Getting an architect

C. Eastwood

When a Client retains a Chartered Building Surveyor to alter and renovate their home and construct an extension etc, the Surveyor will complete a full set of detailed Construction Drawings, and Planning Drawings etc where necessary.

They will also produce a very detailed Specification of Works, which will include everything necessary to complete the Works in accordance with the Clients instructions and in accordance with the Clients Budget.

These Construction Drawings and Specification of Works, inter alia, will form the Contact / Agreement between the Building Contractor and the Clients.

Most importantly the Detailed Construction Drawings and Detailed Specification of Works will ensure that the Tender / Estimate provide by the Building Contractor, before the Works commence, will be very similar to the Final Account provided by the Builder on Completion of all the Works.

DOCARCH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119251903#Comment_119251903

Standard architectural services would be from inception, design, tender and through to completion. An architect not being involved in the construction stages is providing a partial service rather than an additional service (....however this is usually at clients request).

C. Eastwood

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058250835/getting-an-architect

This is a copy of the cover Code of Practice for Inspecting and Certifying Buildings and Works 2016.

This Code is free to download.

It is in accordance with the Building Control Regulations 1997 to 2015. -

213D1F60-4B68-4303-8DB7-764D4326E13C.jpeg

Below is an extract from page 12 of the Code, as follows:-

4.2 Who can sign as the Design Certifier and/or as the Assigned Certifier

4.2.1 Assigned Certifier and Design Certifier

The following may be appointed and sign as the Assigned Certifier, provided they are competent in relation to the particular works involved:

(a) Architects that are on the register maintained by the RIAI under Part 3 of the Building Control Act 2007; or

(b) Building Surveyors that are on the register maintained by the SCSI under Part 5 of the Building Control Act 2007; or

(c) Chartered Engineers on the register maintained by Engineers Ireland under section 7 of the Institution of Civil Engineers of Ireland (Charter Amendment) Act 1969.

Similarly, the Design Certifier must be one of the above registered professionals and must be competent to carry out their design and to co-ordinate the design activities of others for the works concerned.

sydthebeat

The OP is not asking questions as to can act as a "design certifier" and "assigned certifier"

You have a misunderstanding of the OPs question and of the services required of the two roles above.

Design Certifier and Assigned Certifier roles are required AFTER the initial Architectural Design is carried out, and there is no statutory restriction in Ireland as to who can provide architectural design for planning applications.

As to who the "best" provider of this service is, its still the architect.

C. Eastwood

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119262603#Comment_119262603

In your opinion only.

I do not have any misunderstanding whatsoever.

There are many people reading this and my aim is to educate them against misleading statements made here.

Especially the people who watched the Budget Overruns on simple home Renovations on the Telly - some of which were in access of €100,000.

I have never known a Client who could come up with extra funds for huge budget overruns

As I have already confirmed above - Chartered Building Surveyors will obtain a Tender from a Builder before the works commence, which will be similar in valve to the Builders Final Account

This never happens with Assigned Certifiers who are Chartered Building Surveyors and educated in Quantity Surveying.

Quantity Surveying is simple for Chartered Surveyors.

People reading this will understand that a Design Certifier / Chartered Building Surveyor does not also require a PhD in Nuclear Physics to design the Refurbishment and Alterations and Extension to a Clients home in agreement with the homeowners, to suit their Budget.

DOCARCH

@C. Eastwood In my opinion you are confusing people and being disingenuous with your posts (to your own bias) and I don't think the OP was asking about the ins/outs of Design/Assigned Certifiers!

Just because somebody can legally act as a Design Certifier, it does not make them qualified to actually design. Simple. Being a Design Certifier is a technical role (involving verification). Leave the actual designing to the people who have the training to do that.

As an architect, in college I studied structural engineering and mech/elec engineering for a number of years (of a 5 year course). I don't go around suggesting I can design structure and/or mech/elec installations!

DOCARCH

'Especially the people who watched the Budget Overruns on simple home Renovations on the Telly - some of which were in access of €100,000.'

That's also disingenuous especially in the programme you are likely to be referring to there are quantity surveyors involved. Also bear in mind it is TV (and in the light entertainment slot)!

