Planning permission public consultation on solar panels

BrianD3

Public consultation opened today. The new regs would see removal of the absurd 12 square metre planning exemption limit for rooftop solar. I have only skimmed through the proposed regs, one thing that I did see was that domestic ground mounted arrays seem to be limited to 25 square metres area and 2.5 metre height to be exempt.

Also that the 25 square metre limit may be eaten into if there are other free standing "such structures" on the site. This could mean sheds, garages, carports etc.

I previously had a discussion with somebody on another boards forum here on exempted developments who was adamant that free standing garages etc. for which planning have been obtained eat into the exempted development shed area allowance. To be fair to them they backed up this view with a Inspectors report from An Bord Pleanala.

https://www.gov.ie/en/consultation/3813e-public-consultation-on-the-draft-planning-and-development-act-2000-exempted-development-no-3-regulations-2022-and-the-draft-planning-and-development-solar-safeguarding-zone-regulations-2022-solar-exemptions/

Mickeroo

Does it show the "43 solar safeguarding zones" anywhere in the documentation?

Edit: Didn't look hard enough, it's the second document. So basically any town with a hospital in it is no better off, what a load of shite.

BrianD3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119205279#Comment_119205279

My reading of it is that there is a 60 square metre exemption limit for commerical building rooftop solar in the safeguarding zones - but no limit for domestic rooftop solar in the safeguarding zones. So still a massive improvement from the current situation.

Mickeroo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119205526#Comment_119205526

That's not too bad at all then. I should probably sit down and read it properly before getting worked up I guess😂

BrianD3

Anyone interested in ground solar should be getting worked up or at least taking a strong interest in this - for the reasons outlined in my first post. If ground arrays are included in the part of the planning regs that covers exempt sheds, anyone with an existing exempt shed or even a shed that has been granted PP, may not be able to have an exempt ground array.

The definition of "such structures" is critical here.

harderthanf

Isn't it that you need to be left with 25m2 in your garden after the install. Rather than the size has to be under 25m2 ?

BrianD3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119205736#Comment_119205736

it's both. Reading it again, the fact that it says "such installations" rather than "such structures" may mean that solar PV ground arrays are not being lumped in with exempt garages, sheds etc.

"4. The total aperture area of any free-standing solar photo-voltaic and solar thermal collector installations taken together with any other such existing free-standing installations, shall not exceed 25 square metres.

5. The placing or erection of any free-standing solar photo-voltaic or solar thermal collector installation shall not reduce the remaining area of private open space, reserved exclusively for the use of the occupants of the house, to the rear or to the side of the house to less than 25 square metres."

slave1

60m2, what a joke, I've 64m2.

Also, is this the same Legislation as here which mentions up to 4m ground arrays as this legislation mentions 2.5m limit

Planning and Development (Solar Panels for Public Buildings, Schools, Homes and Other Premises) (Amendment) Bill 2021 – No. 88 of 2021 – Houses of the Oireachtas

BrianD3

4 metres is the max height of an exempted development shed/garage with a pitched roof. The fact that this latest document places a height limit of 2.5 metres for solar arrays may actually be good news in a way as it might mean that they are not being lumped in with exempt sheds, carports and garages And therefore not subject to the cumulative limit of 25 square metres (if you have a 20 square metre detached garage and want to erect a garden shed, you need PP for anything over 5 square metres)

harderthanf

Also, it's hardly retrospective, eh? I've an exempt shed and the ground mount already in place. Surely they can't come looking for changes at this stage?

BrianD3

Local authorities can come after people if sheds and solar arrays have been erected that didn't comply with the regulations that were in place at the time. For political and other reasons (e.g. LAs being underresourced and useless), they probably won't. But the new regs won't provide any sort of legal amnesty to those who have existing arrays >12 sq metres without PP.

There was a case in Limerick? where the Council did go after somone who installed more than 12 sq metres without PP, afaik the Council lost that one but I don't know if it set a legal precedent.

slave1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119205809#Comment_119205809

In the Legislation I linked to a ground array of up to 4m is planning exempt. I'm already aware of the current 4m pitched shed roof as I had to adhere to that with my expansion

slave1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119205761#Comment_119205761

I think you are quoting the old legislation being replaced, the new limit of total panels is 60m2 not 25m2, both of which are too low

BrianD3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119205988#Comment_119205988

25 for residential, 60 for commercial in the new draft regs, I haven't look at the old draft ones that you linked to.

slave1

25 is a joke so, to fill a normal 4bed semi roof front/back takes 40m2

Furze99

Isn't it really about context? Solar panels look fine on many modern buildings and in industrial sites etc.

They look cat on period houses and out of context in suburban open areas.

That's why we have planning regulations.

the_amazing_raisin

For anyone with enough patience to read the document, are they doing anything on roof edge limits?

AFAIK the limit is 50cm from the roof edge to the panels, seems like way too much, you'd lose a full column of panels on that

Should be 10cm, and down to 0cm if you get an engineer to sign off on it

BrianD3

New draft regs require 50 cm from edge of roof to panels.

