FEC committee & final report - **UPDATE post 442**

BSA International

Oh the politicans will attend, smile, nod their heads, make all the right noises and then do nothing or put the boot in........as usual !

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120527594#Comment_120527594

A few of us met the head of the Justice Committee and his counterpart in the Seanad regarding the semi auto ban. While they both agreed with us, they then voted along party lines because of the whip system. What we have in this country is a sham democracy. It's clearly not a democracy when politicans can't vote whatever way they want without serious consequences if they vote against their Fuhrer.

tonysopprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120527456#Comment_120527456

Not on spotify and link will not open. Is there any other way to view this?

otmmyboy2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120528029#Comment_120528029

https://open.spotify.com/episode/6E5pos0zh3I6rI0E8KMJBw

I don't use it either(no account needed), but removing the errant . at the end worked for me.

garrettod

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120527638#Comment_120527638

I don't think that matters, as much as it used to - we've seen a couple of politicans vote against their party recently, lose the whip (temporarily), but then the party realises that they need the TDs vote, so they hug and make up.

Rats on sinking ships, come to mind....

The message just needs to be made very, very, clear - support Browne on this issue, and all firearms licence holders, their families, and their friends, will go out of their way, to ensure that the politicans in question, don't get re-elected!

Grizzly 45

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120528044#Comment_120528044

Duely corrected. Thanks for the point out.

Oh the politicans will attend, smile, nod their heads, make all the right noises and then do nothing or put the boot in........as usual !

But at least we have a chance of putting our side over in person.Which would be much better than a rigged questionnaire and limited scope to answer as proposed by the DOJ online forum.Why should we belive it will be any different than the birds directive?There is a VERY good reason the DOJ wants this online...

Zxthinger

Another thermal that’s able to distinguish between birds in the bush and foxes at range.

https://youtu.be/pZIWxPkdqmk

Vizzy

Ah, but that one is so good that it should only be used by a trained professional.

Lethal in the wrong hands( although the price might put them off a bit) 😁

Grizzly 45

Your simple instruction vid on becoming an expert on using Nv or thermal..PLUS adding one if the basic rules of gun and hunting safety.

Keep your snot hook off the Pew switch until you know exactly what and where your Pews are going to go and hit!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hYJ9BRIvdU&ab_channel=4MRRanch

Cass

Online portal regarding input from stakeholders .

https://www.gov.ie/en/consultation/411f7-consultation-on-the-recommendations-of-the-reports-of-the-firearms-expert-committee/#

hiddenmongoose

All closed questions, no opportunity to elaborate. Some very loaded questions. People need to be very careful with their answers or you will be pigeon-holed with what calibres you can use, look at the question regarding fox for example. The reloading question references 'this reccomendation was the view of only one member of the commitee'' clearly to try bias the opinion that it is a bad recommendation, why was it not highlighted in other questions that the Gardai could not provide any data to support this recommendation?

Storage question would have us require a walk in bank vault at the whim of your super as it does not specify what a large quantity of firearms is.

A new calibre...you need shoot now like an apprentice with someone that already has that calibre!!

No provision for certain calibres for eg .338lm for ELR.

Requiring national standard body rules to justify certain calibres...what rules are there for ELR or PRS at a national body level?

National standard certification for night shooting...A money racket, wonder who would have a vested interest in that, maybe a committee member who has very close personal ties to a minister pushing this through?

Written permission, so there goes half of peoples permissions overnight as Irish farmers hate written permissions, and definetly there goes the ability to bring a friend up to your spot for a days hunting on your permissions.

Again this has a strong agenda , be very careful how you answer this, I would advise push against all recommendations that put forward new restrictions .

The FEC was an agenda driven loaded committee, the report was agenda driven and this consultation is also clearly agenda driven. What will be the point of Rep bodies meeting the minister by the end of all this. Rep bodies should have made a better consolidated effort to highlight the concerns about the composition of the FEC in the first place and had it scrapped, Rep bodies should have been at the table from day 1

berettaman

I have never seen a survey with so many loaded questions.

