Cold Case Review of Sophie Tuscan du Plantier murder to proceed. **Threadbans in OP**

chooseusername

The mark on the back door.

Sophie did not usually use the back door, all her outdoor boots and wellies were in the front porch, the keys were in the front door. She most likely pulled her boots on and left by the front door. If she tried to get back into the house, it's unlikely she would try the back door, so it's unlikely the mark was left by Sophie.

There was no other blood around the back door area , so an attack there is unlikely. It's possible the killer came back up to the house after the attack and tried the back door, but when that failed, why not try the front door? remember there was no evidence found of anyone being in the house.

So, if it's not Sophie or the killer that leaves (in order) Shirley, Alfie and first Gardaí on the scene. It's possible Shirley went close enough to the body to pick up blood and deposit on the back door, as that is the route she took back up home. Shirley always stuck to her account, she discovered the body and went back up to the house via the lawn and the back of Sophie's house to alert Alfie. I don't think she was in any state to check Sophie's house.

Shirley's statement says when she went back up to the house "Alfie phoned the Guardí" Now, Alfie's account is he did not go within 20yards of the body, yet when he called the Gardai he, or the operator did not call for medical assistance. Instead he was told not to go near the body and the gardaí were on the way. So Alfie must have already been close enough to the body to know she was dead and that it was murder ,he could not tell this from 20 yards,. After Alfie's call the word murder was used over the police network. So how did the Gardaí know she was already dead and that it was murder? Alfie may have gone close enough and picked up some blood and left it on the handle of the back door when he checked on Sophie.

The Gardaí were incompetent, but not incompetent enough to leave blood on the door handle.

EdHoven

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120091421#Comment_120091421

I live in rural Ireland. I understand that postmen ramble around in their vans at odd hours. I cannot accept Sunday evening though. The most logical discoverer of the body would be the postman sometime Monday. Which makes his calling on Sunday another riddle. Someone on here said the green mailbox was Alfie's or shared, so if the post was put in the box why hadn't either Alfie or Shirley retrieved it Monday morning prior to the trip to the tip?

I suppose Alfie could have walked down to check the mailbox, found the body, got the blood on his hand, tried the door on the way back. Then between himself and Shirley for some reason thought it was good policy she should claim to be the discoverer.

There is an old saying "A wise man never found a dead man".

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120087417#Comment_120087417

Bailey could easily have eliminated himself from the suspect list after presenting a voluntary dna sample... He didn't, he kept pushing himself back onto the radar..

Apologies if I'm incorrect but didn't Bailey voluntarily give a blood sample? Surely his DNA could be extracted from this?

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120092999#Comment_120092999

About the Sunday evening postman.

Like that I come from rural Ireland and in the 80s and 90s it was not unusual at Christmas time to have the postman deliver late on Sunday.

If I recall there always was a postal service the last Sunday before Christmas and as the work load was greater that time of year a late delivery on a Sunday was not strange.

But only at Christmas time, regular time of the year post was Monday to Friday and it arrived mid afternoon rather than morning.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120093169#Comment_120093169

I think it's covered in the first paragraph of the DPP report in 2014;

https://syndicatedanarchy.wordpress.com/

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120093384#Comment_120093384

So the Gardai have his DNA on file yet haven't been able to link him forensically to the crime. He's looking more innocent day by day, even if he is a crackpot.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120093437#Comment_120093437

Yep. Especially given the Garda narrative trying to link the scratches to the murder scene. Someone could have carried out the murder without leaving forensics at the scene but not if you got scratched there.

It's all there in the DPP report as to why he wasn't sent forward for trial.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120093437#Comment_120093437

He never really looked guilty. He just looked like an attention seeking eejit who was was accused by AGS and the media despite the DPP saying that there was nothing on him. The French trial was based on info that AGS provided them. Now while AGS may have evidence that is not in the public domain which puts bailey in a very different light then fine and I'll accept his likleihood of guilt but you'd think they would have also shared it with the DPP!

