morning and evening.

Unrealistic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121971144#Comment_121971144

A) How would you define independent and how do you perceive the study you reference as not having been independent?
I believe the study was commissioned by both the City and County Councils and overseen by Arup as part of the planning application for the Ring Road. They were hardly motivated to understate the number whose journeys seek to bypass the city when they were looking to get the Ring Road through the planning hurdles. If there was any suspicion of a lack of independence surely it would be in the opposite direction, that the need for a Ring Road would be overstated.

B) Why do you think not all roads were included?
My understanding of the methodology is that they bought in anonymised phone location data rather than putting counters on main routes. So if your phone started its journey in Moycullen, it didn't matter whether it came in the N59 or travelled the backroads around Corcullen to enter the city, it would still be counted just the same.

Laviski

when they come up with 3% from east to west, i question their whole methodology and data regarding the benefits of the ring road. 3% from east to west… which i again i point out the amount of business and homes that would need deliveries 5/6 days a week for everything west of the corrib? that alone make the whole data stink.

those that are against the bypass use that figure as an argument against building int he first place. however, no benefit was highlighted to the benefits of the new infrastructure/connectivity put in place along the route - barna knocknacarra bailindooly parkmore as examples.

also regarding the rat runs, never seems any traffic monitoring in any year, so if they do not collect this info they do not see how bad it is….

Unrealistic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121972203#Comment_121972203

It would probably be helpful if you were to read things more carefully. How can you 'question their methodology' when you haven't even taking the trouble to understand the basic details of the study, never mind the methodology of it. 3% is the number who don't have a destination in the city. It is those who come from Connemara and cross the river and keep going out of the city, or vice versa. It is not, as you seem to be saying, a van that leaves Total Produce in Ballybane and delivers to a restaurant in Salthill. That's a pretty fundamental misreading of it on your part.

And as for your comment about not collecting the info on traffic on rat runs, how exactly do you expect to 'see' data being gathered from anonymised data of mobile phone movements.

Laviski

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121972383#Comment_121972383

a lot of the deliveries come from central distribution which is not based within the city. I did read a long while back, still stand that the 3% even 10 years ago is BS and like your username. Also who said anything about mobile phone movements?

There are way many more benefits of the ring road than just the bypass aspect of it over the negatives.

6541

Speaking as a Mayo man Galway city is definitely in decline.

what_traffic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121961615#Comment_121961615

Yes this can be thrown at planners for sure, but area's where there is space for bus lanes; take WDR for example, could easily have a BUS Lane from Cappagh Park all the way to the Deane Roundabout for about two decades now - but it aint going to happen any time soon based on the latest Bus Connects plan. Not heard of any plans to convert Sean Mulvoy or N6 Bridge to Bus Lanes post Ring Road. Its not a bad idea in long term - but very few people live along this corridor currently - this may change but could be another decade or two.

I honestly don't get how can you say Mutton Island was a good plan when 25 years later it is beyond expansion. In planning terms this is short term. Long term planning would have said to build it with the idea that the City would have a 150k population in 2050 when they were thinking of this in the mid 90's.

The density of Development has definitely changed in the City, but the County is the big problem. Its funnelling more cars into the City than it can handle. If City residents drove like the County cousins we would be in total gridlock.

Laviski

with galway bay polluted with the loss of blue blue flag for many years because of it, yes mutton island was good but built 20 years to late. which what i highlighted at the start of the post. Every decision any Councillor,TD, director of services etc is always reaction based, but the solution is always a half measure with funding used as the general excuse.

Blame should be firmly be put on planners and they should feel some heat. Problem with all council staff, once they are in they sit back. Aware of some of the dealings go on and its a joke, there is no accountability for f ups or simply doing their job.

why aren't we building up in the last 10 years? only see a number recent approvals (after revisions from council) for high rise then with appeals scaling them back further again.

WDR is a great example, what is needed there is a bus lane coming in that should start at least from clybaun hotel. It would go a great way to make the bus more attractive to take. as most days its all backed up.

TnxM17

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121970826#Comment_121970826

Firstly, I appreciate your genuine reply.

I'll respond over 2 posts, the first is of what I broadly agree with of the 8 points you raised. The second is some observations from other points you raised.

I agree a route linking Barna with the N6 should be built for the points you made. Also, local links should be built between Letteragh, Rahoon & the Knocknacarra shopping centre as well as any future projects like schools etc. However, you do not need to build a probably €1 billion motorway to achieve this.

Moreover, these should not just be "roads" but proper linkways that include other forms of travel like walking & cycling. Otherwise, it creates car dependency which will only add to the congestion as private cars are the least efficient mode of transport within a city.

TnxM17

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121970826#Comment_121970826

You claim that "thousands of people live in Knocknacarra and work in Parkmore". I would dispute this number, but let's say that its true. Will they as you claim, "go straight onto the ring road and into Parkmore"? And the answer is, of course not.

How can I be so sure of this - because Parkmore is not designed to take such a volume of private motor vehicles. Even if a quarter of the vehicles you claim make that journey in and around the same time that's a potential backup of 1km (250 vehicles at 4m which I think is being generous) on the GCRR as they try and filter into Parkmore and thats before you add in all the other traffic that has joined or tried to exit from the N59, N84, N83.

And this was your strongest argument for the GCRR- because we haven't covered how it will make little difference to those who work within the city or other high employment spots like the hospitals, the University etc

what_traffic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121974772#Comment_121974772

Yes this is the great weakness of the GCRR and why NO concrete proposals where ever given for where the reallocation of FREED up space will occur once it is built.

Parkmore businesses did a survey of workers a no of years back - more workers were coming from outside the City and in the main were using car, City employees far more of a mix of transport modes as expected.

