Teachers working over summer

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119585540#Comment_119585540

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/educate-together-schools-massively-over-subscribed-31001877.html

Educate Together national schools are receiving up to six times more applications than they have available places.

BrianBoru00

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119586538#Comment_119586538

So, No you don't.

That doesn't support your claim that "An ET is far more likely to be oversubscribed than any other type of school. ".

The four schools referred to are in Dublin which has the most pressure on school places - There is over subscription for ALL school types. I don't believe and haven't seen any data which suggests an ET will be more popular.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/schools-in-south-dublin-among-the-most-oversubscribed-in-the-country-1.4370786

Oversubscription is primarily a geographic issue as opposed to religious or ethos based.

Hotblack Desiato

Nobody said there was not oversubscription in certain areas for all school types.

I don't believe and haven't seen any data which suggests an ET will be more popular.

If you haven't seen any data which suggests ETs are not more popular then what is this belief based upon exactly?

What about this?

https://www.thejournal.ie/primary-school-patronage-ireland-education-ruairi-quinn-853009-Apr2013/

22 of these areas will see the establishment of an English language multi-denominational school, with one area getting an Irish language school established.

Of the 22 English language schools, parents were in favour of an Educate Together patron in 20 cases, with Community National Schools to be established in the remaining two areas, to be run by the local VEC.

Plenty of anecdotal evidence from when ET admission was purely on application date of people putting children's names down at birth and still not necessarily getting a place. Does that happen in any Catholic non-fee-paying school?

BrianBoru00

You explicitly stated that ET schools are "far more likely to be oversubscribed" then posted an article presumably in support of this theory but which doesn't support it. Your making an unsubstantiated claim.

The link to the article with Ruairi Quinns picture also does not support that claim. Nor does it suggest that ET schools are more popular. It just confirms there is support for ET schools.

Anecdotal evidence - - naturally if there is a new option there will be a rush of people who want that option. And yes if a new catholic school was to open in South Dublin you can be guaranteed it would be oversubscribed too.

I understand the indoctrination worry of non religious parents but I think it's exaggerated. Personally I subscribe to the notion that the parents are the main educators of the child so it's up to them to educate them on their beliefs and explain that other people in their school don't believe in God but we do or vice versa.

Kintarō Hattori

I'd much rather teachers had a break away from the kids (I'm a parent). While I'm sure they love doing their job, a break away is healthy for both kids and teachers. I'd also like that the person whom I'm asking to educate my child, is as relaxed and looking forward to September as possible.

HazeDoll

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119598086#Comment_119598086

Are you saying you're a teacher, Jamsey?

HazeDoll

I don't think it's so strange that somebody would read your comment and wonder if you're claiming to speak from experience.

I see now that you have shoehorned comments on 'social migrants' into a number of threads.

A non-teacher, claiming that 'social migrants' have made teaching difficult. OK. I get it.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119598086#Comment_119598086

wtf is a 'social migrant'?

Faugheen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119598974#Comment_119598974

Another way to describe immigrants they don’t like.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119599151#Comment_119599151

cant see what the problem is with social children, surely that must be good for their peers!

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119598937#Comment_119598937

He thinks teaching is easy and anyone says it isnt can only be a teacher.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119595902#Comment_119595902

What is with the obsession with 'South Dublin' (i.e. specific very well-off areas of south-east Dublin) ? Only one of the schools mentioned in the article in post 92 is in 'south Dublin' but its catchment area is Irishtown and Ringsend as well as Sandymount.

If oversubscription is purely a function of geography / place shortages as you claim, then all types of school in the oversubscribed area would be oversubscribed equally. This is certainly not the case.

Very easy for the religious apologists to come out with the 'sure what's the harm' etc. angle as they so often do. The purpose of a catholic ethos school is explicitly to evangelise and indoctrinate. This is the reason the catholic church is hanging on to the schools for dear life, it's pretty much the only area of society they still have any influence. Have a look at the new "Flourish" curriculum which even some catholic schools regard as too extreme and are opting out of.

Would you happily accept any such assurances about indoctrination or opt-outs if the only place you could obtain for your child was in a muslim ethos school?

BrianBoru00

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119541347#Comment_119541347

If you're going to engage in discussion you really should read the other contributions correctly.