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120092999#Comment_120092999

Especially if you have knowledge that the local Garda was somewhere between corrupt and incompetent it's wise to adhere to the motto "A wise man never found a dead man". Thus one is never linked to the crime as being the first who found something. Since Alfie had a drug record and was known to be a user, he certainly didn't want to be connected to anything else, thus it would have been wise for his wife to be the one who called it in and claimed to have found the dead body running a seemingly innocent errand.

It is strange on the one side that Alfie and Shirley stated they didn't hear anything that night, - that if true, leads to suggest that the killer did not hunt down or chase the victim and killed unexpected from behind and without notice or any argument.

Then suppose if Alfie and Shirley were the killers, say Alfie did the killing and Shirley covered things up, then they would probably have done it differently? Dumped the body somewhere behind the brambles and briars. Then Shirley would not have to call it in on her trip to the tip, or Alfie for that matter, especially if the trip to the tip was about getting rid of and disposing of strong evidence.

It is our believe or assumption that Sophie was murdered near the gate, the location and the stone used would indicate that.

However there is no certainty on that, she could have been murdered somewhere else, like near the house and then dumped there? If she was killed by the gate than it's certainly a mystery how the blood stains were at the door, - either the killer did them and missed them in a later on clean up or she was already injured by the killer at the door? - the latter option would hardly have been a silent killing, I would suggest.

I would guess that any postman in rural Ireland would have a lot of ground to cover and his work would be also very much in tune with the community, like having a longer chat with lonesome farmers and thus taking longer to do their daily rounds....

I remember times in Ireland when mail was delivered on Saturday, but never on Sunday. That may have been something before Christmas, and extra Christmas cards to be delivered.....

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120093169#Comment_120093169

As far as I know, Bailey volunteered his DNA early on, DNA but not a blood sample. The reason for him doing this is he wanted to be eliminated as a suspect in order to be on the scene as a reporter so he could roam around, ask questions and write articles for the paper.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120093657#Comment_120093657

Bailey gave fingerprints, a blood sample, a sample of cut hair and a sample of plucked hair.

Mackinac

I’m surprised they didn’t take samples from all those suspected. Did they also take samples from JT or was it just IB?

Yurt2

Recently listened to a podcast about the 1986 murder of Swedish Prime Minister Olof Palme which remains unsolved to this day. The ineptitude of the investigation and the desperation of the Swedish police to pin it on anyone or anything with scant evidence reminded me of the Du Plantier case.

Some highlights (not comprehensive):

- Badly contaminated scene;

- Keystone cops trying desperately to close the case;

- A local man with a history of violence put in the frame with no evidence, convicted the and then acquitted after it turns out the PM's wife picked him out of a line up because he looked like an alcoholic;

- Lead detective arrested after illegally importing wiretapping equipment to spy on the Kurdish Workers Party because of a conspiracy theory that got out of hand they were responsible;

- Theories of deep state right wing conspiracy to murder him. Some on the Swedish right still maintain he was a KGB operative;

- Old Apartheid South African intelligence officials came out of the woodwork teasing they may have been involved;

- Prosecuters in the last couple of years landed on a now deceased random graphic designer who according to them happened to be carrying a gun the day of the murder (despite never having shown any extremist tendencies or ever owning a firearm, no motive either), bumped into the Prime Minister as he finished work and the PM was walking home from the cinema and shot him. Zero evidence for this guy also. But he did put himself in front of the camera in the days after the murder as he (claimed) he was one of the first 20 or so people on the scene (Baileyesque behaviour);

- Swedish police have a warehouse with filing cabinets 250 meters long full of evidence going in all different directions;

- Over 150 people have confessed to the crime. All sorts of kooks came out of the bushes to claim responsibility.

A wild chaotic saga still going on like the case in West Cork. Similar to the Bailey / Du Plantier saga in that when a high profile murder happens and people are in shock, even the institutions of the state will start to lose their minds and start engaging in irrational thinking in order to find the killer.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120094508#Comment_120094508

Yeah the Bailey case has all the hallmarks, like that one, of tunnel vision investigation.

The Swedes kept the evidence though!

T-Maxx

There's a Netflix movie about that Olof Palme murder.

