Father and son die at Isle of man TTs

donspeekinglesh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119198325#Comment_119198325

100% without question. Nobody involved is doing it for the fame or money.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119199692#Comment_119199692

There is a "community" around it though - no? And those lads would be idolised within that community? That was my understanding.

kirk.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119199693#Comment_119199693

There is but if you take that away they'll still race

GavPJ

20220613_210927.jpg

Imagine the uproar if horse racing was going to be banned.

bucketybuck

You have an event that is basically guaranteed to kill some people every single time it is on.

But thats ok, because people also die on the worlds highest mountain.

Girl Geraldine

Whatever about the riders knowing the risks and choosing to go ahead and race anyway, that is fair enough, but the "no-one forced the spectators to attend" argument is crazy. That is like like running a dangerous building site, flouting every safety regulation and someone has an accident and dies and you say to the judge at the inquest, "yeah well I didn't force him to work for me, he could have got a different safer job if he wanted".

Spectators might not know the risks, they might be just casual observers who came up or happened to be in the area. You cannot expect all sorts of random spectators up be aware of and understand the risks. It would be unreasonable to expect them to.

And as for relying on spectators to wave down riders in the event of an accident. That is frankly preposterous and if that is a thing, then it is a complete and total abdication of responsibility with respect to the race organisers in terms of having adequate marshalling and communication.

The safety of the spectators and circuit is shambolic at the TT. I think if a bad accident happened and a bike ploughed into a crowd of spectators there would be absolute hell to pay in the court cases to follow and everyone in authority would be steamrolled to hell and back over it and the TT would be either axed or massively cut back in speed, scale and risks.

• The race organisers would be done for not taking all reasonably practicable measures to eliminate or minimise risk to spectators or the public (wire crowd control barriers on the side of a race circuit ffs) Spectators on outsides of turns etc.
• The local authority would be absolutely roasted red raw for allowing an event to proceed on a public road (albeit closed) which posed such a danger, and not only that, but allowing such an event when they are a competent authority with respect to road safety matters and allowing it knowing full well that it was a massive danger to the public.

I think the nature and scale of the TT is such that it would be practically impossible to control it enough and make it safe. It would require an unweildlly amount of marshalling and safety equipment.

I believe this sort of thing belongs on a purpose build racing circuit where safety features particular to racing are designed in from the outset. Not on a public road network of varyiable quality and age whose primary purpose is as a public road, not a raceway.

The thing with these things is, it is all fine and grand until something bad happens, and then it is not fine nor grand anymore and the families and authorities go on a witch hunt to blame someone and they will nail everyone they find along the way for each and every failing and non-compliance they can uncover. Well, that is how the Irish HSA work anyway and I imagine the UK HSE would be fairly similar.

mickdw

I'm the last person generally who goes looking for problems or cries health and safety but I genuinely think improvements in spectator safety will secure the events long term future.

An accident killing a few spectators could likely have the entire event banned but you are all too short sighted to see this.

In today's world, someone will always be held responsible. I'm sure there is an insurer on the hook somewhere if spectators are injured or killed and they will very quickly withdraw if it costs them money ..... No more TT.

In F1, if someone dies, every change possible is immediately brought in to ensure that same accident won't result in death the next time. This can be change to car design, circuit design, marshalling or race management.

In road racing, someone dies and what action is taken? Line up the next bike.

Girl Geraldine

We often hear about the riders who are killed. But what we don't hear much about is riders who are left with catastrophic life changing disabilities which perhaps causes even more suffering and trauma to their poor families who have to straw feed and bed bath them for the next 20 or 30 years.

I think the riders not only have no regard for their own safety which is one thing, but they also seem to have no respect or compassion for their families who will be either left without them or be forced to put their own lives on hold to provide them with 24 hour intensive care for decades to come as a result of their injuries as a result of their selfish quest for adrenaline thrills.

kirk.

https://www.visordown.com/news/racing/road-racing/isle-man-tt-introduce-new-safety-measures-ahead-2022

I don't see anything about spectators there in the SMS

I reckon the spectator safety issue can't be fixed really.

There'd be no end to it if you start implementing piecemeal rules such as no spectators at bumps etc. and would divert massive resources from the operation of the event and rider safety etc.

As it stands it's the riders that are being killed not the spectators

kirk.

I'd say you'd have to reduce it to a few grandstands or no spectators at all

Try enforcing the latter impossible

Girl Geraldine

Some good stuff in that SMS but a lot of it too sounds like window dressing.

A redesigned winners enclosure? HTF is that going to improve safety? The race is over by then!

Online training modules for course marshals is a cop out. If they were serious about it it would be in person training with a genuinely rigorous assessment by a independent third party and only those who prove their compentence can be a marshal. The fact that important training is seen as something to be done while sitting on the couch in your jocks half hungover speaks a lot about the attitude towards it.

Alkers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119200080#Comment_119200080

There was two spectators killed back in 2007 and a marshal back in 2005 but other than that I don't see where you're getting this huge concern over spectator safety from?

