Is Galway a City in Decline?

breezy1985

In terms of population booms people go where the jobs are and it has nothing to do with how "nice" a place is.

It's funny the negative comparison to Limerick because here in Limerick people use Galway as a stick to beat themselves with in regards to Limerick "being a city in decline"

All cities are having similar problems with no easy solutions. Thankfully Ireland is a bit behind as usual and hopefully we can do something before we become like the UK where Galway/Limerick sized cities really have been gutted and are nothing but the same few chain pubs and coffee shops replicated over and over.

Glenomra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121922400#Comment_121922400

Fair enough. it was a draw between them last weekend which is probably a fair result. Maybe later in the summer there might be a winner. 😂😂😂😂

GBXI

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121921049#Comment_121921049

The Galway city measurements do not include Oranmore - which is rapidly growing, or Bearna, two of the largest residential areas (total population nearly 10k).

Honestly, I think it is really hard to measure the growth of a city like Galway which sprawls so much. I'd easily wager that because of our lax planning laws (to-date) that as many as 90k people live within a short commute (40mins or less) of Galway city and they work in the city itself. So the population of the city including Oranmore and Bearna is approx. 100k. but there are 10s of thousands living close to and relying on the city that are not included in that number. Hence, the traffic problems!

Galway is the economic engine of the West and needs to realize that more. Build the ring road. Build the primary care centre in Westside and then improve UHG. Absolutely build Augustine Hill. Twin track the railway line all the way to Athenry. Pedestrianize everything from Eyre Sq west to the Claddagh and from Merchants Road to the Cathedral.

berrecka

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121922617#Comment_121922617

I love this last paragraph so much. Apart from the ring road, which needs to be left in the past. God though, Id love to see a Council with a bit of balls to pedestrianise the lot like that.

Regarding the population figures,

• Galway County was 193,323 in 2022, and 179,390 in 2016, so up by about 8% (excluding the City).
• The target for the City was 98,700 by 2022, up from 75,529 in 2011, I don't know if that was reached

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121922746#Comment_121922746

Yes the ring road which should have been finished by now is a dead duck. Need something now, one way systems (had it for a while) new bridge/widened ones and pedestrianisation of the centre except for public vehicles...

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121922617#Comment_121922617

You hate old people who live inner city so much that you want to deprive them of their homes?

ben.schlomo

Please, for the love of God, don't let anyone bite!!!

what_traffic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121922617#Comment_121922617

It has spawled, but I think the planners are finally realising this at long last, hopefully see a lot more high density construction within City boundary the next decade and along the main transport corridors. This will make trams viable into the future. There are alot of Brownfield sites in the City that are still underutilised. The traffic as you correctly point out is in the main because of the non-City commuters. The *City residents who in fairness are switching more to public transport as every year passes but still need more priority schemes to make it even more attractive mode of travel.

*add clarification that City residents are using more public transport more often

GBXI

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121924999#Comment_121924999

They definitely have it under control now but it will take decades before the population density improves significantly. And yes, more of the right type of housing is being built in the right locations - especially if they complete Augustine Hill. Completely agree on the brownfield sites, they're everywhere in the city - Dyke road plans are a prime example. And yes, public transport has easy, low-hanging fruit improvements that can be made that will make a difference. However, the road should still absolutely be built. It would one of the best pieces of infrastructure ever in Galway. Galway is not in a place to just turn its nose up at a 600-800m investment like that. Most importantly it allows the city to grow into the future.

Glenomra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121925552#Comment_121925552

Presuming that the road is built, how long in your opinion before it is operational.

what_traffic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121926074#Comment_121926074

Depends on how fast they want to build it; but based on current design it's going to be North of 1 billion euros, but a decade away at least if it does get the go ahead. Spending a billion on a tram system would actually be a far better long term investment IMHO

Glenomra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121926192#Comment_121926192

Surely a decade wait , a period during which it looks like we will be very well off as a country, will really stmie Galway's development.....

GBXI

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121926074#Comment_121926074

Not sure I get the question. Once the road is built, it will be operational immediately.

The question is how long until it is actually built. Lets say it gets approved by the end of 2025 (ambitious I know), construction could start in 2026, then it could be built before 2030. That's a best case scenario.

