Getting an architect

babyducklings1

Looking at doing an extension and possibly changing the layout of the house so dont want to make mistakes and would like to get it right. So is an architect the way to go or would a good builder be

babyducklings1

The end of that post got cut off sorry but what I’m asking is a good builder enough or is it better to hire an architect and look at different possibilities or maybe a builder can do that as well. As I say just want to get it right

muffler

Would you consider employing an architect to carry out the building works?

babyducklings1

No I wouldn’t. But this isn’t an architect versus builder thing. I am asking a genuine question and your point seems a bit off the point tbh and not all that helpful.

muffler

So you wouldnt consider an architect worthy of carrying out the building works yet you think the builder could carry out the design work. You may have answered your own question.

mickdw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058250835/getting-an-architect

If you know what you want and are not open to other ideas, you may be ok just getting a builder. Even then you need an Engineer to certify works etc and never go with the builders suggested Engineer. You want your Engineer to be looking out for you, not let the builder cut corners.

Most people think they know what they want and how it should look but are usually stunned with what an architect can come up with so get a design professional and let the builder do the building.

Strumms

A property that my parents had built….a friend of theirs recommended a builder who met with my parents and the builder recommended and brought in the architect.. so might be good to start that way.

babyducklings1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119221847#Comment_119221847

Thanks for your reply Mick. Yes that’s what I’m thinking that the architect can have so many ideas and better design plans than we’d ever think of. Just want to get it right and not regret the building. Have seen friends and family regret the extensions they’ve done and probably it’s down to bad design and something they didn’t think of but a good architect would have. Hadn’t thought that much about the engineer but thanks for pointing this out. This whole building thing is not straightforward by any means.

babyducklings1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119221871#Comment_119221871

Thanks Strumms, who knows it might work out like that for us, we’ve a house renovation to do and where to begin and how to begin is difficult and daunting but we have to start somewhere 👍

babyducklings1

So if I’m going for an architect how do I go about it? Like will they give me few different design options? I’m new to all this so just don’t know.

C. Eastwood

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119221937#Comment_119221937

babyduckling1

You have received good advice above -do not allow a Builder to carry out any design of your extension and alterations.

Furthermore, a builder will not have Professional Indemnity Insurance, and cannot provide a Certificate of Compliance with the Building Regulations, and Planning Permission, which will be required when selling your property.

In accordance with the Building Control Acts, there are 3 Construction Professionals registered by the State for carrying out Design and Certification of buildings, which are as follows:- Building Surveyors, Chartered Civil Engineers, and Architects.

Retain either one of these professionals for your project.

babyducklings1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119222349#Comment_119222349

Thank you for this, much appreciated.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119223241#Comment_119223241

do not retain a "building surveyor" to design your extension / renovation. its not what they are trained to do.

even engineers will have only fundamental appreciation for design.

the only professional of the 3 named that are actually educated in design is the architect. the other 2 professions generally come into the equation after the design is formed, to provide ancillary services such as structural design or quantity calculations / budget analysis.

C. Eastwood

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119223241#Comment_119223241

Please note that Chartered Building Surveyors are not Chartered Quantity Surveyors. These are very different professions. Both are Protected Titles in accordance with the Building Control Act 2007.

Chartered Building Surveyors do not carry out “Quantity calculations / budget analysis” in accordance with the advice provided to you. These functions are carried out by Chartered Quantity Surveyors.

Protection of the title 'Building Surveyor' was introduced in the Building Control Act 2007. The use of the title is restricted to suitably qualified persons who have been included on a statutory register. If you work in Ireland as a Building Surveyor it is legally required that you be registered.

sprucemoose

being an architect i obviously am going to recommend you employ one on all but the smallest of jobs. but yes, this is what we are trained to do, take a chance to save money if you want but it could end up costing more in the long run if youre not happy with it

C. Eastwood

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119223241#Comment_119223241

In accordance with the Building Control Act 2007 the State appointed 3 Professional Bodies in Ireland to provide a Statutory Register of Design Certifiers, and a Statutory Register of Assigned Certifiers.

The Design Certifiers are certified by the State to Design Buildings, and also certify the Design of Buildings.