This is some sh1te.

You would need the wildlife act and the firearms act in front of you while filling it in.

Its obvious someone wants a range and "practical shotgunning" or combat pistol stuff to happen.

The chimpanzee issue I wasn't aware of..

Feisar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120550681#Comment_120550681

Dunno about chimpanzees but it looks like a monkey wrote the survey...

Cass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120550529#Comment_120550529

Absolutely agree with you on the premise of the questions. You need to read, then re-read them, to fully understand the question and give the best possible answer. They don't light "not" or more accurately the negative some questions imply.

As for some of the questions, its back to the crap we've had to deal with from almost 12 years ago with proficiency (although its not outright said) courses, graduated licensing, training courses, etc.

Other than being a disaster for the sport those ideas were floated many years back and were dismissed by every other organisation, other than the one that suggested it, as unworkable and most importantly ILLEGAL. To apply for a firearm you don't need is a fraudulent application so to apply for one you don't need simply to "get onto the firearm ladder" they are recommending implementing is illegal and would require a re-write of the firearms act.

Also as a word of warning to those completing the survey. Have access to the relevant bits they quote and ask questions on. Don't answer blind and understand what they are asking. The questions are indeed loaded with some questions asking about maximum calibers meaning if enough people went "yeah, that sounds ok" then they'll restrict the shooting of some quarry to specific calibers only. As it stands a lot of the caliber related questions don't exist in law so there is no need to help them initiate such restrictions.

By the way for anyone looking for help with the legal bits, here is the full act with all amendments, SIs, etc. Simply scroll down to the relevant bit.

Section 2(5)(a-f) -

(5) (a) The Superintendent of any district may authorise in writing the possession, use or carriage of firearms or ammunition in that district in any of the circumstances specified in paragraphs (d), (e), (f), (g) F18[, (h)] F19[, (j) or (k)] of subsection (4) of this section F20[, or of any component parts of a firearm,] during such period, not exceeding one year, as may be specified in the authorisation.

(b) A Superintendent shall not grant an authorisation under this section unless he is satisfied having regard to all the circumstances (including the provision made or to be made for the storage of the firearms and ammunition to which the authorisation (if granted) would relate and the supervision of their use) that the possession, use or carriage, as the case may be, of firearms or ammunition in pursuance of the authorisation will not endanger the public safety or the peace.

(c) Where it is proposed to grant an authorisation under this section in respect of a F21[…] club or a range or other place referred to in paragraph (d) of subsection 4 of this section, the authorisation shall be granted to an officer of the club nominated by the club or to the person in charge of the range or other place as the case may be, and where there is a contravention of a condition imposed in relation to the grant of such an authorisation and the contravention is proved to have been committed with the consent or approval of or to have been facilitated by any neglect on the part of the person to whom the authorisation is granted, that person shall be guilty of an offence under this Act.

(d) A Superintendent may impose in relation to the grant of an authorisation under this section such conditions (if any) as he considers necessary to prevent danger to the public and, where a condition is imposed, it shall be specified in the authorisation.

(e) An authorisation under this section may be revoked at any time by the Superintendent of the district in which it is granted.

(f) A person who contravenes a condition imposed in relation to the grant of an authorisation under this section shall be guilty of an offence under this Act.

and

Section 3(6)

(6) Where the firearm is a shot-gun, the firearm certificate may, subject to subsection (11) of this section, authorise it to be used only for killing animals or birds other than protected wild animals or protected wild birds within the meaning of the Wildlife Act 1976 by the holder of the certificate either (as may be expressed in the certificate)—

(a) on land occupied by the holder, or

(b) on land occupied by another person.

and

Section 4(2)(g)

(g) complies with such other conditions (if any) specified in the firearm certificate, including any such conditions to be complied with before a specified date as the issuing person considers necessary in the interests of public safety or security,

and

Section 4(2)(h)(ii)

(ii) has demonstrated that the firearm is the only type of weapon that is appropriate for the purpose for which it is required.

solarwinds

Have just heard a clip on the Newstalk news from an earlier discussion. Apparently there are 17 firearms for sale on Facebook today in the Rep. Of Ireland. There reporter contacted META for comment and got back a reply on the rules breeched about selling "weapons" on their platform.

