Charging Etiquette Question

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119250346#Comment_119250346

Going off topic here, but I'll be quick.

With the one you have shown, no, it's CCS or chademo, but you can use the type 2 one with either going.

There is the high powered chargers (that initially had 1ccs and 1 chademo) where it could run both.

And I haven't seen the more recent ones but afaik they have ccs on both sides now and can charge both at the same time

obi604

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119250422#Comment_119250422

So the one I showed can’t have a Nissan Leaf and Hyundai ioniq charge at same time on the 50 kw - Jesus that seems really basic,

Fitz II

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119250316#Comment_119250316

Numbers are fine. 50kw for 7 minutes pulls 5.8kw. 22kw (can only pulls 20kw as there is loss) to pull the same 5.8kw will take 18-19 minutes plus the ten they spent faffing around so the 25 minutes I said is true enough (dont know where you got 32 minutes from?)

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119250380#Comment_119250380

Yep Seve OB you hopped right in and had your bias confirmed didn't ya 😁 Look I am really annoying in the motors forum cause I have EV's and love them and also have big engine petrol sports cars and love them equally, so that sort of trolling is ineffectual on me as I straddle both camps. Am I looking to justify my position?...yep suppose so, but would like others to give me reasons for and against. Several posts have helpfully done that after reading and understanding the puzzle presented.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119250454#Comment_119250454

Those older 1st gen "fast chargers" are horrid and useless, hence my desperation using it.

Fitz II

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119250260#Comment_119250260

Yes good points. Ionity North on the way up at about 70 % to top off might be a good idea. I have just done the run so many times (the brainfart of missing a turn even more stupid in that case) I was not even thinking. Northern Ireland is poorly served, when the Tesla Superchargers are open it will be better and Ionity are not great up there. For Etron, I4, Ix and Taycan Ionity is so much better than the tesla will be as tesla is contended and slower, but good in a pinch. Chargers close to cities are a bit pointless. Cities are usually destinations not stop overs, its rapid chargers midway off the motorways that are most useful

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119250376#Comment_119250376

Humorous yes, but there is actually something to this. In petrol stations there are pumps for lorries that can deliver a lot more fuel for their big tanks, try using one of those and see what happens. Same with fast chargers there are some that can deliver huge rates of charge but only for the cars that can accept it. Usually these chargers are very expensive to use and that thankfully disincentives people from using them unless they can get the real benefit. A leaf will charge as fast on a 50kw as it will on a 350kw charger. Its not a level playing field. In a road race generally the fast runners are put up front to keep the casuals out of their way. It no different from the queue for the ladies and the gents. Gents can get in and out real quick and dont have the wait. The ladies cause they take longer have the queue up more....Christ analogygasm.

kuang1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119250380#Comment_119250380

Nope doesn't look like that at all. If it did you could feel better about your comments though.

OP genuinely looking to see if he/she was out of line to ask the question in the first place, and taking all comments on board since. Fair play.

Ham Grenade

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119250002#Comment_119250002

Confuses you like charging an EV confuses you?

Iguarantee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119250376#Comment_119250376

I've a 2015 Leaf, your system would finally allow me to gazump poxy 2013 leaf owners! :D

Shiny

This is the reason I will only buy an EV with long range, if the chargers are occupied I can comfortably move onto the next option up the road.

For those looking for 10*350Kw chargers, just be mindful of the size of the electricity connection that the petrol station has to the grid, it might not be able to handle that.

MightyMunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119250346#Comment_119250346

Depends on the charger, the old triple headers can only charge one car on DC at a time. The newer ones can normally charge 2. Some even have 2 x CCS e.g. at Junction 14 on M7.

MightyMunster

Charging for an hour on a DC charger seems excessive. Surely would be quicker to do 2 shorter stops if you even needed that much charge

Calahonda52

OP: this is the essence of the post

Now I assume they were.......

.... noobs and they seemed very stressed.

I dont know if....

but I would assume ....

so likely they waited longer....

Seems like common decency .............

So I felt ......

but that doesn't really fuss me.

ALL the above is made up in your head, human nature, we all do it.

But question is 

1. Was I correct to ask? YES
2. Were they right to refuse? RIGHT and WRONG are theoretical social constructs, depends on the social mores of the society we live in
3. Whats the correct Etiquette for this? NONE

Other than the insightful posts from KC and a few others, the rest of this thread is 100% ....ox, lost count of how many prams got emptied of toys.

Enjoy life, spoil the kids and f* the trolls on here ( and dont forget to charge now and again, I find it helps as I approach 100,000 e cars kms)

😀

Fitz II

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119251074#Comment_119251074

Suppose you have to define what long range is? Gridserve in the UK have it right on charging infrastructure. The electricity requirement is not a hell of a lot really compared to a medium sized factory so perfectly doable. Solar...capacitors all that jazz.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119251247#Comment_119251247

Indeed. No risk of the kids going unspoiled. But its an interesting question with various chargers, various cars and various levels of knowledge. In sailing there is the notion of "might is right" you give way to bigger ships. Is seems to me there may be benefit for all in allowing the superior charging machine take priority in certain situations, however this thread has been enlightening with regard to general attitudes, always good to poke the head outside the echo chamber once in a while.

