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Spare barrels

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  • 18-07-2022 11:33pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,695 ✭✭✭


    How many people have a spare barrel for their rifles?

    According to the commissioners guidelines;

    “a spare or replacement barrel for a firearm will not require a separate Firearms certificate, provided it is of the same calibre”

    I read that as I can walk into a gunsmiths and buy a barrel and take it home with me so long as I have a license for a firearm of that calibre. Is that correct?

    Does the water become muddy when that barrel is for a Blaser rifle? Although the guidelines say no cert required I assume it’s not straightforward as the barrel bears a serial number which theoretically is already on the system.

    Discuss.



«1

Comments

  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,517 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    You're spot on.

    I had a few. Different contours, weights, twists, etc. For F-class shooting.

    No additional licenses needed as they were all 308, same as my license(s). A rare gift from the 2009 act.

    In relation to the serial number. You're original rifle and license for it grant you the ability to buy any additional barrels of the se caliber. If Blaser stamp their barrels with different serial numbers then it doesn't change the fact that you're allowed spare barrels.

    If you're concerned about being stopped and the Garda does their due diligence and notices the barrel is not the same serial number as the action or your license then it's somewhat moot so long as it's the same caliber.

    Another stone in the shoe is the 2019 SI (420). Part 5 is about barrels and other component parts being stamped, marked or engraved with an identifying number/mark before being sold.

    It's been a while since I read it so might be worth your while checking it out, but the simple answer is you are free to have as many spares as you wish of the same caliber as your license .

    https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2019/si/420/made/en/print

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,695 ✭✭✭lefthooker


    That’s how I would interpret it too Cass. But I’m not sure if it’s as simple with the blaser. Would a firearms dealer readily hand over a serial numbered barrel that’s recorded in his stock.

    I had a Blaser with 2 different calibres, A + B. I sold barrel B and because I had another barrel in calibre A in storage applied for a substitution, A for B.

    I was summoned by the super. He wanted to know my reasons for wanting a second barrel. I told him same reasons as the first barrel and then pointed out the guidelines regarding spare barrels and how technically I don’t need another license but Blaser serial number their barrels. He seemed surprised to hear about the spare barrel guidelines but the firearms Garda confirmed all the above to him. He said he’d have to look into this further before making his decision and said something about possible prosecution for stockpiling parts.

    I applied 2 months ago and met the super 1 month ago. Still waiting.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,517 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    With all due respect to yourself, don't let a Super that is ignorant of the law and talking through his arse make you doubt yourself.

    "Stockpiling parts". Never heard such nonsense in my life.

    The 2009 act, which means it's been around for 13 years, allows you to do this. The 2919 SI says all spare component parts ( imported into the union after 2018) must have markings to identify it. So from a licensing stand point you are covered.

    From a dealer point of view he sells it to you, records the barrel serial number, your license number and job done.

    I had, at the height of things, up to six spare barrels up to 2013. The law only covers barrels, nothing else. Each action would require a new license regardless of caliber. So the notion of you stockpiling parts which he is hinting at you doing as though you making "ghost guns" is utter shitE ( excuse the language, but that is infuriating).

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  • Registered Users Posts: 39,231 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    The fact the barrel has a serial number is irrelevant. No different than if a grip or magazine had a ID number. A serial number does mean its a registered firearm, even if record in the dealers stock. If it was a blank barrel it would also be recorded in his stock.

    I had a Blaser with 2 different calibres, A + B. I sold barrel B and because I had another barrel in calibre A in storage applied for a substitution, A for B.

    I'm not sure if I'm following you correctly. But I think you may have made life difficult for yourself.

    If your two barrels are different calibers, you need two licenses as the spare barrel allowance doesn't apply there. License A and License B. You had two barrels on license A, and 1 on B - is that the case?. You sold Barrel B. At this point I'm not sure of the status of your license B tbh, probably treated as if you sold a firearm*. Now, since you applied for a substitution for A for B, if that's granted, you'll no longer have a license in calibre B.


    *edit: might depend on when you added the 2nd license, and where the licenses refers the barrel that required it, or the action.



  • Registered Users Posts: 39,231 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    I agree about stockpiling being nonsense. But presumably you're 6 barrels were all for a calibre or calibres you held. I think the multiple calibers/licenses. And potential not only a calibre for one for a while, and then a sub adds complexity. May well depend on the order of the events.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,695 ✭✭✭lefthooker


    I had 2 different calibres, let’s call them .223 and 6.5x55, so had two separate licenses. I sold the 6.5x55 and another man has applied to license it. The spare barrel in the dealers is a .223 and also belongs to me and I’ve held a license for it within the last 3 years. The license for the 6.5 had 18 months remaining so I thought to substitute the spare .223 barrel onto the 6.5 license, that way if I ever had a visit from the Gardai I’d have a license matched the serial number on the barrel.

