New doubt cast on Ireland's hottest temperature

Danno

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119364134#Comment_119364134

What exactly is the context of 'but there is no prospect of this station becoming one of the second order'?

First Order and Second Order are only different really in the amount of times of recordings/observations happen - perhaps also, the amount of instruments (though this varies anyways). Think of what we refer to Synoptic and Climatological stations. Our Synoptic stations (First Order) are typically hourly manual recordings - though automatic sensors now-a-days makes some of this manual work part-time (Knock Airport) or fully automatic (most stations reporting here: http://archive.met.ie/latest/reports.asp )

Our Climatological stations (Second order) are recorded at 9am UTC (10am IST) only - although on interesting weather days observers will look at recordings if they are available to do so!

Assuming the second order were the leading/official stations or something (may be wrong, second order sounds like a cult), then Mr. Scott found something odd with the Kilkenny station that it would never be upgraded, no?

Quite the opposite! Mr Scott found the Kilkenny station to be ran well, the observers keeping good records etc... that there would be no need to downgrade it to a climatological station.

I find it mad that there is nothing to be found on the stations exactly location. Surely somewhere, in some old record or paperwork, it's said exactly where it is. Would be a fun side project to try find it out once and for all.

I'm not aware of the exact location in Kilkenny Castle's grounds the station was located - I'm not sure if @StratoQ has ever found out, but I can ask them. It sure would be a great project to try and find out - perhaps there are very early day photographs in the Castle which might have inadvertently captured the setup?

Danno

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119364093#Comment_119364093

From all the hurling they do, there's hardly a blade of grass left in the county! 😂

John.Icy

EDIT: Thanks Danno. Found those definitions in the background there too. Though on this appendix it says Kilkenny provided C&F, which is pressure readings and that it was a climatological station already? So Scott didn't think there was a need (or ability) to provide 9am/9pm readings?

From my limited grasp of lat/long - these values are junk without the seconds ('') right? 52° 39' & 7° 14' covers quite a lot of ground of the castle. Would we assume the seconds were rounded up or down to the nearest minute on a 0-29 and 30-59 bases or something?

Alternatively if someone has the phone number for H.Carlton that would be great 😋

In reality I assume someone like StratoQ has tried his darndest to locate the station within the castle grounds already and had no luck.

sryanbruen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119364134#Comment_119364134

Stations of the second order were as follows, taken directly from the Met Office monthly weather report 1910.

As the Met Office archive is a bit of a pain in the arse to navigate, I have made a Drive of all the reports a while ago here for anyone interested.

John.Icy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119364458#Comment_119364458

Thanks Sryan, what are resource. You're a top man.

Now who's going to read through every single thing to look for any note or appendix clue that gives us a hint to where the station was! 😁

John.Icy

Report of the Meteorological Council 1884/1886. Some clues.

1886:

Seems generally well exposed if not close to trees from one angle. Not too much issue with that if PP is all good to Mr.Thorne?

This is the first mention in 1884 below. Sorry I got the years mixed up as the eBook had two reports in one and I didn't cop. To note Mr. Scott said he hoped Kilkenny would become a 2nd order...rather far from his remarks in 1890.

Further EDITS:

1896 (?), our Mr. Carlton is very carefully in Kilkenny measuring the weather.

1897; site was moved to a considerably better location compared to the previous. But the 1887 location was still considered well exposed bar one side no I don't think it's enough to be rubbishing the reading.

Danno

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119364570#Comment_119364570

Excellent work - so it seems Kilkenny didn't have the extra instrumentation to make it a Second Order station which from what I can make out is the wet bulb and wind speed and direction along with a more detailed report on cloud. So, climatological station is a step between second and third order using these older definitions.