Why would a "tech" correspondant be looking at such things ? Let alone put together a piece about it for broadcast on the National airwaves.

The other side have started their campaign to drip feed negative scare mongering stories to the press a long time ago. Can our bodies not respond and refute or try and get air time to promote the good news stories for our side for once.

tonysopprano

https://www.ontheditch.com/fianna-fail-minister-directly-appointed/

The Ditch has managed to get more ministers sacked/relieved of post than any other news outlet, lets hope this is another notch on their belt

Grizzly 45

Guys,

Ill say this ReThe orgs as FUNI is now part of FURG.We are on it. Things are going to happen,Im not going to say what,but it will be a busy month for us all in the orgs, the govt,and the dail. As for this survey,Id advise you all hold off filling this in in a tizzy,and take your time and read over it and ask your orgs for assistance😉on questions you arent sure on.

It looks horrible alright,but think back to your leaving cert exams.Read the question a few times and you get a good jist of what they are asking.Forget the legal bumf its a distraction.

dalalada

any one notice the double negatives used in many of the key questions? Obviously done to trick and confuse. Disgusting and reinforcing the biased nature of the direction the government and TPB want this to go. Totally undemocratic. It should be as impartial and as unbiased as possible. Hence the tip to re read the Q.

hiddenmongoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120550887#Comment_120550887

You are not the only one who has noticed this, lots of recent coverage about international shootings recently too. All scaremongering by the propaganda machines

hiddenmongoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120551248#Comment_120551248

Everyone should email their local TDs and link this, ask the question is this acceptable and demand it be raised in the Dail

Cass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120551248#Comment_120551248

Jesus H Christ.

I missed this post and just now read the article.

How can this FEC committee claim to have anything resembling impartiality given his previous proposals on the so called coalition and now this?

solarwinds

This article while interesting but not surprising has the potential to do the shooting community damage.

If this man has been picked as a representative of the shooting community based on his "vast experience" and shows complete disregard for safety, could this be some how used to beat the rest of us with, as in a disregard for safety and the safe handling of firearms within the shooting community.

Are those images put out in that article really what we want the general public to think really goes on.

tonysopprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120552550#Comment_120552550

Totally agree on the 1st point.

Why do you think that he was picked, only because he was a PATSY that they could manipulate and use, to be used against us. Brings back memories of a certain range in 2007/8, with JCB's, and canoe's that were used to fortify the 2009 law.

The images that were published last week, showing some of our imports, posing and carrying AR15's and huge machetes, threatening to kill "whities" , while walking through residential areas of Navan, Co. Meath (identifiable by street signs) have disappeared off FB and WhatsApp, so what makes you think that the PTB won't continue to release what they want to, to try to subdue us

garrettod

Still waiting to see any real action, from our representative groups 🙄😡

Grizzly 45

Wouldnt be too worried about it.If he was chosen as a patsy,crony more like it,it just shows how corrupt and sloppy the whole process was by Browne.Anyone asked about it should simply say it was pointed out to the minister and the dept and any TDs ad nauseum that this guy came with major baggage from a disagreement with the shooting community IE SCovi,and was NOT a repersentative in any way of us.

Contary to Brownes assurances of him being a gun dealer,and range operator.A range that wasnt authorised it seems by Brownes own dept back then and a dealership that was gone for the last ten years. BASIC backround checks by anyone competant in the interviewing process or choosing a canditate would have told anyone that this was not the right man for the job and damn the political pull.

As for the thoroughly nasty political attitude of this individual,do we really want someone like that in charge of "firearms training "or even possesing such?