Reading the docs is a pain in the arse but this is an important public consultation. We should be pulling the docs apart and making submissions, not waiting for someone else to do it. The response to previous public consultations such as the Right to Request Remote Work was pitiful and this may well have contributed to those regs being a joke and more about preventing remote work than facilitating it.

slave1

100%, I'll be emailing a word doc to look at increasing sq ft and height of ground mounts (which has not been updated from existing rules)

mp3guy

Did I read this right that the limits are only on ground arrays or within the restriction zones? And outside that it's unrestricted?

RIP North Dublin

slave1

But they are also limiting TOTAL sq footage of panels to max 25m2....unless I read that wrong

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119206212#Comment_119206212

Damn, I'll definitely give it a read when I've more time and usable braincells and fire in a response with my views on roof edge limits

50cm gap for me literally takes a full row and column of panels away

Although I think I'd be around 36m2 anyway, so won't be exempt from planning

mel123

I have a Karen next door to me. Due to get roof panels in a few months. Should I apply for pp?

mp3guy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119212226#Comment_119212226

Yes you read that wrong, that's for ground mounted.

loyatemu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119208987#Comment_119208987

eh?

markpb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119214246#Comment_119214246

I have the same type of neighbour. All our panels went on the back and side roof and, due to the pitch of the roof, they aren't really visible from ground level so no-one is any the wiser.

mel123

Yeah my neighbour has already objected to pp for an extension went as far as an board planala costing us time and a lot of money so now I’m wondering if I should apply for it or just go ahead and hope for the best (best being she will object but they won’t pay any heed)

markpb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119217116#Comment_119217116

Any chance she has holidays coming up? Or even a day trip away. You’d be surprised how quickly they can be installed 😊

KCross

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119212243#Comment_119212243

Isn’t the 50cm thing for safety though (wind, mainly).

A good storm from the right direction and pop… so, would you really want it out closer to the edge and then have them ripped off for the next storm?! 😉

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119218647#Comment_119218647

It used to be 30cm, did we suddenly get more storms?

I'm sure an exemption could be granted if there were wind deflectors or something were added as a requirement

KCross

It used to be 30cm, did we suddenly get more storms?

or they found that 30cm wasn’t enough! 😉

I don’t know, just saying it’s not there to be awkward or for aesthetic reasons.

slave1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119212226#Comment_119212226

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119214451#Comment_119214451

Phew, I'm on 24m2. Still, I have a Karen next door🙄

bullit_dodger

Well, technically it used to be 12m^2 (still is if that legislation hasn't been passed) and nobody was worried including me with 23.5m^2. I'm planning on adding 2x more panels to my main roof and another 6 panels to the brick shed I have out the back.

Am I worried? With the new limit of 25M^2 ?

Nahh. It's a step in the right direction that change. I get it. There has to be "some" limit. I wish it was like 40m^2 which would put it at about 10Kwp, which is more than adequate for 95% of people. The reality though is unless someone seriously complains, there's no enforcement of any of those rules. You could argue the philosophical stance that even without enforcement, that doesn't mean that you should willy-nilly break them - and you'd have a point, but think having 27m^2 isn't like I've murdered someone. Karen's of the world not withstanding.

The 50cm is only for SEAI for your grant. If it's your dime, and you have 35cm......good luck in getting a county council man onto my roof with a ruler to prove me wrong. To be fair though, knowing a little of aerodynamics, while 50cm might be a lot.....I wouldn't push it right to the edge either. The loading does increase on the panels. I'd have at least 20cm there.

BrianD3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119229940#Comment_119229940

25 square metres is the new limit for an exempt free standing solar installation (i.e a ground frame) on a residential site. Limit is 60 sq metres on a commercial site.

There is no size limit on rooftop solar unless it is on a commercial building in a safeguarding area in which case the limit is 60 sq metres.

Different rules if the building is a protected structure or in an architectural conservation area.

This idea that the planning authority won't enforce or measure anything and that you'd need to be living next door to a Karen to have a problem is probably mostly true but shows how much of a joke our planning system is. What happens if Karen has political connections or relatives working in the planning dept - then the council planning enforcement people might actually get the finger out.

Lots of people have been ignoring the existing regs for years. Now we have the concept of solar safeguarding areas near airports etc. If, pre 2022, someone had erected a massive array near Dublin airport without planning and there was a major plane crash with "dazzle" of the pilot listed as a contributory factor in the investigation, how would that work out legally for the parties involved. Obviously an extreme and highly unlikely but still possible event.

the_amazing_raisin

Does anyone know what defines a roof edge?

I heard at some point that the peak of a roof is different, there's only a 10cm setback required. Does anyone know if there's any truth to that?

Also does the party line of a shared roof count as an edge in this case, or can you go right up to the line?

bullit_dodger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119230134#Comment_119230134

Yeah, fair points Brian.