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119262958#Comment_119262958

In your opinion only.

I do not have any misunderstanding whatsoever.

You are presenting an argument that only a professional mentioned in the Building Control Amendment Regulations (Architect, Engineer, Surveyor) are the only professions that can provide Design Services.

This is patently incorrect. There is no restriction as to who can provide architectural design in Ireland. A homeowner can design their own house should they wish.

You are also presenting the argument that a building surveyor is as proficient in architectural design as an Architect. From an educational point of view that is also patently incorrect.

I am going to suggest that you're doing this in order to push the profession of "Building surveyor" of which i assume you are one. So be it, your prerogative. I'm not an architect yet ill still voucher for their design education over a building surveyor.

However you're understanding of BCARs and the roles of Assigned and Design Certifier are incorrect based on what you've posted here already. The fact that a design can already be formed and granted permission before the requirement for a "design certifier" is QED with this.

C. Eastwood

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119263072#Comment_119263072

I’m sure the Clients who had to pay extras of over €100,000 were well entertained

C. Eastwood

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119263287#Comment_119263287

See the below extract from page 12 of the Code of Conduct which is issued by the Government in accordance with the Building Control Regulations 1997 to 2015. ( free to download).

4.2 Who can sign as the Design Certifier and/or as the Assigned Certifier

4.2.1 Assigned Certifier and Design Certifier

The following may be appointed and sign as the Assigned Certifier, provided they are competent in relation to the particular works involved:

(a) Architects that are on the register maintained by the RIAI under Part 3 of the Building Control Act 2007; or

(b) Building Surveyors that are on the register maintained by the SCSI under Part 5 of the Building Control Act 2007; or

(c) Chartered Engineers on the register maintained by Engineers Ireland under section 7 of the Institution of Civil Engineers of Ireland (Charter Amendment) Act 1969.

Similarly, the Design Certifier must be one of the above registered professionals and must be competent to carry out their design and to co-ordinate the design activities of others for the works concerned.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Note the wording by the Government in the above:-

Design Certifier must be one of the above registered professionals and must be competent to carry out their design and to co-ordinate the design activities of others for the works concerned.

This means in plain English that a Building Surveyor who is registered as a Design Certifier….. “to carry out Design”

It is axiomatic that a person Certifying the Design of a Building must be Qualified, Educated and Experienced etc in same.

Fit instance it’s only a Chartered Structural Engineer who could Certify the Design by another Structural Engineer.

sydthebeat

Thats about the 3rd time youve posted the same thing.

You dont seem to understand the basic fact that BCARS is required AFTER the design has been realised. Someone (be they the original designer or someone else) must then take the design and ensure it complies with the building regulations. THIS is the time that "Design certifier" becomes a requirement.

you appear, again, to misunderstand the difference between "architectural design" and "designing the construction of a building"

i suggest you brush up on these differences or you may end up giving clients incorrect advice.

sydthebeat

all this "assigned and design certifier " is a complete red herring anyway as the OP is only looking to extend and / or renovate and there is no requirement for them to appoint an assigned or design certifier anyway.

The "wall of text" posts you are making are completely unnecessary

MacDanger

Folks, I think ye're well past the point of giving the op useful advice tbh

muffler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119262553#Comment_119262553

How many times do we have to put up with you promoting the building surveyor at every given opportunity?

C. Eastwood

It is being promulgated here that only an Architect can design alterations and an extension to an existing home.

Building Surveyors and Chartered Civil Engineers are also qualified and very capable and competent of this also.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119263726#Comment_119263726

It is being promulgated here that only an Architect can design alterations and an extension to an existing home.

absolutely NO ONE said that here, and if thats the argument youre trying to have, youre arguing with yourself.

C. Eastwood

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119263773#Comment_119263773

sydthebeat

20-06-2022 11:32pm

And once more, do not engage a "building surveyor" to design your extension / renovation.

Design is not what they are trained in

sydthebeat

That quote does not say what you've claimed.

Perhaps you need to revise what you're claiming?