EdHoven

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120093657#Comment_120093657

It just fits in so neatly with Shirley finding the body. I presume the guards asked other people in the area if they got post a 6 p.m.that Sunday. There would have been delivery on Monday, would the postman bother bringing mail on Sunday evening when he had to do the round again the next morning? If I got post 6 p.m. on a Sunday I'd be weirded out.

If the postman was there, what was he actually doing? Was he there at all and just gave false information about Sophie's light being on? Why? Who would benefit from him saying she was in the house if she actually was not?

Evergreen_7

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120093295#Comment_120093295

Yes, always post on Sunday before Christmas, and in rural Ireland it can arrive at any time of day. The postman arriving early evening is in no way strange given the date.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120095306#Comment_120095306

Yes, the podcast mentions that the Netflix movie is an example of someone taking a pet theory and running with it. The Netflix show would have you entirely convinced the graphic designer did it. Despite the fact that the theory rests upon a premise a regular office worker with no priors or history of extremism happened to bring a revolver to work one day, and upon clocking-off randomly bumped into the Prime Minister after he took an unplanned trip to the cinema, shot him dead in front of about a dozen people and nobody could identify him as the perp. A lot of people in Sweden think it's preposterous.

The case nearly drove the country half mad.

Same thing happens with the du Plantier murder, pet theories abound with very little evidence to go around - but plenty of people acting on hunches and instinct.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120095379#Comment_120095379

What I always found strange about the case is that there were only 3 people in the area when the murderer came.

It was Alfie, Shirley and Sophie who spent the night there, when the murderer came. The murderer would always have run the risk that he was seen or noticed or driving away with a car even though it was nighttime and darkness. Maybe Alfie and Shirley had a deep and long sleep that night, maybe one of them or both of them gotten up at night, went to the toilet, possibly seen something at the house next door. The murderer would have lived with that risk, if he was cleaning up the crime scene, or returned to the house to retrieve something after killing Sophie near the gates? People do see in the dark as well, people can notice cars, shape of cars and see if a car has a light or dark color, or if it was a tall person or a shorter one. Yes, it was night time, but it's not impossible not to see anything, eyes do adapt to night as well.

Or Alfie and Shirley did indeed the killing themselves and acted with total security, nobody would come to this part of the world at night and the Richardsons were not there as well. Only Alfie and Shirley would have known they were totally alone with Sophie that night. If the postman came he wouldn't do that before 7 or 8am in the morning, same as the caretaker of Sophie's house or anybody fixing something at Sophie's.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120094452#Comment_120094452

There were samples taken from quite a few others, there's a list somewhere.

The only unidentified male DNA found was one spot on Sophie's left boot.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120096888#Comment_120096888

That spot of Sophie's left boot was obviously not Bailey's otherwise we would know it by now.

The question is, whether that spot of DNA on the boot would be enough for a conviction. How do we know for certain that this spot was made during the perpetration of the murder?

The Guards also travelled to Paris last year in order question a suspect however there was no new revelation as well. It is speculated that this man was a friend of the family or possibly another casual lover of Sophie's. Then there was talk about getting the concrete block re-examined for DNA evidence, however we also haven't heard any new revelations on that one as well.

One would also have to take into consideration that the killer died as well by now, - it's been a very long time.

Other than that, I would find it very hard that at this stage there would be a conviction based on evidence beyond reasonable doubt.

It's probably more likely to consider that the only possible solution to this killing may be a deathbed confession in the best case scenario.

Don't Chute!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120095379#Comment_120095379

So are you now saying that the postman is a suspect in this?! Absolutely ludicrous. Also you saying you would be “weirded out” by getting post at 6pm on a Sunday is nonsense. It was Christmas time the busiest time of year for post. If it wasn’t for the murder this wouldn’t even come up. You and others seem to be just flailing around trying to put the murder on ANYONE but Bailey at this stage. Baileys history of extreme violence towards women makes him the number one suspect in my eyes. Talk of postmen and disputes over gates and international drug cartels being involved is just stupid.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120097288#Comment_120097288

The obsessive focus by the Guards on Bailey as well as the corruption and coercive behaviour by the Guards was the reason why the case was never solved.