1. I don't think you understand the word "obsession". I mentioned South Dublin ONCE as according the article I linked it has among the most oversubscribed schools in the country
2. "If oversubscription is purely a function of geography / place shortages as you claim, then all types of school in the oversubscribed area would be oversubscribed equally. This is certainly not the case." I haven't claimed its purely a function of geography. But it is the predominant issue. Parents from the area may tend to send their kids to the school they went to. Some will want a Gaelscoile, some will want ET, some will want a protestant ethos school as their first choice. Again you've provided absolutely no data to claim that one type of school is more likely to be oversubscribed than another. And what defines how oversubscribed it is? Due to the shortage many parents are on several school waiting lists. If there's 80 places and 10 on a waiting list is that more or less oversubscribed than a 600 pupil school with a waiting list of 100. You're the one making it about religion.
3. "The purpose of a catholic ethos school is explicitly to evangelise and indoctrinate" - not really - from St. Mochtas national school website - a definition. " aims at promoting the full and harmonious development of all aspects of the person of the pupil: intellectual, physical, cultural, moral and spiritual, including a living relationship with God and with other people. " I think we can at least agree that any decent person wants their children to be developed according to that extract (up to the word including). . . Regardless of whether its muslim or catholic or ET we're looking for honest, caring, decent human beings. I'm not a religious apologist but the anti religious brigade have a massive bee in their bonnet over a trivial matter - see point 4.
4. Would I happily accept such assurances about indoctrination - Yes - because I AM the parent - Its MY RESPONSIBILITY to educate the child and raise him or her in accordance with MY WISHES. Schools provide valuable and important support but that doesn't (or shouldn't) give parents an excuse and thats back to the previous point - control the controllables - If my daughter comes home from her catholic school which was the only option available to us atheist parents and says she wants to make her communion with her class mates I sit down with her and explain that that isn't what we do in our family - we have a different belief system and sometimes that means not doing things which others do. If start whinging about it being so unfair that they're doing that in class and alienating her shes going to pick up on that. As a PARENT I will focus on the 90% of the stuff they do in school that isn't religious based.

Hotblack Desiato

If you're going to engage in discussion you really should read the other contributions correctly.

🙄

I don't think you understand the word "obsession". I mentioned South Dublin ONCE as according the article I linked it has among the most oversubscribed schools in the country

The religious apologists / status quo maintainers (same thing really) always go on about South Dublin as they desperately want to paint demand for ETs as "elitist" (a laugh when the by far most elitist schools in the country are religious order RC), "snobbery", "West Brit", etc. and want to deflect away from the massive and growing demand there is for non-church education throughout the country.

"If oversubscription is purely a function of geography / place shortages as you claim, then all types of school in the oversubscribed area would be oversubscribed equally. This is certainly not the case." I haven't claimed its purely a function of geography. But it is the predominant issue. Parents from the area may tend to send their kids to the school they went to.

Few of the parents looking for an ET for their kids had the opportunity to attend an ET themselves. 25, 30, 40 years ago there were hardly any. There's not a lot of them even today and the Dept of Education is still playing the obstructionist.

You're the one making it about religion.

Of course it's about religion, our education system and primary in particular is obsessed with religion. 96% of primary schools controlled by RCC and CoI, remember. That doesn't leave much for our rapidly growing cohort of non-christians now does it? And why should they have to go to a different school from their friends just to escape religious indoctrination, anyway? Schools should be for teaching not preaching.

"The purpose of a catholic ethos school is explicitly to evangelise and indoctrinate" - not really - from St. Mochtas national school website - a definition. " aims at promoting the full and harmonious development of all aspects of the person of the pupil: intellectual, physical, cultural, moral and spiritual, including a living relationship with God and with other people. " I think we can at least agree that any decent person wants their children to be developed according to that extract (up to the word including). . .

So if I do not agree with that church's definition of 'morality' I am not a decent person in your eyes?

If I do not accept the existence of a 'spiritual reality' or whatever other baloney they try to squeeze in under the nebulous feel-good term 'spirituality' I am not a decent person in your eyes?

Regardless of whether its muslim or catholic or ET we're looking for honest, caring, decent human beings.

Any school which seeks to prioritise pupils or staff on the basis of professed belief, or maintain that a particular unprovable belief system is superior to all other religious/philosophical stances, is being massively hypocritical if they then claim the above to be among their goals also.

Would I happily accept such assurances about indoctrination - Yes - because I AM the parent - Its MY RESPONSIBILITY to educate the child and raise him or her in accordance with MY WISHES. Schools provide valuable and important support but that doesn't (or shouldn't) give parents an excuse and thats back to the previous point - control the controllables - If my daughter comes home from her catholic school which was the only option available to us atheist parents and says she wants to make her communion with her class mates I sit down with her and explain that that isn't what we do in our family - we have a different belief system and sometimes that means not doing things which others do. If start whinging about it being so unfair that they're doing that in class and alienating her shes going to pick up on that. As a PARENT I will focus on the 90% of the stuff they do in school that isn't religious based.