At this south Laois climatological station, I observe once daily and note the following:

• Current air temperature at 9am UTC (10am during Summer time)
• Current wetbulb at 9am
• Maximum air over previous 24hrs
• Minimum air over previous 24hrs
• Rainfall amount from previous 24hrs
• Current 5cm soil temperature
• Current 10cm soil temperature
• Current 20cm soil temperature
• Grass minimum over previous 24hrs (basically an air min thermometer on pegs a half inch above grass tips)
• Current state of ground - i.e. dry, wet, damp, glaze, frozen, snow, etc...
• Snow depths
• Current cloud cover in Octas 1/8.......8/8

So, quite a bit to observe each day and alot more now than they did there in 1887! In addition I supply the dominant wind direction of the previous 24hrs and note any gales - but stress that this data on wind is from the Davis which is at standard 10m. I don't really know if they use that data at all though! :D

Some other climate stations observe sunshine and deeper soil temperatures also.

Contacted StratoQ earlier who thinks the station was located near where the current playground is. Back then it was a bowling lawn:

Using StratoQ's location would put it in the yellow circle, give or take. You mentioned above a report with concerns about a tree to the north and this would probably place it closer to the red circle.

That puts it ~142m away from the Castle itself and over 100m away from the southern wall of the castle. So, as you say - exposure wasn't really very much an issue at all with the exception of a tree north of there.

John.Icy

Had a bit more time and checked all other reports between the station beginning plus prior to moving it in 1897 and nothing else giving there. Station was either all good (dodgy rain gauge for a bit) or else the site was not visited.

Red dot could be a good shot Danno, it fits the long/lat. Below is a guide to those coordinates of interest as per these reports. It does extend a bit beyond the top of the box but for obvious reasons this wouldn't be where the site is (outside the castle grounds). Now this would be assuming the reporting was very exact but see no reason why it wouldn't.

Since we are only dealing with a ~10 year period not much hope of finding anything in the back of an image! 😁

'Moved to the lawn' would imply it began much closer to the castle originally and on the concrete surface. So a move to where StratoQ thinks seems very plausible. But if 'on the north' just means to the north of the station from where Scott was standing when he noted the trees rather than compass north maybe?

All in all yes, seems like we have no issue with the instrumentation and also no damning issue with exposure (or at worst, slight issue on one side but considered good nonetheless). Below is a response by Mr. Kilkenny weather himself:

https://kclr96fm.com/kilkenny-weather-expert-defends-long-standing-temperature-record-after-climatologist-casts-doubts/

^^ There are PHOTOS of the station??? Would solve all of the above whoever has them?

Last thing on it that's interesting is in the radio interview the mention of the rounding of the fahrenheit reading, so the Kilkenny temp may have been a little lower but even up to ~33.6c at a quick conversion.

Oneiric 3

Why does this Kilkenny record come up every single summer?

Bottom line is that this record is officially recognised by Met Eireann. People can speculate and cast doubt about it all they want, but who cares. They have little to be worrying about to be honest.

Gaoth Laidir

The OSI 6-inch maps show Kilkenny Castle as it was back around that time. The first edition is 1839-40 and the last edition is 1899-1902. No real change in layout between the two.

GeoHive Map Viewer

1839-40

1899-1902

Danno

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119366113#Comment_119366113

Interesting interview, thanks for sharing.

Would be very nice to see the photos as it would give better clues to the location in the castle grounds.

Danno

From: https://www.thejournal.ie/europe-ireland-heatwave-climate-change-impact-5821014-Jul2022/

Peter Thorne, climatologist and professor at Maynooth University, told The Journal that Ireland will also see the effects of climate change worsen in the near future.

“33.1°C has been reliably measured in Dublin. Regardless of whether it’s a national record, it’s the warmest that’s been reliably measured in Dublin. If you look more broadly across France, the UK, parts of Germany as well as Ireland, so many stations are breaking monthly or all-time records. This is not remotely normal,” he said.

“This is entirely consistent with what we’ve observed to date and what we expect to happen as climate change continues its course. I mean even that 33.3°C, if Met Éireann maintain that it must be the record, that’s going to break sooner rather than later. It’s just a matter of time and where it would be broken.”