In fact those pics should be used to demonstrate a very good reason WHY the range was closed because of the gross saftey violations in gun handling and the fact that it seems unliscensed people are posing with restricted firearms.An absolute NO under the act!

No this is a mess of Brownes own making and trying to deflect this onto us gunowners wont work.

Grizzly 45

Brings back memories of a certain range in 2007/8, with JCB's, and canoe's that were used to fortify the 2009 law.

Totally different situation that people were warned not to do in the shooting community to show dept and ags what ipsc was all about.

TheEngineer1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120553424#Comment_120553424

What's the piece of legislation that only allows non restricted firearms to be used at an authorised range by non-certificate holders? I remember seeing it a while back but can't find it.

otmmyboy2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120553732#Comment_120553732

https://revisedacts.lawreform.ie/eli/1925/act/17/section/2/revised/en/html

Section 2, part 6 at the bottom of the text.

Basically the club/range authorisation covers non restricted firearms, which means that you can use a non restricted, which you are not licenced on, on a range/club under their "blanket" authorisation, essentially.

In any other circumstance that usage would be a criminal offence, unless covered by another authorisation/licence.

Cass

I would advise lads to take their time, don't rush to fill in that survey as there is a month before it closes and see what their organisation is doing prior to completing it.

My concern would be the DoJ cherry pick the bits they want from the survey, ignore the rest and use the replies to bolster their agenda.

The above about the members of the FEC, not that is was a surprise, throws open a can of worms that we all knew and there might be something there.

So don't rush to fill in the survey.

solarwinds

By answering the questions negatively on dealership level security, training and whatever else can also be used to suggest we are against change which would make for "greater public safety" in our sport. By answering positively to implent changes, well then sure we asked for them and we got what we wanted.

It is very difficult to see any kind of a positive for us from that survey.

Cass

Exactly, loaded questions.

Grizzly 45

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120555952#Comment_120555952

It's a stupid and badly thought question on whoever put this together part on security.

Because if you have a dealer level of security checked off by aGS, we might as well all apply then for dealerships off the DOJ as our security is compatible!

This would be great,as you could then have unlimited stock of arms and ammo. Wait 6/12 months and apply for your restricted dealer's license, CF handguns and semi-auto,and huge calibre rifles anyone?Who says you have to sell them in Ireland?As a gun dealer, you are perfectly entitled to trade and sell internationally and import and export stock.

Going by a total " baby" gundealer who recently got his license,if AGS is happy with your security and character, and they must be if you have a substantial amount of firearms needing this security level.The DOJ cant really refuse you a dealer license in that case.

This is a prime example of "the law of unintended consequences!" when applied to firearms legislation.

As for training and all the rest Disagree,as whatever we do in the public perception or media we are dammed if we do and dammed if we don't.So unless there is a discussion on how this should be achieved ,and not just an "owl and the ants" proclimation from on high we might as well give them two fingers [unlike digger bucket and chainsaw man,who is probably laughing himself silly as a lot of this is his wet dream legislation back in the SCovi days]

Gumbo

One example. Whoever put this consultation together should be appalled at the wording used.

What happened to the public service commitment to use plain English.

emphasis on “should not” be conditioned!

Grizzly 45

justiceeiresurveys.qualtrics.com Looks like some Jobsworthy in the Dept got foisted with this and just took the entire FC report and stuck a multiple choice answer box under the cut&pasted pertinent paragraphs. Cheap & nasty work.

garrettod

None of this takes away from the fact that the Minister has rolled it out, and can now claim that he gave everyone a chance to offer their opinion..... He's one step closer to his end goal!

Grizzly 45

On a lighter note,but still with ge on filling out govt surveys like this,and it does seem that our political masters do use this programme sometimes as a manual on how to work a govt.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahgjEjJkZks&pp=ygUxeWVzIG1pbmlzdGVyIGZvciBhbmQgYWdhaW5zdCB0aGUgbmF0aW9uYWwgc2VydmljZQ%3D%3D

Zxthinger

Lithuanian laws have been recently relaxed to allow allow full auto firearms in private ownership while we are here arguing about and extra round in a rimfire pistol.. lol

I know they have there reasons for releasing these firearms for private sale but prior to this they had SA Centrefire Rifles and centrefire pistols and no issues.. We are here dealing with nonsense pertaining to a lowering of the legal stature of our air rifles while other countries are just properly licensing their ‘law abiding folk’ and monitoring the situation.