Unrealistic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121974139#Comment_121974139

You clearly still don't get it. Even if deliveries are coming from Sysco in Oranmore to a restaurant in Salthill they are not included in the 3%. They are included in 7% originating from outside of the city east of the Corrib with a destination inside the city west of the Corrib. The 3% is only a measurement of the journeys that originated on one side of the Corrib outside the city limits, crossed the river in the city, and then exited the city on the other side without stopping in the city.

This is the breakdown of journeys from that study.

If you really believe that the 3% has been understated, please identify which of the other measurements have been overstated to achieve that. And please explain what earthly rationale those promoting the ring road could possibly have for wanting to understate this measurement.

As for "who said anything about mobile phone movements", I said it. I said it because that was how the study was conducted. (Arup clarified this at the oral hearings.) So your comments about there never seeming to be traffic studies done on minor roads is irrelevant as you could not possibly 'see' this data being collected from minor roads when it all happened at somebodies desk using data bought from mobile phone networks.

what_traffic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121974935#Comment_121974935

Even if we round up to 5% i.e 1/20 who want to goto Spiddal to Oranmore and Vice-Versa, what about the 19/20 who are NOT. Whose destination is into the City. ARUP's data shows this to be the case on all the approach roads. The City is the destination, people coming from the County are NOT bypassing it - I can only think they have included this info so they can say in 2045 (if the GCRR is built) - well we told ye so; when we inevitably are back to the same problem again.

GBXI

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121974863#Comment_121974863

Again, this not a reason to not build the road. The notion that because there isn't a more all encompassing plan - and in fairness to the GCC, they reference many times in the plans the long term focus of moving to a more multi-modal system - we should oppose something that, on the whole, is good for Galway. Galway (and Ireland) is moving towards a more pedestrian/cycle friendly city centres, there is no doubt about that. This doesn't prevent that, it more than likely accelerates the pace by making it easier to leave everything inside the current N6 route for bus/cycle (hopefully tram in time) priority.

I actually think the whole thing has been blown way out of proportion. The reaction to it potentially being built is like something you would have seen in the 70s if a nuclear power plant was proposed. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

GBXI

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121974772#Comment_121974772

The plans have provisions for improving the access to Parkmore (and Ballybrit) with a new roads that will link to the ring road. Parkmore access will be improved by this road and the current ongoing bus lane additions.

The hospital and university (massive employers as you say) are so far inside the core of the city that this road couldn't expect to directly have a material impact on their traffic. But the new road is much more likely to make feasible for improved bus lanes to these employers than without the new road. Again, everyone who is this seems to be because it is not perfect. Don't let perfection be the enemy of good.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121975773#Comment_121975773

Parkmore as destination cannot handle that volume of cars. Hell it can't even handle the current volume of cars. Even if you built a motorway connection going right into Parkmore road, it could not handle the volume of cars.

No matter how many roads feed cars into Parkmore, they will all suffer congestion and be backed up out of Parkmore onto the roads themselves. The ring road will be exactly like this from the day it opens.

Parkmore access will not be improved, because the only way to improve Parkmore access is by removing cars and reallocating space to more efficient modes of transport (i.e. the bus). And the ring road will not help that reallocation of space, it will hinder it.

TnxM17

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121975773#Comment_121975773

Just to recap this chat started because you said the GCRR would "definitely improve things" - in fact you sounded incredulous that someone would query that.

Yet now you acknowledge that the GCRR will have no material effect to either the hospital or university.

You don't need to build a €1 billion road to reallocate space. You just reallocate the space to public transport which is a more efficient form of transport. Which would help improve the city as it literally chokes with private car traffic.

what_traffic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121975666#Comment_121975666

Have said it before on threads here related to the GCRR - if there were actually CONCRETE plans (not ifs, buts and maybes) that showed what would happen to all this FREED up space once GCRR is built I would be a BIG supporter. If we could see big road space reallocation to more efficient modes then I could get behind it.

Just look to Moycullen and Oranmore - nothing has happened with the FREED up space that the bypasses there have provided.

what_traffic

To bring thread back to original OP.

Galway City is NOT in decline.

gym_imposter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121921827#Comment_121921827

Galway City is incredibly smug and the county incredibly cliquey, gimme Limerick any day over either

Limerick also has traffic that moves , the place also looks like a city with Georgian architecture and wide streets with tall buildings, Galway City is a town that got fat

zell12

Clearly Galway is not a city in decline, as Fine Gael Ard Fheis is here tomorrow, y'know the party that's been in power since 2011 😉

ben.schlomo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121978111#Comment_121978111

You talked to "the city" and found it smug, is it?

what_traffic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121978136#Comment_121978136

Is Hildegard the main host then as the sitting FG? or how does the powerplay's of these Ard Fheis occur?

Mrs OBumble

Galway City is a town that got fat

That's an interesting phrase with a lot of truth in it.

GBXI

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121976505#Comment_121976505

That's absolutely not what I said and it would absolutely improve Galway, just to be clear.

GBXI

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121978099#Comment_121978099

But those villages are all the better for having the by-passes and surely the case is made stronger for the reduced car access in the centres by having a bypass and much harder without it.

Anyway, to the OP, Galway City is absolutely not in decline. My point was more about doing everything possible to help it grow.

TnxM17

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121978948#Comment_121978948

Well, you have yet to show any way it would improve Galway IMO.

10 years ago, I would have been all for a ring road, but having read up about it and looked at what's proposed it has changed my view. But like @what_traffic stated if there was an obvious benefit, or it was part of a coordinated plan to improve the city and surrounding area then it could certainly change my mind.