    When I met the super I explained to him the guidelines allowing me a spare barrel for my licensed rifle and how by applying for a license for it I was attempting to cover every possible eventuality.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,517 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    They were all 308 barrels for F-class. Different comps demanded different bullets so I had spare barrels for each comp and spare barrels for the different rounds I'd use.

    Example.

    Sometimes I'd run 185 hybrids up to 200s so would use my Bartlein 1:10. For Palma shooting I'd use my Tru Flite 1:13 with the Lapua 155.5s I also had the same barrel twist rates in 32 and 34 inch with heavy, sporting and Palma contours.

    As for the OP, the sub from barrel B to barrel A would have been redundant if he already held the license for the caliber of barrel A which he must have. The second barrel on caliber A would have been covered by his license for the "original" barrel A.

    God that's confusing to talk about.

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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,517 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Well you more than covered yourself, but as said above it was redundant. You can have the second 223 barrel on your "original" license and could have kept the 6.5 "open" and either renewed it or cancelled it come time.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 39,231 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    You have a .223 license, and two .223 barrels. That's perfectly fine. Was no need to do anything imo. Out of curiosity, does the .223 license reference the Blaser Action serial, or the .223 serial number?

    The substitution is a bit messy imo. I was confused when you said A for B, rather than B for A. There is no law that says you can't have that license, but it will be assessed on the basis of need like any other application. Could end up in a situation where its refused, as you haven't demonstrated a need for an identical barrel. Putting you in a weird spot of being allowed the spare, but also refused permission.

    Might be worth wile calling the super, and letting him know you are withdrawing you application based on the spare being permitted. Apologies for any confusion caused and away you go.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,695 ✭✭✭lefthooker


    The barrel serial number is what’s printed on the license. So by switching barrels I’d have a license and firearm with differing serial numbers.

    I rang the dealer holding the barrel for me. He cannot release my barrel without a license for it. So although I’m allowed the spare barrel I also might not be. That’s a unique situation but it’s always been the way that each Blaser barrel requires its own license.

    He also said the commissioners guidelines mean sweet F A in the real world



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,517 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Not being smart but the RFDs opinion is worth less.

    If you have a 223 license then there barrel can say "giggling pin for a laughing shaft" down the side of it and it's still be legal.

    The only reason for the barrel serial number for the 6.5 on the license is because the original license (223) should have the serial number of the action on it and to use the serial number for the actin for both licenses but two different calibers would melt their heads and PULSE.

    As for the Comish's guidelines not being worth FA in the real world, from a legislative or creating law point of view absolutely, but that is not the case here and most Gardai use it for what it is, a reference guide for both Gardai and shooters to better understand the legislation.

    Frankly this issue has taken legs because of the ignorance of the Super, the stubbornness of the RFD and you being too honest/careful.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 39,231 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    The second calibre should have the barrel on the license. As that is what triggers the second license. But first should have the action. (I’d more concerned about an “unlicensed” action in my possession.

    RFD is a likely thinking of a second calibre in a second calibre situation. A RFD with experience of spare barrels would know better. He’s clearly wrong about the guideline.

    it’s a bit if a mess now given the sequence of events.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,980 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45



    FWIW, I'd suggest anyone in the future applying for one of these multi-calibre guns, tick the "combination gun" box. As at least then they will have a heads up that this isn't just a single calibre rifle. Sure, you will need a separate license or the different calibres, but the CORE serial number should be the receiver and not the barrel serial number, as the receiver is the building block of the entire gun.

    So technically you should have the receiver number being issued again for your new and subsequent different calibre barrels,as that's apparently the only way PULSE will accept this.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,695 ✭✭✭lefthooker


    The only thing that’s certain is this is not straightforward.

    Take this example. My friend and I both have identical calibre Blasers. He is thinking of selling his barrel and I’d like to have it as a spare to my own (different twist, profile, etc.) My license permits me to have a spare barrel but he holds the certificate for his barrel. How do I rightfully take ownership of the barrel and he dispose of it?