We have all heard the cry from the PTB that Deer need to be culled yet they’re aiming to removed the optimum tool for pest management..

Does any of this actually make any sense. What is it that they think they are hold long back..

?

Grizzly 45

The former E blocs realised the advantage a long time ago of being armed when they had the joys of 60-odd years of Moscow's boot on their necks.Its also that they are more bolshie than the rest of the EU countries on these issues as they are not too happy swooping a dictatorship of Brussels with the one in the Kremlin.Esp if they could be the frontline countries if the Russian bear decides to have another swipe at empire building sometime.

Gumbo

https://www.thejournal.ie/gun-ownership-ireland-6060473-May2023/

solarwinds

That is some article. Is there some Dept. just handing out pre written articles for print.

Another example of the slow drip feed of negativity included in the article.

TheEngineer1

Have any of the FURG groups released statements regarding, or made people aware of on social media, the Dept of Justice survey? Even if it is completely loaded against the shooting community (Lack of questions on SACF rifles and CF pistols is very telling. I can't see anyone in government passing amendments for this up and coming criminal justice act to remove the reference to SACF rifles).I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere.

BSA International

One thing for sure we will have more restrictions heaped on us and will get no concessions.......irregardless of this joke consultation or any other with FURG or anyone else. This is already in the pipeline !

tonysopprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120565595#Comment_120565595

Just like in 2008, where a criminal event, with illegal firearms, was used to stamp on our necks, this article is using the actions of 1 mentally deficient being, (however unsavory or regrettable) to again stamp on our necks, despite there being "According to published figures from An Garda Síochána in 2020, there were 208,835 active gun licences.", held by THE MOST LAW-ABIDING members of society, who did not kill their wives or kids or neighbours AND -deleted-

If only the Garda Siochana had a record, as good as ours.

Zxthinger

Maybe they should get people to do courses on Axe ownership and knife usage.. and the correct storage for car jack and Hurley sticks..

Im not going to forced to join a gun club..

Anyway, how would that stop a potential incident..

If they want a similar system to NI with hunter mentorship then theyd want to be offering everything else that exists in NI..

garrettod

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120566565#Comment_120566565

Very good question - haven't seen Jack, from any of them 😒🥵

berettaman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120552726#Comment_120552726

There is a lot going on from Rep groups, not a lot of it is in the open.

😉

Grizzly 45

I bet that student rag posing as a "newspaper" AKA The journal didn't expect the overwhelmingly "negative" comments to this twisted tat of an article. The journal.ie, Buzz.ie, Irish central.ie are all anti-gun "papers"[,if we could give them that title] with little to no influence.

TheEngineer1

There's a thread on the r/Ireland sub-Reddit atm regarding the SACF ban, vast majority of the comments support continuing allowing them to be licensed surprisingly enough. There is no public support for this ban.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ireland/comments/13cyck3/semi_automatic_rifle_ban/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

Only certain members of AGS (who are not answerable to the electorate) are pushing for this.

There shooting community don't support it, and the general public doesn't support it.

Asus1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120579502#Comment_120579502

Had a look at that there.Its always funny to see people making up stories in their head then putting it online thinking their story which they made up will be taken as gospel.I won't say which person is lying,have a look yourself it won't be hard to see.I see some like to use weapons instead of firearms as well so it's probably going down that path.

Feisar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120579569#Comment_120579569

In fairness a lot of people including those on our side of the fence use the term weapon. I specifically remember a Beretta Urika being described as "some weapon of a yoke". Clearly the gentleman meant it was a nice handling gun, for a semi.