Again I kinda get why they'd list the airport thing - but as you say it's truly nonsense. I mentioned I've a knowledge of aerodynamics, that's actually from the fact that I have a pilot's license. In theory I guess it's possible, but more (likely) chance of a glass building doing the same or worse, and we're not banning them, or sun bouncing off a lake. Infact a lot of the time, your not even looking out, but watching the speed indicator, glide slope and localizer (ILS) - nahh, that one is .... questionable.

Still - the new planning laws are an improvement in the right direction. It doesn't 100% sit well with me though that they have this oversight for something which is inherent in helping meet our environmental promises. The Karen's of the world need to "cop on". Someone gets in panels which improve the air quality for her kids and she's complaining to the council.

Yeah, I know the type of person.....but yeah, some common sense needed.

the_amazing_raisin

What I'm not understanding is the safeguarding zones around hospitals.

Are hospitals somehow more vulnerable to glare than any apartment or office building?

Most hospital wards I've been in seem to permanently have the curtains closed anyway

Mickeroo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119230534#Comment_119230534

Helipads.

BrianD3

Reminder - public consultation closes tomorrow.

Having read the documentation more carefully, I think my initial concern about detached sheds/garages eating into the exemption limit for solar ground arrays was unfounded.

Still, the exemption limit of 25 sq metres for ground arrays is small and should be raised IMO

TerraSolis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119328770#Comment_119328770

Yeah - I'll be making a submission on that grounds. Was going to suggest 35-40 sq metres so that it aligns more closely with NC6 capacity limit for single phase. Would be helpful for people with asbestos in the roof too for example.

the_amazing_raisin

Any updates on this? I see from the site that the consultation is being reviewed, is there any timeline on when they'll tell us that we're all wrong and the draft legislation is perfect how it is?

slave1

"Us" that have already done everything wrong i.e. too many panels will always be wrong, any new laws will not be retrospective and in theory we can all be forced to take our panels down if a Karen objects and planning submitted / declined

BrianD3

Over two months since the closing date for receipt of submissions and still, "Consultation is being reviewed". No hurry at all lads - I suppose when you have already farted about on an issue for years, months are no time at all. We're only in a climate emergency and energy crisis. And shur, it'll be Halloween and Christmas soon and the civil servants will be off then.

Solar panel installers are currently snowed under with work and the vast majority of setups now being installed do not comply with current planning regulations. Is the SEAI acting as some sort of pseudo planning authority by denying grants to people who don't leave 50 cm between their panels and the edge of their roof?

Yet another Irish farce.

simpsimp

@BrianD3 - the 50cm was part of the proposed updated guidelines, so I don't think that will be disappearing any time soon.

1. The distance between the plane of the roof and the solar photo-voltaic or solar thermal collector installation shall not exceed: 15cm in the case of a pitched roof, or b. 50cm in the case of a flat roof.

2. The solar photo-voltaic or solar thermal collector installation shall be a minimum of 50cm from the edge of a roof on which it is mounted.

https://www.gov.ie/en/consultation/3813e-public-consultation-on-the-draft-planning-and-development-act-2000-exempted-development-no-3-regulations-2022-and-the-draft-planning-and-development-solar-safeguarding-zone-regulations-2022-solar-exemptions/

I enquired with my local TD a couple of weeks back, and they shared a letter from Minister Peter Burke's office dated 31 August saying that the process would be completed in the "coming months".

No rush, then.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

BrianD3

Yeah, I phrased that badly, I knew that the 50 cm setback was also part of the new draft regs. The point I was trying to make was that the only state agency "enforcing" any of the solar panel requirements in the existing planning regs is the SEAI via non payment of grants if the 50 cm setback isn't observed. A farcical situation and typical of this country - regs not fit for purpose so instead of updating them in a timely manner, feet are dragged and the existing regs are not enforced - not that the inept County Councils would have the resources to enforce them even if they wanted to.

And as per Peter Burke's office the regs will be updated in the coming months. That means next year.

the_amazing_raisin

Yeah I'm hoping this one gets across the line before next March, which is when I'm planning to install panels

I guess it wouldn't be a disaster to have to get planning permission, but it does raise the cost somewhat

paulbok

Remember planning takes a minimum of 13 weeks, and that's without only queries or objections.

BrianD3

Irish Indo saying that new regs could be signed off as early as next week

https://www.independent.ie/news/environment/solar-panel-restrictions-lifted-as-property-owners-now-free-to-install-as-many-as-they-like-42026309.html

In this thread we discussed the 25 square metre and height limitations for ground arrays in the new draft regs - if the regs are to be signed off shortly it sounds as though they are not being amended as presumably that would mean another period of public consultation? Anyhow, it's still very good news that the absurd 12 square metre limit for planning exempt rooftop arrays is going.

slave1

Good to see it in final stages, would need to see the final bill before we can peel out the key remaining restrictions

Ubbquittious

Great I am trying o buy a site and and hope to go off grid, so will likely need to plaster every square cm of roof with solar

slave1

Ground array for sure, if starting from scratch I'd look at both directional and tiltable