    I’m just going to have to see how this plays out but in my case I already have an “open” license for a barrel (since I sold the 6.5 barrel but retain the license) and I previously held a license within the last 12 months for what is deemed “the spare barrel”

    Hopefully that gives me a strong hand



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,517 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    With your friend's rifle, Does the Blaser have a serial number on the action? Is that serial number the same as the barrel? Is the action serial number on his license or the barrel (if different to each other)? Is the caliber of his rifle the same as one of your licenses?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,695 ✭✭✭lefthooker


    *My friends* action doesn’t have a serial number.

    The barrel’s serial number is what’s recorded on both our licenses.

    Yes it’s the same calibre as one I already own.

    [[Can someone explain to me what is the relevance around whether the action does or doesn’t have a s/n in relation to the question of obtaining a spare barrel for a calibre that I am already licensed for when the spare barrel in question already has a s/n that is/has been recorded on Pulse.]]



  • Registered Users Posts: 39,231 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    To answer your question. If the receiver had a S/N you could list that on the license and it would over the assemble, regardless of which spare barrel was fitted.

    Any subsequent barrels in other calibres could be listed under their S/N on separate certs.

    Listing the barrels only creates the issue of assembles not matching licenses. Or being in the possession of others after a sale.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,980 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    [[Can someone explain to me what is the relevance around whether the action does or doesn’t have a s/n in relation to the question of obtaining a spare barrel for a calibre that I am already licensed for when the spare barrel in question already has a s/n that is/has been recorded on Pulse.]

    The action/receiver is the foundation of the entire gun. Without it, you have a bag of parts.

    So by rights, it's serial number and info on the receiver should be what's licensed with the originally issued calibre. Every other new calibre you add would have the receiver serial number recorded again in the new calibre.

    So your info on PULSE would be Blaser, model Very Expensive Serial number XYZ 1234 cal .308. So the next license you apply for would be Blaser, Model Very Expensive, Serial number XYZ 1234 Cal 6.5 Creedmore, and repeat for every other calibre you license.

    Now to complicate matters, and not knowing that Blaser doesn't serial number the action,[which they probably will have to do in the future under the EU directive] and are working off the German gun registration legislation.This would work like this; Your gun license has this info ;

    Make Blaser, model Very Expensive, barrel number XYZ 246, calibre .308 barrel number 369 TUV, calibre 6.5 Creedmore,etc , etc for every other calibre barrel you buy. IOW they can see it is a system multi-cal gun and that you have X number of calibres and barrels for it in your possession

    Now, do we see where the problem lies? As the receiver has no original serial number,the Irish side is going off whatever info is available to register the gun originally.IE the barrel number on the gun as originally imported or when you bought it. So now the problem is your replacement barrel that your GD won't release[?] Has a different serial number than what's on your license, because it's off your friend's rifle[?].IOW it looks like you are trying to get another actual full firearm, rather than a replacement barrel that you are entitled to on the books and PULSE.

    So what to do? As PULSE has recorded that replacement barrel in the GD as an actual full firearm, you are really stuck. Your only option is to try and explain this as clearly as possible to the super, showing him the example above and why it's incompatible with the Irish system,and try and get a waiver note from him to collect the barrel. Then get the serial number changed to match your original barrel so that they are paired ...It's messy as the only other solution is to actually have to go and license the barrel as another actual firearm to get it released from the GD.

    The joys of a legal system that cant keep up with technological advancements.

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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,517 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    As was said above I've never known any rifle to NOT have a serial number on the action as it's the core of a firearm.

    All my rifles have the action licensed, as such, with a serial number then each spare barrel is for that action, in the same caliber.

    Doing a bit of a check as Blaser are not well known to me and it seems a common fault with UK lads having the same problem and some license each barrel, some license the bolt (apparently it's stamped too).

    Seems a Blaser only issue.

    Sell the Blaser 😁😁

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,695 ✭✭✭lefthooker


    I think you grasp the complexity of the situation Grizz. Because of how the Blaser barrels are recorded and deemed a full firearm by our system the RFD can’t just give the barrel over the counter without recording a cert with matching serial number. Unlike if you were wanting to buy a spare Bergara/Krieger/Lothar barrel for your conventional BA Remy/Tikka rifle.

    As per my earlier comments I’ve already met with super to explain to him why I wanted another barrel for my rifle, and because he didn’t read my application and attached info sheet he was unaware of the C.Guidelines re spare barrels. But given the circumstances I was applying to substitute the spare .233 barrel onto the now vacant certificate since the 6.5x55 barrel had been surrendered and sold (I own the spare .223 barrel and am also the last person to hold a cert for it)

    The super said he wanted to examine the guidelines further before making his decision so we’ll see how this plays out. But I feel I’ve done what I need to to legally possess what both the guidelines and my firearms cert allow me me to possess.