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119249360#Comment_119249360

In a country where people ride up on to the pavement outside schools or where is common to park at a petrol pump, fail to fill but go in for a sandwich, the answer is that there is no etiquette and no consequences. If I had waited 10 minutes for them to download their app, I would have made them plainly aware of their selfishness. There is too little etiquette or consideration for others in Ireland mostly as a result of the absence of consequences or people willing to call out poor behaviour.

ddarcy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119253316#Comment_119253316

I don’t disagree. The root cause here is that the department of transport and esb think 2 chargers is a hub. Their plan should have seen multiple people walked to the door and fired it is that bad , but this is ireland so they’ll be given raises and promotions instead. And I’ll tell you public comments are a complete waste of time too unfortunately.

i was in the US a week back. Where I went has a population of around 75k. There were 3 fast charging hubs. A Tesla hub with 10 chargers, electrify America 10 chargers and another group, forgot the name. All chargers 350 kw/hr. If all were in use in this scenario I’d let him in because I know I’m not going to be waiting long for another.

again you can tell me you need 5 minutes but once you plug in I’m at your mercy. Again if more chargers there and this is less problematic

Fitz II

I visited a gridserve on a UK road trip a few weeks ago did over 2500km no issues at all (although the midlands towards wales is a big of a dead zone and had to use one 50kwh charger to get to Hollyhead ). Car could drive for about 3.5 hours on the motorway without charging and I will tell you that was the limit of my bladder and back.

The griderve station in Braintree was amazing. a dozen 350kwh chargers, a dozen 90 kw chargers and a few chademo 50 kw chargers. The owners without fail choose the correct charger for their car with nobody on a 350 what can only pull 50. The services had a lounge, showers, shops, nice food (not the usual garbage) and lots of covered space to stretch your legs. Entire roof was solar and they seem to have battery storage there too. This is the way of the future. Opportunities exist to sell stuff to a captive audience most petrol stations would kill for. It also located on the way to places not at the places if you know what I mean.

the_amazing_raisin

I love it when UK YouTubers complain about their charging network, they should come over here and see what we have to deal with

Newoven

I had a version of Fitz's experience recently at the eCars 50kw charger in Lucan shopping centre. The eCars app told me there was a car charging but the session had been going for more than 45 minutes so I reckoned by the time I got there that car should be gone. On arrival an Ioniq 5 was still charging on the 50kw (and presumably paying the overstay fee) and a PHEV was connected to the AC outlet. An older Leaf was waiting to use the Chademo when the Ioniq left. When the Ioniq 5 left I spoke to the Leaf owner and asked him if he'd mind me jumping the queue for a brief top-up. He couldn't have been nicer, immediately said he had no problem with that. He reckoned he needed an hour or more so a 10 minute delay wasn't a big deal.

At the time I felt bad jumping in, I felt a bit guilty as I have a new Model 3 and he was driving an older Leaf, and I felt a bit self-conscious because I'd been playing golf and was dressed like a golfer so I felt that I could easily come across as an entitled nob. So I probably overdid the if-you-don't-mind, and I-hate-to-ask, and the please-don't-feel-you-have-to. No need though, the gentleman couldn't have been nicer. We chatted about our cars and the charging network and the weather for 10 minutes and then I got out of his way.

Part of the reason I thought to ask him was because I have this sense of camaraderie in owning an EV. There's a certain (maybe imagined) pioneering feeling about it. Reminds me a bit of when I rode motorbikes, always a friendly wave and a bit of chat from other bikers. As it turned out I think the Leaf owner had a similar outlook and told me some stories about helping and getting help from other EV drivers over the years. I now feel I owe a similar gesture to the greater EV community so at some stage I will try to be similarly helpful if asked.

So my answers to Fitz's original questions;

1.Was I correct to ask?

Definitely, no harm in asking.

]2.Were they right to refuse?

Neither right nor wrong, it's hard to know what pressure was on them. However when they realised they needed to open an eCars account they might have offered to let you nip in. It would be a lot easier if the chargers allowed more cars to park in reach of the cables so this sort of thing didn't involve moving the cars about.

3.Whats the correct Etiquette for this?

The only etiquette that applies is the first come first served unwritten rule of queues. Any variation of this is a matter for the people in front of you in the queue on the day, as you found out....

slave1

Going back to OP, it was the missed turn that was the root cause. SPOF is not something to plan your journey around in Ireland (or anywhere else). Into my 6th year with EV driving and I never have an issue as I never route based on SPOF, Tesla/Ionity hubs FTW

Fitz II

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119256683#Comment_119256683

Except I didnt have a problem or failure just had to wait a bit longer., there are 50kwh ESB chargers all over the place so I was in no danger at any point of stranding myself, hell I have a 22kw onboard AC charger on the car so better prepared than most (also keep a 22kw Juice booster with every possible electrical outlet converter in the car so can take 22kwh off an industrial supply in any hotel)...so why I was at this particular charger really is not the question although people seem to want to teach me how to suck eggs here ( 3 years now driving EV's, currently own 2, many road trips in this country and others, and over 50k Km done in an EV, and 8k km done in the last 6 months). This could happen to anyone at any charger at any time. All going smoothly I could have landed at ionity and I only needed 10 minutes there so same issue could have arisen. This logic would have me bring one of my ICE cars if followed to its logical conclusion.