The Assigned Certifiers are Certified by the State to certify the construction of Buildings from commencement to completion and to also provide Certification of the complete works to be in compliance with the Building Regulations for the Building Control Manager System ( BCMS).

All Design Certifiers and Assigned Certifiers are provided with a unique registration number which enables them to access the BCMS in relation to the Certification of Buildings.

The 3 Professional Bodies licences by the State to provide these Registers are as Follows:-

1. The Society of Chartered Surveyors Ireland. (SCSI)
2. Engineers Ireland
3. The Royal Institute of Architets of Ireland. (RIAI)

To be Registered on the State Register as a Design Certifier, the Applicants had to provide 10 years of acceptable Design of Buildings.

To be Registered on the State Register as an Assigned Certifier the applicants had to provide 10 years of Certification of Buildings.

Many Building Surveyors are both State Registered Design Certifiers and State Registered Assigned Certifiers, and are very qualified to design and certify Buildings.

All Surveyors must comply with the Code of Conduct of the SCSI, and must provide sufficient Professional Indemnity Insurance.

You can find a State Registered Design Certifiers and State Registered Assigned Certifiers on the following link.

(Only choose ‘Building Surveyor’ and choose your location and it will give you a list in your location.)

https://scsi.ie/the-register/check-the-register/

sydthebeat

And once more, do not engage a "building surveyor" to design your extension / renovation.

Design is not what they are trained in

MacDanger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119221937#Comment_119221937

Getting an architect is a good idea but actually managing to get one to do a fairly small job like this in any sort of reasonable timeframe might be difficult in the current environment.

C. Eastwood

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058250835/getting-an-architect

Below is the syllabi of the 4 year full time Honours Bachelor of Science Degree in Building Surveying by Dundalk Institute of Technology.

Graduates with this BSc (Hons) Degree in Building Surveying, will need to obtain 10 years of approved Building Design experience to be registered as Statutory Design Certifiers, in accordance with the Building Control Act 2007.

As can be clearly seen the Building Surveyors are educated and trained in the Design of Buildings.

Incorrect advice was given above to the OP that Building Surveyors do “Quantity calculations / budget control”.

It can be clearly seen from the below syllabi that Building Surveyors are not trained as Quantity Surveyors.

Year 1

Semester 1

• Construction Technology 1 (Year Long)
• Materials Technology
• Measured Surveys 1
• Design & Creativity in the Built Environment
• AutoCAD
• Report Writing & Communications

Semester 2

• Construction Technology 1 (Year Long)
• Building Services 1
• Building Quantification
• Measured Surveys 2
• BIM 1 

Year 2

Semester 1

• Building Control (Year Long)
• Building Design & Performance (Year Long)
• Structures
• Building Services 2
• Building Pathology 1
• Schedules of Work 

Semester 2

• Building Control (Year Long)
• Building Design & Performance (Year Long)
• Integrated Group Project
• Materials Performance
• Advanced Construction Technology
• Building Surveys 1

Year 3

Semester 1

• Legal Framework for Building Surveying
• Planning & Development Control
• Procedures & Documentation
• Building Refurbishment
• Building Surveys 2
• Health, Safety and Environmental

Semester 2

• Work Placement

YEAR 4

Semester 1

• Dissertation (LT)
• Building Pathology 2
• Architectural Conservation
• Project Management
• Building Adaptation Project

Semester 2

• Dissertation (LT)
• Building Surveying Studies
• Professional Practice & Entrepreneurship
• BIM Management
• Maintenance Management

Penn

Design is certainly not what surveyors specialise in, however there is lots of training in design and architecture as C.Eastwood points out (and the lecturers I had for those classes were architects). Likewise, architects can certainly review and assess building defects, undertake surveys (to a degree), however it's not what they specialise in.

Training, experience and expertise of different parts of the construction industry are undertaken to various degrees by the different professions. The degree to which you want or need your professional to have that level of training, experience and expertise determines which professional you should go with.