“Maybe not next summer, maybe not the summer after that, but in a summer within the next decade or two… we will have heat extremes that are probably far worse in either duration, extent or magnitude than we are seeing right now, which is very much a flash, two or three-day heatwave.

It’s only a matter of time until we see something much worse unless we resolve to stop our heat-trapping gases emissions.

Unusual phrasing used when speaking to the B-Rated Journal.ie and he's wrong too - 33.0c is the record in Dublin, not 33.1c.

John.Icy

I gather from Twitter and Kilkenny Weathers page that Met Eireann have the photo of the site;

So next up would be; when was the photo taken and was it in the initial 10 year period when the record was set (and before the site moved again) & pretty please can we all see the photos.

https://twitter.com/kilkennyweather/status/1549058000832401408?s=20&t=gxZY5tU1kwGyiAhB3rODEA

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119366369#Comment_119366369

There is another map of killkenny from 1871. Cant read what it says as looking on phone but there is something written beside a piont circled in red

Hooter23

The air in the atmosphere is no warmer than its ever been...the only thing that is changing is the temperatures being recorded on the surface...and they are only going up because of all man made activity cities..buildings..roads etc....

CrowdedHouse

Was this actually 92’F ?

Furze99

You kinda get the feeling that the moment the Kilkenny 1887 reading is surpassed, that it'll be forgotten very very quickly by the powers that be. As it stands at the moment, it's an annoying thorn in the side, an inconvenient record.

Gaoth Laidir

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119368212#Comment_119368212

It's annoying Thorne alright!

M.T. Cranium

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119368135#Comment_119368135

I think so, 33.3 C is the conversion of 92F, so it may have been anywhere from 33.1 to 33.6 C as we don't have the decimal Fahr value that was rounded to 92F.

After reading this discussion, I have more confidence in it, obviously the castle itself was far enough removed that it played no role, and the site appears to be quite well ventilated. It is at least as reliable a location as Phoenix Park and better than tarmac city I mean Shannon.

I had a look at historical weather maps, the setup was generally easterly with high pressure not far removed, implying this was a day of sunshine and light winds. While there are no obvious signs of spectacular warmth, you could easily imagine a reading this high inland with a bit of a downsloping effect to assist.

Danno

Its ~45 miles from Cahore Point to Kilkenny City as the crow flies and that takes up right over Mount Leinster at ~2,625ft (~800m) which would be an almost east airflow

M.T. Cranium

I think some have a false impression that late 19th century measurements were flawed in some way, the science was well developed by that time and as we can see from the discussion here, the relevant authorities took care to maintain a clean shop. Even back to the period 1840-1860 I think the observations were done by very reliable people using more or less the same methods that are approved nowadays. And there was very little tarmac around in those days to contaminate readings.

If you've followed by research threads and gone over to see the Caswell (Providence Rhode Island) obs you'll see what I mean. That individual became a key part of the Smithsonian Institute and their standardization of weather observation in the mid-19th century. This was either parallel to, or a foundation of, the British system. I trust the numbers. Even back to the 17th and 18th century the numbers seem generally reliable since they tend to be correlated with what we know about agricultural issues. Of course, it's also part of a great unknowable, so we shouldn't stress too much about it.

Gaoth Laidir

A snip of the soil-types around the Kilkenny area. The castle lies within Zone 30, the sandy peaty grey brown podzolic soil that constitutes just 2.18% of the total area of the island of Ireland.

I don't have the rainfall data for Kilkenny Castle itself, but looking at other stations, 1887 ranked well up there in terms of drought, second only to 1921 in most cases. I wonder what the temperature data for 1921 showed for Kilkenny Castle. Of course, even with very dry sandy soils, they still needed the same clear skies around the Solstice as 1887 to generate the maximum heating possible, something that may not have occurred in this year and therefore didn't beat the 33.3. Does anyone have a source for the Kilkenny Castle rainfall and temperature dataset?