I know there is a thing when any question is asked on boards to look deep into the black heart of the OP and let them know in a virtue signalling way that it is their attitude and flaws are the root cause of all issues, but its a simple matter of do you let somebody needing a splash and dash top off in ahead of you if you are sitting down to a long charge. If not why not? and is it reasonable to ask to skip the queue?

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119248916#Comment_119248916

Me heart bleeds for them!

slave1

I could be wrong on this as I never ended up using them (even though I had a 22kW on-board charger too) but could you have used the 22kW cable whilst either the CHAdeMO or CCS was in use (assuming parking position was available)?

Fitz II

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119257680#Comment_119257680

I did, but its contended with the CCS. Leading to both of us spending more time than needed at the charger than if I went first un-contended and they then went un-contended, likelihood being that nobody else is going to come and pull 22kw off them on the AC after me. Parking position on the AC is not a problem as the connection is unteathered.

slave1

I'd hook up to the AC then and the CCS would have to "suffer".

The only time I would ask someone to disconnect is when I was charging on a Tesla V2 (shared) SuC when there is a free unshared stall available. Think I may have done this maybe a half dozen times and always well received as folk just did not realise

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119257954#Comment_119257954

This how we will end up with people parking across both spaces at the QC45 chargers, I'm not paying on overstay fee to get home because you felt the need to knowingly halve my charge rate.

slave1

As I said in my post, I've never used the AC ever but when in the OP scenario and only needing a few minutes it's perfectly acceptable.

Your concern is therefore with the provider, not a user that uses the equipment as intended and this is the case with all load sharing chargers.

Take my post from two weekends ago at Macreddin, two EVs plugging into Tesla only destination chargers and not charging (clearly labelled Tesla only so they knew what they were doing) whilst loads of free spaces adjacent, just shrugged it and moved on.

What I liked about the V2 Tesla chargers was the tapered cost of charging, when they ended up being shared Tesla would drop the cost of charging due to lower speeds, obviously would not help speed of charging but a nice financial gesture. They've since stopped this practice.

liamog

Your concern is therefore with the provider, not a user that uses the equipment as intended and this is the case with all load sharing chargers.

Yeah it's the provider, and I keep giving them feedback at every opportunity to remove the AC sockets from the 50kW units and place somewhere nearby instead in. I will usually give users the benefit of the doubt that they don't know connecting to the AC will halve the charge of a connected CCS car.

When your response to being told about the problem is to say "I'd hook up to the AC then and the CCS would have to "suffer"." then that's on you, you are the person choosing to impact someone else. If we're going to have that attitude then I may as well park horizontally to make it awkward for you to make my life awkward.

Doing it on the AC side of a DC charger irks me way more than the split DC chargers as the impact vs benefit is so low. I've had it happen before where someone will hook up the AC whilst waiting for me to finish on the DC, congrats they've just turned their 30 minute wait into an hour one to take on board enough power to save them 4 minutes of time when it's their turn on the CCS.

Fitz II

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119260883#Comment_119260883

Thats a fair point, And I suppose the corollary is my view...I can get what need on the AC in 2o minutes halving your CCS so better to let me go ahead. I am not going to wait the hour doing nothing really as I can plug in an be gone in 20 anyway and they said they would be an hour. Defo the AC should be on a different connection but they are there for Zoe's really. The ESB designed these (or purchases these) from a snapshot in time and failed to plan for the future. I did however really feel the other people though I was "mansplaining" to them with my flash car and like a number on here jumped to the conclusion I was just being an entitled prick bulling them because I didnt want to wait (which I didn't, but the devil was in the detail). At the end of the day I cost them more time than they cost me and my sense of fairness is twitching hence the questions here to see what I should do should this happen again.

liamog

Even though the impact to me is the same, I'm not irritated at all by a Zoe hooking up to AC, that's the intended use cases and they are at least getting the benefit of the capability. The bigger flaw it exposes is the overstay charge. I shouldn't have to pay more for the same service because of someone else's action, that's a sign of bad system design

slave1

AC is irrelevant, the same issue arises today with the triple header ESB chargers (some of which are throttled) and V2 Tesla chargers where the subsequent connection takes from the existing hooked up EV.

It's the way it is, and if hooked up to a throttled charger the same cost is being suffered despite the lower charging speed/elongated charge time.

slave1

.and the way around this is use of proper hubs, Ionity/Tesla V3 but for that you gotta pay the piper