I'm not in anyway against a tram system, if done well that would be great too. But the notion that we should scrap something that has taken up so much planning and resources in favour of something which at this point will definitely take longer doesn't make sense to me. There is no reason why Galway cannot have both of these things in the next 20 years. Still, I think the road has to be built at some stage either way and there is no better time than now.

what_traffic

This is what I consider short termism, ya the Ring Road will make a difference the first decade 2030-> 2040; but then onwards we would be back to square one again unless there was a radical distribution of that freed up road space on the existing network to other more efficient transport modes - but there are NO real plans for that.

what_traffic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121926316#Comment_121926316

No it won't. There is currently and will be lots more Development in the City in the next decade, the density of that Development is the key, we need to go back to levels that we had 40/50 years ago when we were more like a typical European City/Town

Wompa1

There was an article recently reporting that some leaders and planners visited Copenhagen and Utrecht. Utrecht is a public transport and cycling utopia.

Utrecht famously got rid of its motorway that went right through the center of the city but if you look at the road layout, it has a ring road that goes all along the outside of the city and across the north and crossing south. When you use the train there or anywhere in the Netherlands going between cities, you will see a mix of cars parked at small train stations with people getting on and/or people boarding with bicycles from those stations.

Copenhagen does not have a complete ring, it instead has partial ring roads since it is on the water. This is similar to how the Galway ring road is proposed to be more of a semi-circle but Copenhagen has a similar layout to many US metro areas. They have multiples large roads that you can exit off to get to areas around the city or optionally into the city. Importantly, imo both have hospitals in the Centre and outside the initial ring road. There are services for those well outside Copenhagen to get to without going into the denser areas.

If you look at places to live in Utrecht, a lot of people (some of my friends included) live 15km+ outside the city in less urbanized areas which can also be cheaper to rent and buy in. Which by comparison could be Moycullen, Spiddal, Kilcolgan etc. but over there they are also serviced by train lines, they have major roads to drive on to get into the city or rather the outskirts to then hop on a train and the result seems to be that the areas along the train lines get built up and become more affordable which is something David McWiliams has talked about before. Where public funding builds infrastructure. Some people may lose homes and then others have homes close by that become more valuable just by way of being close to the train line.

All that to say, if we're predicted to have a major population increase and we are using these kinds of cities as the template. We still need the ring road.

tobefrank321

I don't think Galway City was ever perfect. It has its flaws. But its a nice place all the same.

For me the main downside is the traffic. I think most would agree with that. Something like a Luas would work wonders, but the city is so spread out and low density it's unlikely to happen anytime soon. And even if it did, the attraction to a car is too much for most people. Big county, with many people attracted to the city for work is a huge problem.

Aside from that, Galway still retains its charm. The rain is of course the other problem. Possibly the addiction to travel by car and the rain are related issues!

GBXI

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121937013#Comment_121937013

I don't agree it is short-termism. It would be like saying the M50 was bad for Dublin - it's a crucial part of their transport infrastructure. But I agree that there should be a plan to improve the city centre too. In fairness to the powers that be, I think that they are moving in that direction but maybe more piecemeal than we would like. Augustine Hill, new pedestrian/cycle bridge at Dyke Road, Dyke Road development, Sandy Road development, and the new bus connects plan.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121946275#Comment_121946275

There is an opportunity cost to infrastructure. If the M50 had not been built, some other transport infrastructure would have been built instead - perhaps the metro being proposed for over 40 years may have actually been built, which would have done far more for traffic and the city in general than a multi lane ring road.

The same applies to GCRR - if it was dead and buried things like commuter rail, proper bus lanes and segregated bus network, or even a tram system could have been well advanced.

Instead we are told: wait till the new road is built, then it will have freed up space in the center for public transport. Except that isn't how it works in the real world - we have real world examples of what happens when you build new distributor roads, and it actually increases traffic due to induced demand.

The GCRR project is strangling Galway city and until it's dead and buried it will continue to do so.

what_traffic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121946445#Comment_121946445

Instead we are told: wait till the new road is built, then it will have freed up space in the center for public transport. Except that isn't how it works in the real world - we have real world examples of what happens when you build new distributor roads, and it actually increases traffic due to induced demand.

100% agree

We have examples in Galway of this, Moycullen, Tuam and Oranmore / Oranmore Coast Road. They all have been "freed up" with bypasses. What happened with the freed up space - nothing changed. Limerick probably even better for scale comparison, its trying to catch up with Galway City on walking, cycling and public transport no's even though it has had a bypass for over a decade now.