C. Eastwood

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119264487#Comment_119264487

sydthebeat

20-06-2022 11:32pm

And once more, do not engage a "building surveyor" to design your extension / renovation.

Design is not what they are trained in

sydthebeat

what the actual ???

Repeating yourself isn't going to change the words???

Look, you seen to have an issue comprehending what was posted so ill make it very easy for you. ive said TWICE already that:

There is no restriction as to who can provide architectural design in Ireland

so your argument that:

It is being promulgated here that only an Architect can design alterations and an extension to an existing home

is one that NO ONE is making

if you cannot see the absolute polar opposites of these two statements then im afraid youre beyond help.

Druidyourlookingfor

I have a question 🙋🏻‍♂️. When architects go MIA, radio silence, or evaporate!!!? Is it because the project doesn't suit and they want rid of the client so they stop all communication?

I have paid my architects to get planning permission with drawings and permission was granted but now I have not heard sight nor sound from them?

This was during lockdowns but I would of thought a courtesy of what the actual **** happens next?!? Stumbling block was finding people to cost the build but the search has now turned into them vanishing off the radar.

So I know there are architects and professionals in here and I get that you can't tar them with the same brush but I want to know is this the REAL culture bearing in mind this is my second architect in a row that has had the same attitude.

What should I do next, I don't own the copyright of drawings do I?

mickdw

Well firstly you got the service you paid for so you have not been burned but it is pretty crap of them not to follow up and at least advise that they are not in a position to undertake build stage works.

Just get someone else and carry on.

C. Eastwood

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119365851#Comment_119365851

You have Planning Permission. You need to move on and construct your building.

Your present Construction Professional (CO) apparently is not will to work with you, could be the fact that they are too busy.

You need to pay your present CP in full and part amicable.

Any CP who hold Membership of any of the Professional Bodies are precluded in accordance with their Code of Conduct from working for a Client until they are satisfied that the previous CP has been properly discharged.

Your Previous CP holds all your Planning and Design Drawings in AutoCAD, and hopefully your present CP will email the AutoCAD Drawings to your new CP.

If not the new CP will have to redraw all of the Planning drawings etc in AutoCAD.

The AutoCAD drawings are required for a Commencement Certificate.

Make decisions immediately and move on and get building.

Druidyourlookingfor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119371797#Comment_119371797

Can the current CP refuse to release the drawings to us so we can move on for any reason? As I have said they have been paid up to date at this point.

C. Eastwood

The only way to find that out is to get the new CP to phone your previous CP, requesting a copy of your AutoCAD Drawings, followed up by an email.

Do this immediately.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119371999#Comment_119371999

usually the provision of pdfs is what happens when another CP comes in during a project.

some CPs might be happy to pass on the CADs, a lot wouldnt be though, especially if its a particular singular design.

copyright extends to the client for the use of the design on their build only (ie under license). The actual copyright of the design lies with the creator.

giving the CADs leaves a lot more possibility of the design being reused (or augmented in a manner), therefore most designers only provide the pdfs of the design for use by the client.

Druidyourlookingfor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119370396#Comment_119370396

"pretty crap" is putting it mildly

mickdw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119372282#Comment_119372282

Well you maybe don't grasp that these are very much separate stages so it's not really unusual to change providers.

You have not been conned or anything like that.

Of course there is a small chance that the original guy has made a complete mess and is gone awol for that reason.

Druidyourlookingfor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119373375#Comment_119373375

I never said I felt conned or anything and I know about the stages as is our contract, it's how they communicate or rather not communicate is where I have the issue. I don't even have anyone lined up because I still don't know what has actually happened with the Architect. It's been all emails sent and nothing coming back. What drives me nuts is that they have turned us into nagging clients when its coming up to a year since the last email from them. So we have been patient but now it's time for phonecalls to escalate things. Is it the culture of this sector?

sydthebeat

no its not the "culture" in the industry.

However by the same measure as is felt in a lot of other industries lately (service industry, airlines, public services, transport, imports etc) there is a lack of workers so perhaps this office is so busy that it cannot take on new work?

you havent phoned them in a year? why not?