A large proportion of catholic schools have shown that they do not respect the right of parents to opt their children out of catholic religious indoctrination. Many more give assurances and then do not abide by them.

Nobody should have to do the above though - tell their kids that yes, what the teacher says is usually true but this thing isn't - have their kids sit through masses and endless sacramental prep during the school day - then tell them they can't take part in the big day out everyone else has been obsessing over for months. Have them sitting at the back colouring in when others are singing hymns or being told religious tales. It's othering children, privileging some above others, undermining parental rights, and it's totally wrong.

There's a reason our education system is unique in the developed world and it's not for a good reason.

BrianBoru00

Jees thats some chip on your shoulder.

It's nothing to do with elitism. It's simply referencing an IT article outlining that South Dublin is "among the most oversubscribed" in the country.

Your point was the ET are far more likely to oversubscribed - they're not. Their is no data available to support that.

The OP was a teacher bashing comment, not referring in anyway to religion.

You also say "Schools should be for teaching not preaching".

For the record, I agree.

"So if I do not agree with that church's definition of 'morality' I am not a decent person in your eyes?"

Again, you don't read other posters comments, you seem to look at one or two words or phrases and deliberately take them out of context.

1. It wasn't a church I was referring to
2. It was a school and it wasn't a definition of morality it was an explanation of their ethos
3. Maybe I was mistaken and you don't want schools to cater to the harmonious development of your children including intellectual, physical and cultural and moral and spiritual. Was it the last word that set you off because my atheist friends still refer to their own spiritual wellbeing so I'm assuming there is more to it for most people than believing in God or Allah or Chairman Mao.
4. Not much point in further explaining - I didn't suggest that anyone was not a decent person, I simply referred to wanting the school to cater for the development of children through all of those strands.

"A large proportion of catholic schools have shown that they do not respect the right of parents to opt their children out of catholic religious indoctrination. Many more give assurances and then do not abide by them"

There you go again - big claim. No proof. No supporting evidence.

There is a change in attitudes and wanting non denominational schools. But the department of education surveys from a few years ago show that its something like 30% in Dublin areas want a change / wider choice, 30% dont and I guess the other 40% odd are indifferent.

And in that survey it acknowledges that there is scope for change in most areas BUT also makes the point that it may be difficult to achieve on a practical level. So you're going to say to the 40% of parents who DO NOT want a move that its tough luck, but the 38% of parents who want this school to change are getting their way. Now those 40% have to move schools but it doesn't suit and they now are forced to endure a non religious school when it was a large part of the reason they bought their house where they did - that isn't really fair to them.

But regardless of whether its fair or not change has to be made but it's not something that can or should be done over night and while it may be too slow for your liking its exponentially faster than changes over the previous hundred and fifty years of education in this country.

Opting out of religion is all well and good but every school in the country is struggling with lack of resources. And if I'm a principal I'm going to detail the SNA to spend more time with a child with additional needs than with the child who doesn't want to be exposed to religion, Why? because that child can colour (or read or build with lego or practice their handwriting while the rest of the class is being indoctrinated. Their parent can update them on their own religion or non religion.

"It's othering children, privileging some above others, undermining parental rights, and it's totally wrong."

Thats a fairly woke sounding statement. But again, I don't fundamentally disagree with most of it. There is a need to change but it has to be done on a gradual basis, not overnight.

But it's not undermining your parental rights - home school them. move to a different area close to a school of your choice, drive an hour each way to bring them to that school.

Or control the controllables. Make a balanced decision on schooling and if your choice of close available schools is not one with an ethos of your choice, suck it up and Parent - your responsibility to parent. But 90% of the school time makes no reference to religion. At second level it's higher again.

Regardless of all that I only commented initially as you incorrectly stated something as fact when it wasn't.

Hotblack Desiato

But it's not undermining your parental rights - home school them. move to a different area close to a school of your choice, drive an hour each way to bring them to that school.

Are you taking the mick? because that sort of supremely ignorant comment is impossible to take seriously.

Who can afford to homeschool? and it's anti-social anyway (look at the Burkes).

Move away from jobs and family? to a school which is full already?

2 hours a day in a car is child abuse in my book.

But yeah, "options". 🙄 Bullshít I've heard a hundred times before. At least you didn't suggest I should set up my own school, maybe next post?

It's in the Constitution. Every parent has the right to enrol their child in a school and not attend religious instruction. (Article 44.2.4)

96% of primary schools force children to attend religious instruction against parental wishes. Parents can in theory opt them out from participating but their child still has to attend it.

And of course I was referring to the "morality" of a church, above - because the patron is a church so the school's definition of morality in their "ethos" will be that church's.