There was never any evidence to link Bailey to the crime, no DNA, no hair, no fiber of his clothes, nothing, not even a motive. The ex husband or any possible drug activity or something sexual would have been way stronger motives than Bailey could ever have had. To Bailey's life, Sophie had no influence or impact at all, neither financial nor sexual.

I also don't think that the postman or any postman would have been a suspect. There was no reason for motive for him at all.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120097288#Comment_120097288

Maybe Bailey dressed up as a postman!

Ush1

Sure look at the exploits of the Murder Squad and the Kerry Babies Superfecundation theory. Munster are no strangers to state bodies trying anything to make a square fit into a circle.

Deeec

As regards the postman delivering post on a Sunday - this was the norm in the 1990s at christmas time for postman to work overtime at weekends due to the high volume of post at christmas. There is nothing odd about this. In rural areas post would be delivered late in the afternoon - it probably was one of the last houses on his route.

We had post deliverys on saturdays in December last - it still happens!

Must love hardship

Am I right to belive there was some undetermined DNA found on one of Sophies boots?

Could this sample now be submitted into a genealogical database to see if it turns up a family match similar to the golden state killer or the recent idaho college killer? Or was it too small a sample?

chicorytip

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120096177#Comment_120096177

The murderer arrived and left on foot. I think that's a fair assumption to make unless he drove part of the way up, parked and walked the rest of the way up to Sophie's. That road is so narrow it's difficult to turn a vehicle around to face in the opposite direction. The killer would have known the nocturnal habits of Shirley, Alfie and, especially, Sophie having no doubt previously visited the area late at night. He may have had voyeuristic intent - a peeping Tom. Sophie may have noticed his presence not only on this occasion but previously as well and decided to confront him.

xxxxxxl

Is it not like 99% odd the victim always know the Perp. Money, Sex, Revenge are classic motives. DNA does not point to the Local odd chap. No motive either. Did they just not like him ? Was it a British angle or just crossed the wrong person ?

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120101334#Comment_120101334

I also think the killer arrived and left on foot from Sophie's house, but also had a car which he parked somewhere by the gates.

Even though possible, I would in any investigation also at first exclude any kind of coincidence or the killer was just lucky by not leaving any DNA or random killing or something like Olof Palme in Sweden. However I wouldn't exclude the odd casual lover she may have picked up in some pub, possibly that German musician who committed suicide later on?

The killer must have known with certainty that Sophie was at her holiday cottage, - a place she visited only for a few weeks in any given year. The killer must also have known that the Richardson's place was not lived in, and the murder site was quite possibly out of direct view of Alfie and Shirley.

The killer must have had some sense of security to clean up the murder site afterwards and take his time doing so.

Whether the killing was planned or unplanned is up to debate, even what is meant by planned and unplanned.

I think the killer visited Sophie at least with the intention to threaten her verbally or to intimidate her with the aim to refrain and prevent her from doing something, if he didn't intend to kill her right from the start. And this "something" was something bigger, something worth visiting her at odd hours of the night or early morning, possibly preventing her from reporting something on drugs, possibly making a divorce less difficult, or to give in to sexual demands. We don't know.

Avoiding a costly divorce for her husband is most likely the financial motive number one. Drugs and possible Garda involvement is another one, same as sexual demands by whomever.

The amount of collusion and corruption by the Guards would point to Garda involvement in the case. The Bandon Garda station tapes, giving drugs to transients to get close to Bailey and coercing Marie Farrell to give false statements in a court of law all point towards the Garda, same as evidence being lost.

I also believe that the Garda was completely incompetent and back then also completely unable in checking whether somebody from overseas came to visit Sophie. The technology to check wasn't that refined as today. Flights don't have to come directly from France, in the "hitman theory hired by her husband", the killer doesn't even have to have been French as well. Anybody can book a flight or at least hire a car on false papers, especially back then.

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120101270#Comment_120101270

I don't think genealogical DNA is allowed for criminal prosecutions in this country.

I don't think it's allowed in many places.

I've certainly never heard of it being used, and even in the US I believe it is being used less and less due to privacy/concent concerns.