    Jeez 😵‍💫



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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,980 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    One of these situations where no one is really at fault because of the system requirements and is shoving a square peg into a triangular hole in it.

    LH did everything for a ligit calibre swap. But as the system thinks he is swapping out a full-blown complete rifle with a different serial number, so it's locking down at his GD.

    The GD cant release it because LH original license serial number doesn't correspond with the swapped-over .223 barrel serial number. So he's in a world of hurt if he does release it and the books don't add up.

    The Super seems just as lost, and won't find much help in the guidelines on this, as they deal with multiple barrels of the same calibre. Not different calibres for the same gun, and if you didn't really understand this system of how this works with Blaser, you could genuinely think someone is up to something screwy and trying to BS you.

    Although if he did understand this fully, he could sort this by his power of persona designate as all it would require is a note to the GD telling him he is aware of the swap over of the calibres, and he is authorising this. Just keep a copy of that note with the gun then at all times, if it is ever quired or you are selling it.


    Cleanest way out of this? Possibly give up your original 6.5 license and serial number, and get it re-issued with the 223 barrel serial number? Nothing else has changed on the gun, there are no contradicting numbers on the receiver to cause concern, so it should be just a paperwork shuffle then?

    We'll have to call this "the Blaser curse in Ireland"😆

    One to heed if you want to buy a Blaser rifle in Ireland and want to avail of its interchangeable calibre system.😣

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,695 ✭✭✭lefthooker


    Grizz, there’s no issue with owning a Blaser and having multiple calibres. Each different calibre barrel is treated as if it was a firearm in its own right and would have its own license. Wanting multiple barrels of the same calibre can become the issue.

    Re the super, I supplied him with an A4 page of info regarding the intricacies of this substitution application, so lost is not how I would describe him.

    Post edited by lefthooker on


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,980 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    If you don't know a barrel from a buttstock and I don't know what you wrote to him...or need to, he might still be trying to make sense of it.😉 What might be simple to us,might be 3d chess to this guy.Lets see what he comes up with after looking at the not very helpful guidelines in this .

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 39,231 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Just to clarify, if some Blasers don’t have serial numbers on their actions, it makes sense that the only available number was used. But that it does to the pulse/license system. It doesn’t change the law.

    [quote]Because of how the Blaser barrels are recorded and deemed a full firearm by our system the RFD can’t just give the barrel over the counter without recording a cert with matching serial number.[/quote]

    The barrel serial is record as the firearm when licensed. But that does not make it legally a full firearm. Importantly, that only happens when licensed. If the barrel in storage is not licensed, it is not recorded anyway as a firearm. It’s a barrel on the RFD inventory. So there is no legal requirement to have a cert to release. It may also be legal to remove the number imo, if have work done.

    If the above where an issue. Then selling the 6.5 CM barrel would have been an issue too.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,980 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    The barrel serial is recorded as the firearm when licensed. But that does not make it legally a full firearm.

    True, but the law itself doesn't see it as this, as there is no concept in the acts for multi-calibre or combination guns, as they were never envisaged when the collective acts were drawn up. So it would treat the spare barrel as a fully functional firearm.

    The barrel serial is record as the firearm when licensed. But that does not make it legally a full firearm.

    As above , there is no concept in the acts of a spare barrel in a different calibre for the same gun.As this was previously licensed and has a serial number already in the system,it comes up as a Blaser 223, not as a spare barrel for a Blaser 223.


    Importantly, that only happens when licensed. If the barrel in storage is not licensed, it is not recorded anyway as a firearm. It’s a barrel on the RFD inventory. So there is no legal requirement to have a cert to release. It may also be legal to remove the number imo, if have work done.

    Not quite, It might be recorded in a footnote in the dealer's register as just a barrel, but it's still on PULSE and in the eyes of the law as a firearm with the previous owner's details. Yes,it might go dormant and "unlicensed" when in a dealer's inventory, but it never goes off the system. It's still on PULSE and in if properly run gunshop the dealer register.

    This is the crux of all this. LH is trying to get this barrel out of the dealer with his legit license for his former 6.5. The dealer can't release it because the 223 has a different serial number and this is to compound the problem a substitution for a different calibre. So in the eyes of the law, were his books checked and it shows that the 223 barrel, as a firearm in itself here, was given out to LH on his 6.5 license number. That's going to set off all sorts of alarms because who knows was it a genuine barrel or a full firearm? Whose word would you take as a Garda?If you check it on PULSE it comes up as a Blaser .223 still belonging to Joe Bloggs, Anytown, Not LH, Nowhereville with a 6.5. So what's LH doing with technically JB's 223,that he got out of a dealership on a wrong license?