You say that "any decent person will..." which is the lowest of the low in terms of rhetoric. I am a decent person. I do not align with the definition of morality espoused by any church. I do not agree that spirituality exists (nobody can even properly define what they mean by that word, it means whatever they want it to mean.) It's all handwavey nonsense used to justify the status quo which discriminates against families who don't belong to the big two denominations here, or to no religion at all.

There is no justification whatsoever for having religious instruction take place during the school day. That doesn't mean it can't take place in the school, just not during the school day. ETs do this and everyone is happy. But Catholic schools have the "integrated curriculum" where religion can be part of literally anything. Music = hymns. Art = holy pictures. History = religious fables. Etc. Dept. of Education is naturally perfectly fine with this.

BrianBoru00

Ok, I'm bored with you now so won't be replying again but.......

seeing as you're so fond of the constitution the same article 44 also states

"The State acknowledges that the homage of public worship is due to Almighty God. It shall hold His Name in reverence, and shall respect and honour religion."

Are you just going to again take subsets that you like from relevant laws or rules or guidelines as you're clearly anti Almighty God 😁

But yet again you seem to be arguing as though I'm saying the opposite -I'm not .

Who can afford to homeschool? and it's anti-social anyway (look at the Burkes). - My thoughts exactly

Move away from jobs and family? to a school which is full already? - Which is why I said suck it up -we all have to make holistic decisions

2 hours a day in a car is child abuse in my book. - In mine too

Why should people living in West Kerry have to travel 5 hours to the national children's hospital? Why isn't Letterkenny served by a railway? Why aren't 1 teacher schools with 4 pupils left open? Why doesn't the department with responsibility for sport ensure there is an indoor tennis facility within 20 miles of everyone in the country? Because we can't cater to everyone now. If my child is a tennis prodigy I have to bring them to the nearest facility an hour away every day or move the family there or get them to give up tennis. It's not rocket science. but I don't think that the funding for the local GAA, rugby and soccer teams should be taken away so that a tennis facility is built in the town.

"And of course I was referring to the "morality" of a church, above - because the patron is a church so the school's definition of morality in their "ethos" will be that church's."

The school didn't give a definition of morality - which AGAIN, IF YOU HAD READ the above you would understand. but you just want to refute points that I didn't make. 🙄🙄

You don't believe in spirituality - fair enough but a lot of people who do not believe in God or an afterlife speak of being spiritual. I don't understand what they mean by that either. But it's not my place to tell them they can't feel spiritual. In any case The Educate Together website outlines their curriculum which includes as it first strand - Moral and Spiritual - 😀

You should check that out and petition them to remove the spiritual part

"There is no justification whatsoever for having religious instruction take place during the school day."

That's really a different argument with a lot of historical weight as the justification. But as I've said or hinted at on a couple of occasions on this thread- I believe we should have a secular education system. But you seem like you're the "old man shouts at cloud" type getting irate over what amounts to less than 10% of the time.

And for the record Art isn't based on holy pictures -maybe a religion class gets to paint holy pictures but its not whats done in art class.

History teaches about historical facts through story in the primary curriculum and then in the JC spends a lot of time on the reformation and medieval period - those periods happened, there's no point ignoring the fact that people were more religious and that period has had a massive bearing culturally and politically so its only right it should be thought.

It uses stories to "become aware of the lives of women, men and children from different social, cultural, ethnic and religious backgrounds, including the lives of ‘ordinary’ as well as ‘more famous’ people" -

So continue shouting at clouds all you want -I'll leave you to have the last word as you clearly are unwilling or unable to debate and equally unable to provide data or accurate reference to support some of your "points"

Chill out. Live a little. put your energy where it matters. but most importantly - realise that you're responsible for your childs education - its in the constitution 😉

Hotblack Desiato

Because we can't cater to everyone now.

Yes we can. We absolutely can have schools which cater to everyone and don't discriminate. And even provide religious instruction for those who want it. The problem is that due to historical and present government cowardice, only about 3% of schools are like this, despite overwhelming parental demand.

Every child is not a tennis prodigy, and there is no law obliging a parent to ensure their child receives tennis lessons, but every child needs to go to primary school and we need to have schools which treat all children fairly.

In any case The Educate Together website outlines their curriculum which includes as it first strand - Moral and Spiritual 

Guess what, the Dept of Education requires them to say this. They will not fund non-denominational schools which is why they have to be multi-denominational and they are required to state how they provide for "moral and spiritual education".

Hotblack Desiato

This will be a very welcome move IF it ever happens. The Dublin diocese has long talked a great game about divestment, parish reforms etc., it never does anything though.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40963394.html