On another note, imagine what we'd have to listen to if droughts of this magnitude occurred today?

Gaoth Laidir

Just for interest, graphs for Birr, Enniscorthy and Mullingar for April, May, June and April-June precipitation totals from 1850-2010.

sryanbruen

Kilkenny Castle to my knowledge ran from 1884-1900 (temperature starting 1886) so was not in operation during the dry year of 1921. Also, I have done a post before on a notable warm spell in July 1921 which culminated in Killarney achieving 90F which would stand as the July record in Ireland until 2006 and subsequently 2022. This post can be found here. Note all the embedded charts I shown have been removed as of the new Boards.

Here's some of the maxima from 1921 (Celsius converted from whole Fahrenheit). All these figures are taken from the Met Office monthly weather report for July 1921. The warmest days tended to be around July 9th-13th with some exceptions but all places had their highest temperature of the year in July.

The Kilkenny station with a 30.0C figure in the map above is different to the Castle and has the co-ordinates: 52°39'N 07°14'W.

The same report gives the following rainfall totals by month in 1921 for the Kilkenny station named above. 44mm was recorded on 28th July alone.

Jan 88.4mm Feb 44.2mm Mar 67.3mm Apr 15.7mm May 49.0mm Jun 6.6mm

Jul 91.4mm Aug 115.3mm Sep 33.3mm Oct 61.2mm Nov 87.4mm Dec 28.7mm

Annual 688.5mm

This appendix of old Met stations gives the co-ordinates and elevation for Kilkenny Castle. I have also been onto the Met to see if they have a photograph of the Castle around 1887 as per what StratoQ said. Will wait and see if they will provide anything to aid this never-ending debate.

Danno

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119373677#Comment_119373677

The castle and the grounds itself sit rather high above the surrounding city and I suspect on top of a sandy ridge. This photo from the top of John's bridge, well above the river level:

This next photo is an aerial shot showing trees along the steep decline from the rear of the castle grounds down onto the river bank.

Know this area reasonably well.

Gaoth Laidir

Thanks, Sryan. I see that the station altitude is 55 metres amsl (180 ft). The 25-inch maps very accurately gave spot elevations in feet along the roads. The road running NW-SE to the south of the castle below shows spot elevations of 169, 179, 192 feet along the way. Taking the land near the 179 spot, maybe the area circled in red more accurately describes the possible area, in the gardens? I have never visited the castle so I have no idea how undulating the grounds are. Does the ground fall down on the easterly part of the grounds?

Danno

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119374112#Comment_119374112

Here is a decent enough panoramic Google Photo from inside the grounds - it's fully open to the public too if you ever get a chance to visit:

https://goo.gl/maps/hkytey87snzom88s9

Looking at the ridge on the lawn with the castle to your back, it falls off down as one heads east.

Gaoth Laidir

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119374203#Comment_119374203

Thanks. I certainly will be visiting it, it looks stunning.

Maybe Sryan will receive those photos and we can all put this to bed once and for all...

magicbastarder

last time i visted kilkenny castle there was a meteorological themed art installation in one of the basement sections; but that was probably five or six or more years ago.

John.Icy

I would note; if the station was the rose garden side, I feel like Scott would have noted the confines of the space perhaps, more specially than just trees on the north. In his inspection notes for the old Dublin Fitzwilliam Square station, he constantly referenced it was a confined space and sheltered. Fitzwilliam Square would be rather similar in size to the rose garden and both bordered by walls/trees. Fitz. perhaps denser border of trees which maybe pushed it over the edge and was why Scott frequently referenced the stations limited exposure. But food for thought.

If Met Eireann do have a picture and release it, it will be pretty obvious if it's in the rose garden as those old maps suggest it was always well kept. The grounds side in old pictures looks fairly wild and unkept in comparison.