Cold Case Review of Sophie Tuscan du Plantier murder to proceed. **Threadbans in OP**

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122074891#Comment_122074891

I'm not contradicting myself, I believe the gate in the lane was probably closed Sunday evening/night.

Just wondered where you got the "surprised" from.

MonkieSocks

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122075403#Comment_122075403

it wa was stated meny times on various threads on the subject both here and other web sites.

She might have said unusal as Sophie was very insiistant that the gate be closed.

Sophie wanted the gate closed and Shirly may have gone along with this, as far as stated many times iin different times.

The Richardsons were away, so they didn't leave the gate open,

You stated that Sophie closed the gate.

What we also don't if Shirly left through the gate after Sophie closed it after she arrived home as you stated,

Tis is my last reply on the subject, as I don't want to be going to and fro on this matter.

Xander10

This thread does go around in circles.

One thing I believe, is that while Sophie was decribed as somewhat of a fiery person, by all account, I can only assume, if she left the house to confront someone, she could see them(not in the darkness of night) and she recognised them and didn't see them as a threatening stranger

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122077038#Comment_122077038

I believe she probably knew them (or one of them) but may have carried a poker too. It was a full moon and clear so you could see a fair bit that night.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122077038#Comment_122077038

"she recognised them and didn't see them as a threatening stranger"

There's probably quite a few people she'd recognise, but not that many locals I'd say.

The only locals I can think of that she'd recognise-

The Hellens.

Alfie and Shirley.

The Ungerers.

Leo Bolger and probably Sally Bolger.

The publican, Sullivan and his son.

The builder, Hegarty

The Richardsons.

The cheeseman, Hogan.

The man from Marseilles, Pecout.

That's all I can think of.

The first 6 probably knew she was there at the time.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122082902#Comment_122082902

I'd say that whoever it was didn't go there to kill her and may not have known she was there.

Xander10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122082902#Comment_122082902

Why exclude Bailey, given Alfie had introduced him to her?

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122083516#Comment_122083516

They didn't.

Day Lewin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122083493#Comment_122083493

You know, that would explain why they left the gate open on the lane; the house that overlooks it was usually unoccupied. (Sophie's house)

Which in turn sort of implies that the person knew the place, had been there before. As Ian Bailey himself pointed out, it's not a place that you would just happen upon; you'd have to know it was there.

But if Sophie came down to remonstrate with X about leaving the gate open, it seems a bit of an over-reaction to beat her to death. Why would they do such a thing?

Seth Brundle

Sophie's murder was not done over an argument about a gate or something trivial. It was done in anger and with hate by someone who had a reasson to be angry and be fillled with hate. Your "regular" murderer doesn't inflict that level of brutality.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122083758#Comment_122083758

Or a cannabis induced psychotic episode? after a weekend of over-doing the weed.

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122084013#Comment_122084013

But at the same time a very careful attention to detail not to leave behind any forensics as well as get to and from her house - hardly

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122083625#Comment_122083625

She knew something or they were spotted doing something that would get them in trouble.

saabsaab

Could be two. One of their head another cool headed perhaps doing a clean up later?

irishspiderplant

I wish we had more information about Leo Bolger.

It's been said before that her beating was reminiscent of a drug-related murder and the reason there was no attempt at hiding her body was because it was meant as a warning to others. Veronica Guerin was shot dead only a few months before Sophie was killed.

Do we have any theories as to why Bridget has disappeared, might she have received a cease and desist?

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122085232#Comment_122085232

She may have said too much. Certain forces may have acted upon her to discontinue her participation in the forum?

Day Lewin

She shared some very good quality information - and it was data, not guesswork or surmise.

After quarter of a century of no conviction, i doubt if it is harmful for the real facts to be known.

The post-mortem report was interesting reading!

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122082902#Comment_122082902

I'd say you missed that German musician who was in the area when it happened.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122085232#Comment_122085232

I always found that as one plausible theory, one of several.

Day Lewin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122087709#Comment_122087709

Agreed. The German musician seems dodgy as dammit. I always think that they should have interviewed his ex-missus - ask HER if Karl could speak French? Did he ever meet Mme. Toscan du Plantier? If he was violent? Where exactly did he live? (Quite near, I believe) And he was in Crookhaven that day, as was Sophie!

And Leo Bolger - quite a shady character with his cannabis operation - and also used to cross Sophie's land so he was very familiar with the area.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122087747#Comment_122087747

I don't know the full insights into the German musician. All I know is that he moved back to Germany soon afterwards and committed suicide, stating that he "did something terrible", but not stating what precisely that meant.

I could easily imagine that the German musician's motive would have been purely sexual. With Bailey I wouldn't be certain whether his motive would have been sexual.

Missing from that list is also Bruno from Paris. His alibi in form of some signature sounds a bit uncertain, could have been forged at the time as well, by a similarly looking man to any telecoms technician. His motive could also easily have been sexual or relationship oriented.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122087709#Comment_122087709

"I'd say you missed that German musician who was in the area when it happened."

It was about locals she would recognise.

Baz Richardson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122087785#Comment_122087785

Although reported as such in the media, I don't believe that it was established as a fact that Karl stated anything about doing something was it?

The issue for me with police claiming a sexual motive is that there is no evidence of it being one, therefore making it an equally unlikely motive for anybody.

Bruno is an ex-lover, knew the cottage well, had recent contact, and allegedly threatened or assaulted her (I read here by strangulation) on the subway. If those allegations are true, it demonstrates a history of violence against the actual victim and Bruno would not need to have a motive of sex for this attack.

But he has an alibi and not being privy to the investigation, we are not in a position to test it. French police appear satisfied with it at the time and in their later investigation.