There are no plans that go in tandem with the GCRR for this freed up space so yup the resulting result is induced demand. If there was real serious transportation engineering solutions to go in tandem with GCRR - I could get behind the GCRR, it would actually future proof if it had.

Original M50 is a good example of induced demand where they had to go back and redo junctions and add lanes within two decades of it been built. Will get same issue with GCRR in we follow that model.

rustyfrog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121941800#Comment_121941800

If only they'd build this, then the city would be freed up of traffic and we could make a start on public and active transport for the city.

Wait...

GBXI

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121946445#Comment_121946445

Economics may present this as a principle but this is all very idealistic - the notion that if something doesn't get built something else even better would have been built instead. It doesn't always work like that in real-life politics. The M50 is and was needed in Dublin, as is a modern ring road in Galway. All developed cities in the world have these, and the best have good public transport too.

The same applies to GCRR - if it was dead and buried things like commuter rail, proper bus lanes and segregated bus network, or even a tram system could have been well advanced.

This is even more idealistic. If it does get quashed it won't be for another year when this government's term ends and then you'd have to start some new plan for "commuter rail" or a "tram system". The opportunity cost of opposing a road project that would definitely improve things is time that the people of Galway have to live without an improvement. Galway does not have enough purposeful roads to meet its current demands so it doesn't have to worry about "induced demand" - it is already there. All that happens in the meantime while different bodies try 'kill and bury' it is that Galway misses out on investment, housing, and growth. And it needs to grow.

TnxM17

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949386#Comment_121949386

"The opportunity cost of opposing a road project that would definitely improve things is time that the people of Galway have to live without an improvement. Galway does not have enough purposeful roads to meet its current demands so it doesn't have to worry about "induced demand" - it is already there."

I am genuinely intrigued as to how you believe Galway would improve if the current planned GCRR is built?

what_traffic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949386#Comment_121949386

Galway does not have enough purposeful roads to meet its current demands so it doesn't have to worry about "induced demand" - it is already there

Yes its already here(induced demand) and building GCRR we will end up in the exact same spot as today in about 20-25 years time. This is how induced demand happens. We need a car traffic reduction strategy to bring down the existing demand. Hard for people to grasp this but taking just 20% of current demand off the current peak network demand is required. We see it at Easter Holidays and Mid-Term when peak school demand traffic is gone the effects of this on the existing network.

Need bus priority measures in the City and approaches to the City.

what_traffic

The biggest thing holding Galway City back right now today is insufficient wastewater treatment capacity. The very small Mutton Island was never ever a clever location for such a facility. Going to need a NEW one East of the City

Wompa1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121948283#Comment_121948283

Both…why not both? Build a ring road, plan for parking facilities and train stops for a future light rail. Do some honest to God future planning. They still haven't replaced all of the roundabouts and if anything traffic is worse than before they started. When they started planning 20+ years ago did they account for the expected population in 2040? We have **** representation in Galway.

Lord Baron Lane 8

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121921172#Comment_121921172

Galway City needs a ring road fast to catch up with other Irish Cities

Laviski

everything completed in galway is what was scoped for galway needed 20 years prior. the galway city planners are a shambles for letting certain building get built without allowing scope to widen roads to facilitate bus lanes etc. taking initiative is non existent, they are also crap

mutton island treatment plant was a good decision but built way to late as when it opened it was already near capacity.

if the ring road proceeded the first time around it would be built by now and we can look at proper public transport by taking the dual carriageways today and change them into single lanes with bus lanes.

that new pedestrian bridge should have been a road bridge. if if the plan is to make the existing bridge bus only, making it a road bridge would have been better for buses as take out that sharp S corner and safer for all concerned.

Wompa1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121961615#Comment_121961615

Bingo. Plans die out in planning or get dragged out in the planning phase for years then they drag out again during construction. The ring road should be getting built and a feckin' outter ring road should begin planning too knowing it will take forever to get completed all while short term and long-term public transport should be sorted too. When the GLUAS was first proposed, I was in the camp thinking Galway is too small for it but now I am thinking it will take so long to complete that by the time it finishes, Galway will be big enough population wise for it to make sense. Spend that budget surplus ta f*ck!

rustyfrog

You're already calling for the next ring road? What about the one after that, would we be good then?