I'm a surveyor who has designed new builds, extensions and renovations. But I've always made it clear to clients that I am not an architect, and if they want that next level of expert and specialised design, they should engage an architect. But I'm not someone with no training or experience in design either who is just trying his hand at it or claiming to be something he's not.

So you could go with a surveyor to design your works if you wanted, just make sure they're experienced in design, ask to see previous projects, discuss what you're looking for etc.

muffler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119230195#Comment_119230195

What's your point!

C. Eastwood

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119229165#Comment_119229165

This is the Point, which was very obvious from my replies.

Statutory Registered Design Certifiers in accordance with the Building Control Act 2007 are qualified and are entitled to design Buildings, and are entitled to register their Drawings /Designs in the BCMS, regardless whether they are (a) Building Surveyors / Chartered Building Surveyors (b) Chartered Civil Engineers or (c) Architects.

I needed to point out this Correct Information to the OP, because other information was given to the OP.

I will not be replying any further to this thread.

sydthebeat

"design certifiers" does not at all refer to architectural design!

"design certifiers" refers to those who design the construction of a building in as far as the Building Control amendment regulations is referring to ie compliance with building regulations. A design certifer must have the knowledge to be able to certify that the design of the construction works complies with building regulations.

The Design Certifier is responsible for co-ordinating, compiling and scheduling the plans, calculations, specifications and particulars of the project. He/she must certify that all designs comply with the relevant requirements of the Building Regulations.

https://www.ors.ie/news/the-role-of-a-design-certifier/

“Design Certifier” means the competent, registered professional person:  who has been commissioned by the Building Owner to design, in conjunction with others, the building or works described in the relevant Commencement Notice (or 7 Day Notice), and to certify such design is in compliance with the Second Schedule to the Building Regulations insofar as they apply to the building or works concerned, and 

https://nbco.localgov.ie/sites/default/files/2016-10-21_code_of_practice_for_inspecting_and_certifying_buildings_and_works_final_version-2016.pdf

there is no requirement for the architectural designer of the building to be the "design certifier" and im many cases it is not the architectural designer who undertakes the "design certifier" role.

it is disingenuous in the extreme to suggest that the "design certifier" role is somehow equitable to the architectural design of the building.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119229165#Comment_119229165

https://www.dkit.ie/courses/school-of-engineering/built-environment/bsc-%28hons%29-in-building-surveying.html

This is the 4 year course Eastwood referred to.

Quote:

"While Building Surveyors are qualified to design and oversee the construction of new buildings, they specialise in the sustainable management, maintenance and upgrade of existing buildings, work that is necessary irrespective of economic conditions."

Is a graduate from this course with suitable experience qualified to design and oversee the the op's project?

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119244453#Comment_119244453

the answer is right in front of you.....

do you see "educated in architectural design" anywhere here:

they specialise in the sustainable management, maintenance and upgrade of existing buildings, work that is necessary irrespective of economic conditions.

There may certainly be "building surveyors" out there who have years of experience in doing this level of work, because, at domestic level, there is many cross overs of different disciplines. however i still stand by my initial statement that building surveyors are not educated in architectural design. The short design module they have in college is there for them to be able to understand, translate and appreciate the design order for them to provide their specialist skill of "sustainable management, maintenance and upgrade of existing buildings, work that is necessary irrespective of economic conditions. Environmental awareness, sustainability issues, economic restraint and building legislation dictate that increasing emphasis is placed on the effective utilisation of proposed and existing buildings"

again, there needs to be an understanding here that "design and oversee the construction of a building" means "designing the construction" and NOT "designing the form". Contrary to what was posted above, there is no statutory restriction on who can design a building (architectural). However there certainly is set standard as to who is educated (and trained) to design a building, essentially that profession is architects. And i say all this as NOT an Architect. They do not go through 5 years of college and 2 years of Part 3 internship to be on a level with a second year building surveyor who has done two modules in "building design"

so to answer the OPs question, definitely NOT the builder. An architect is the best profession as you can be guaranteed they have an appreciation for design (from they qualification). Otherwise you may try to find an Architectural Technician, Building Surveyor, Engineer, Draughtsman etc who has a sufficient bank of experience in the field. even at that you may not be guaranteed anything more than a pedestrian solution to your brief, but that may be all your looking for as well.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119244717#Comment_119244717

Yes, I know the answer was in the piece I quoted, it was more a rhetorical question.