Baz Richardson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122082902#Comment_122082902

Media reports on the cold case have a one liner stating that police were investigating Sophie's relationship with a male who had a jealous wife. Daniel stated that Sophie was quite taken with Tomi Ungerer… Some of the last people she met with during her trip to Ireland.

Mackinac

Not convinced of a sexual motive either.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122088832#Comment_122088832

I wrote could and would in the context of a sexual motive.

We neither have evidence for or against, it's just a possibility.

Regarding Bruno, I do understand that anybody could easily forge some form of signature. It could easily have been done by a man looking like Bruno, and a telecom technician who sees multiple people on any single day might not always remember the exact details. And a fake ID could have helped as well, telecom technicians don't normally scan passports or IDs on their validity.

And regarding French police and the French judiciary, I wouldn't trust them too much, given on how they convicted Bailey.

Again, it's just another hypothesis, no evidence.

An investigation should go into any direction.

We just have very little to go on.

Baz Richardson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122088973#Comment_122088973

Although due to their history he would be near the top of my list, the issue I have with the Bruno theory is that it requires pre-planning for a murder that doesn't appear to have been planned. I can accept a murder scene could be made to look unplanned, but it's then a bit of a leap to use a telephone engineer as part of some pre-planned alibi.

Bruno would have booked a telephone engineer for the day he visited Ireland, known that there would be a receipt, had somebody cover for him and sign it, and relied on the engineer turning up on the day.

I don't believe that the French investigating officers should be tarred with the same brush as the prosecutors. They could have made thorough investigations into Bruno, perhaps even more so than the Irish did, we just don't know. Not trusting the French police as an excuse to wave away Bruno's alibi would demonstrate our bias, something we accuse others of.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122089485#Comment_122089485

We don't know either if the murder was planned or unplanned. There is no real evidence for both options.

However whether planned or unplanned would be one of the major disagreements all contributors would have in this discussion.

The murderer would at least have to have known that Sophie was at her cottage a place she rarely ever visited in any given time of the year, and the murderer certainly didn't want any witnesses as well.

If Sophie's trip to Ireland was something on the spur of the moment, it could easily have been something similar for Bruno and getting somebody to cover for him for the telecom technician doesn't take an awful lot of planning.

The date of the discovery was 23 December 1996 which was a Monday? When did the telecoms technician arrive? Could Bruno in the case if nobody covered for him even theoretically have made an early morning flight from Cork to Paris and meet the technician? No idea? But I am sure, the possibility would have been investigated back then as well?

Day Lewin

While the Bruno theory does have some inviting aspects (like a woman's intimate partner being by FAR the most likely person to murder her) there really are some huge snags.

He would have had to hire a car, or borrow one. French-sounding guy, getting a car the day before a high-profile murder of a French woman; somebody would have HAD to have remembered him! Where did he eat and drink and sleep in the intervals of driving out to remote West Cork?

And if he planned the murder, why didn't he bring a weapon, and why didn't he do it in the house? She might have been surprised to see him but she would definitely have let him in. So the death might have remained undiscovered for far longer.

And if it was a lovers' quarrel, why did it happen at the gate on the lane?

It would have been much simpler to just wait until she got back to France, ask to see her, maybe go out on a date, and THEN do it.

And so on.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122091770#Comment_122091770

We all don't know, we're just examining the possibility one of many.

Getting the car would have been possibly the bigger challenge of being remembered, but again, how many men with a French accent would stand out at an airport car rental company?

Well Bruno didn't bring a weapon, as he flew, and had to go through security. That would be one explanation.

However I suppose, that if Bruno would have arrived in the dead of night or early morning at Sophie's house in Ireland, she would most likely have let him in, they would have talked, and quite possibly murdered her there? Could have used a knife in the kitchen rather than a cavity block at the gates?

Bruno would also not have known if the Richardson's were at home, or Alfie and Shirley.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122085232#Comment_122085232

Leo and Sally Bolger lived in Dunmanus East near Hellens and Pecout, about a mile from Sophie. They were in the process of moving down to Ballybrack, beyond Schull.

They needed someplace for their horses in the meantime and asked Alfie for use of his field beside Sophie’s house. The horses would have to be taken along the lane and through the gate by Sophie’s back door.

A couple of weeks before the murder Leo fenced in the field and the horses were there the weekend of the murder. One of the horses was unbroken and either Leo or Sally came each day to check and feed them.

The only route up to the horses was either along the back of Sophie’s house or up the lawn in front of her house, the route Shirley took when she discovered the body.

Sally came on Saturday, Leo came on Sunday afternoon and visited Alfie. They had mince pies. They overslept on Monday morning and later want Christmas shopping. So they didn’t visit at all on Monday.Leo didn’t know about the murder until Alfie phoned him Mon evening.

Leo came on Tues and was allowed up to visit the horses. According to the photo posted by @bjsc earlier he went up through the field in front of Richardsons house avoiding the murder scene, but still had to go along the back of Sophie’s house.

Both Leo’s and Sally’s finger marks and footprints would have been all over the area and the gates. I don’t know if the Bolgers drove in through the gate when they visited. Both of them were aggressively questioned afterwards. I can’t recall what samples, if any were taken from them.

Leo’s drug bust in Durrus and his account of the introduction of Bailey and Sophie by Alfie is well documented.
……

Bridget’s last post here was in response to a query about the local Peeping Tom. He lived a 15/20 min walk away in Dunkelly East, on a track he had used to visit Alfie. He was one of the original suspects, but the Garda that interviewed him decided he was an unlikely killer, I don’t know on what grounds. He was a local odd bod type who stole car batteries and Tractor tyres around the area, he was late 40’s at the time so obviously young enough and fit enough. He took a lift from a local person around 7:30 on the Mon morning who gave a statement but I believe the Gardai have not released it. He died in 2022 after a long illness.