    Changing the serial number, would in theory be a way out.IF you can get the previous owner and the gun dealer to certify the gun was "destroyed" and the GD kept this barrel as a useable component part that could be resold,wearing his Gunsmith hat 🙄, to someone with the same type of gun,and re etch the serial number on it to LH serial number preferably not with an electric pencil anas it would destroy the guns looks and value...Could work as it is straightening the paperwork in this more than anything.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 39,231 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    True, but the law itself doesn't see it as this, as there is no concept in the acts for multi-calibre or combination guns, as they were never envisaged when the collective acts were drawn up. So it would treat the spare barrel as a fully functional firearm.

    There is nothing in law that says a spare barrel is a firearm.

    More importantly, there is also nothing in law that says a barrel is treated differently when it has a serial number. Which is what was proposed above.

    there is no concept in the acts of a spare barrel in a different calibre for the same gun.

    Not relevant as we are not talking about a different calibre. But;Different calibre, different license.

    This is the crux of all this. LH is trying to get this barrel out of the dealer with his legit license for his former 6.5. The dealer can't release it because the 223 has a different serial number and this is to compound the problem a substitution for a different calibre. So in the eyes of the law, were his books checked and it shows that the 223 barrel, as a firearm in itself here, was given out to LH on his 6.5 license number.

    But he shouldn’t be trying to release it on his 6.5CM license. A .223 barrel/firearm can never be released as onto a 6.5/other license. It can be released on to the .223 license.

    If you check it on PULSE it comes up as a Blaser .223 still belonging to Joe Bloggs, Anytown, Not LH, Nowhereville with a 6.5. So what's LH doing with technically JB's 223,that he got out of a dealership on a wrong license?

    I think you’re getting mixed up here. There’s no JB, only LH. And LH is currently holding the correct license.


    Changing the serial number, would in theory be a way out.IF you can get the previous owner and the gun dealer to certify the gun was "destroyed" and the GD kept this barrel as a useable component part that could be resold,wearing his Gunsmith hat 🙄, to someone with the same type of gun,and re etch the serial number on it to LH serial number

    previous owner is LH.

    Engrave or punch the .223 license number on to the receiver. Remove the number from the spare barrel barrel. Job done. LH now has a license that matches his action, a barrel (same number) an a spare barrel (no number)



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,980 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    There is nothing in law that says a spare barrel is a firearm.

    Do you know that EVERY part of a firearm is considered a firearm in itself here?Be it the wood scews or the barrel? People have been charged with having an unlicensed firearm for just having a component part in our courts.Not to mind the EU directive enforces this as well as an essential component

    Not relevant as we are not talking about a different calibre. But;Di fferent calibre, different license.

    VERY relevant, because the law does not recognise such firearms in the statute books, and this is why these types of guns have licensing problems.


    But he shouldn’t be trying to release it on his 6.5CM license. A .223 barrel/firearm can never be released as onto a 6.5/other license. It can be released on to the .223 license.

    It's a substitution...So has he got the new .223 license yes/no? Unless it has the new 223 info on it, it's not going anywhere.

    I think you’re getting mixed up here. There’s no JB, only LH. And LH is currently holding the correct license.

    Nope! I said the PULSE info will record the last previous owner,as will the GD log. It's irrelevant that the gun is in storage, as a dealer isn't an owner per se.So questions could be asked of the previous owner.


    Engrave or punch the .223 license number on to the receiver. Remove the number from the spare barrel barrel. Job done. LH now has a license that matches his action, a barrel (same number) an a spare barrel (no number)

    And now you have committed three crimes under the law.😁

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,695 ✭✭✭lefthooker


    A license bearing the spare barrel’s serial number has arrived. Nothing left to do other than collect it from the RFD.

    Although a moderator was previously used with this barrel, and I ticked the box and supplied letters from my doctor and the results of a hearing test, the “S” wasn’t permitted on the new license.

    Can’t win ‘em all 🙄

    Post edited by lefthooker on


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,980 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Give it a couple of months and stick in for it,pointing out you had one previous,and why the refusal?

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,768 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    Did the Gardai tell you that you weren't permitted to have a moderator or did the licence come without the magic 'S'?

    Because I got a licence a number of years ago that didn't have the 'S' on it, went back in and questioned it, the Gardai said they'd come back to me. They phoned me 4 days later saying there was an error and that someone forgot to tick the 'S' box on the system and that a new licence will be issued to me with the 'S' on it.



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