I thought perhaps it was a false claim.

Thanks for that very detailed explanation.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119221771#Comment_119221771

Plenty of people get extensions done without an architect.

If it is a basic square box on the back of your house, a competent builder can do that for you and an engineer can certify it.

Likewise changing the internal layout is definitely something a builder can do, I wouldn't dream of getting an architect for that if it's only a case of taking down (non-structural) walls or blocking them up.

However if you want something more complex or need advice on design, that's when you need an architect.

mct1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058250835/getting-an-architect

Our experience:

Extension 1 1997 - not long in the country - simple single storey extension one end of bungalow. We used an architect and what turned out to be a nightmare builder. Architect's initial design was well over spec and got pared down considerably. Her chief role during the build was to terrorise him into action, stop him cutting corners, and finally remove him from the job. Grateful she was there to support us through all that.

Extensions 2&3 2007 - single storey plus two-storey extension on hillside. Since we knew pretty much what we wanted design-wise we used an architectural technician (ie not an architect) to draw up the plans, employed a very good builder, and hired a structural engineer who was absolutely worth his weight in gold and did the certification. A quantity surveyer - not employed directly by us - was also involved somewhere along the line. The process worked well and we were very happy with the result.

Just posting to demonstrate there are different and equally valid ways of approaching an extension build depending on your needs.

C. Eastwood

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119244453#Comment_119244453

I am providing the OP with proper correct unbiased information to their query above on 18 June 2022, in relation to the changing the layout of a House, and the Design and Construction of a Domestic Extension.

The details given above herein are from an Educational Institution in relation to their Degree in Building Surveying.

The answer to the question- “ is a graduate from this course……,,,.qualified to oversee the op’s project”- The answer is absolutely NO!

The answer would be the same for - “is a graduate with a degree in Law with experience - qualified to give legal advice?” The answer is- unless they are a Practicing Solicitor, or a practicing Barrister, - NO.

Is a graduate with a degree in Accounting with experience entitled to certify all Accounts - the same as a Chartered Accountant - the answer is No.

Etc.

The graduate in Building Surveying needs to become a Chartered Building Surveyor, and therefore requires Training and Experience and Education etc, which is obtained when the graduate is employed for a number of years by a Chartered Building Surveyors Practice etc, and after completing Assessment and Interviews etc with the Society of Chartered Surveyors Ireland before they will be conferred with the title Chartered Building Surveyor, and granted dual Chartered Membership of both the Society of Chartered Surveyors Ireland (MSCSI) and also with the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors (MRICS) (which is a worldwide organisation with worldwide accredited and accepted qualifications).

The link below is to a Clear Guide to the many Services provided by Chartered Building Surveyors which is produced by the Society of Chartered Surveyors Ireland and the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors (worldwide).

On the third page under the heading Design - inter alia- gives one of the many Services provided by a Chartered Building Surveyor as follows:-

Design

• Building Surveyors can develop a project from initial conception through to final design stage whether commercial or residential.

• Because of their wide knowledge base, Building Surveyors are well suited to leading a multidisciplinary team, to completion of refurbishment, new build and space planning projects.

https://scsi.ie/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Guide-to-Chartered-Building-Surveyors-Services.pdf

Former Former Former

Her chief role during the build was to terrorise him into action, stop him cutting corners, and finally remove him from the job.

Just if the OP is still reading, worth noting that most architects don't manage the build as standard, it's an additional service at (substantial) additional cost.

Best idea is if any of your neighbours have done similar work, go and ask them what they did.

C. Eastwood

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119251903#Comment_119251903

Correct.

Many Architects are State Registered Design Certifiers.

Many of the Architects are not State Registered Assigned Certifiers.

With many of the Construction Projects by Architects, a Building Surveyor is appointed to the role of the State Registered Assigned Certifier in order to obtain the Certificate of Compliance with Building Regulations on Completion, from the Building Control Management System (BCMS), which is a requirement before the completed Building can be occupied.