Girl Geraldine

It is a totally unsafe circuit for racing. You have things like buildings, stone walls, lamp posts, bridge parapets etc all directly abutting the road. Not to mention that much of the track is uncontrolled and given its lengths would be almost be impossible to control to eliminate access.

The place for this is a purpose built bike racing circuit with generous run-off areas with no hard obstacles and controlled areas for spectators. That would at least give a rider some chance of survival rather than impacting into a lamp post spine first at 200mph before richocheting back out onto the circuit taking out another rider and both of them implanting into a masonry bridge abutment at 150mph.

mickdw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119200564#Comment_119200564

Yes all true but what you describe is circuit racing which also exists.

Road racing is mad by definition but any possible improvements should be made to remove obvious risks

GavPJ

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119200564#Comment_119200564

The term used for buildings,walls, street lamps etc is "the furniture"

You paint such a pretty picture of an accident. If it bothers you that much, ignore it. :-)

kirk.

As a famous sports photographer up the north said

You close the road a few bails of straw and you're racing

But you can never make it safe

mickdw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119200492#Comment_119200492

I see a YouTube clip of just after the 2 side car guys were killed. Woman out on the road waving her hands to warn the next competitors. This was in a spectator heavy section also so there was no excuse for not having that area heavily marshalled.

If spectators are allowed / encouraged to act like that, a less sensible member of the public is going to do it in a way that gets themselves killed at some stage. Or if some hippy types decided to interfere, they are likely to run into the road at any point. I don't see how the event can be run with such lack of control but judging by that sms above, changes are coming slowly although looks more like a paperwork exercise at the minute instead of any real improvements.

Girl Geraldine

I know and I think that is where bike racing should stay.

The culture around the TT is mental. I just watched a youtube of fatal crash at a place called the Raven pub where a rider still airborne after coming over a jump missed the road when landing and ploughed head first into the gable wall of the pub which is right on the roadside. Paramedics and marshals came out, pulled the bike away and then strechered the rider off the road over to the side road junction at the gable where he fatally impacted hardly 5 minutes beforehand.

The most baffling thing was, once the paramedics had finished with him, the crowd of probably a hundred or more onlookers gave a round of applause and just went back to watching the race. There were children nearby looking on and everything.

The whole thing is a bizzare culture.

enricoh

Don't really follow the sidecars but the 2 crashes were at agos leap this year.

One of the riders killed this year was at ballagarey which is a well known blackspot.

Surely they could put something in temporarily at agos for the sidecars and do some reticel fencing at ballagarey. Maybe buy up a gaff or 2 if need be.

Fair enough there's no dough in Irish road racing but I believe the TT makes a right few quid n they can afford it.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119200716#Comment_119200716

it's not for you. you have made that abundantly clear.

kirk.

There's supposed to be a new issue that particular spot where the sidecar crashes occured

jaykay2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119196802#Comment_119196802

Your argument is the same as the crazies in America who would rather let children be murdered (regularly) in schools, than impose any restrictions whatsoever on guns.

I don't know what the answer is regarding road racing like this, but your argument is not as clever as you think it is.

GavPJ

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119200737#Comment_119200737

I can see a chicane being put in there for sidecars before a complete ban is called for, for sidecars.

Girl Geraldine

The other thing that could happen is that witnesses to a crash could claim compensation from the race organisers for psychological trauma. Claiming as a witness even though you were not personally involved in an accident and are not physically injured is a well established thing and has happened.

Someone claiming this could argue that the race organisers did not take all reasonably practicable measures to limit the dangers to particiapants even when they clearly knew that the dangers existed and that there could be ways, albeit costly, to reduce the dangers but went ahead with the race anyway. And that this amounted to neglicence because they knowingly allowed a situation where gruesome fatal accidents could occur in full view of spectators and did not take any advance action to eliminate or reduce that risk.

If a particularly horrific accident occurred and a claim was laid by a few spectators, it could set a precedent that would herald the beginning of the end for this barbaric spectacle.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119200821#Comment_119200821

The spectators put themselves in that position with full knowledge of what can happen. any claim would be laughed out of court.

JP Liz V1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058249696/father-and-son-die-at-isle-of-man-tts

5 died at the event? RIP

Some are so passionate about their love for it, hard to stop them pursuing

kirk.

A lot of talk about spectator safety and very few incidents

As pointed out it was 3 riders killed at that spot and alterations will focus on rider safety

You'd be forever moving the goalposts improving spectator safety over 37 miles , probably why they don't tinker much outside the basics

bladespin

100%, absolutely no-one attends the TT by accident.

Girl Geraldine

Would they always though? You'd have no way of knowing that?

For example, you could have a family on holiday and they decide to take a day trip to the TT too see the race while they are in the area, but none of them having any particular interest of knowledge of biking, but go just for the experience. While watching a horrid accident occurs and they or one of the children is left very shaken by a gruesome death unfolding a few feet in front of them.

So I don't think your "ah sure ya should've know it was a carnage fest" defence would stand up.

And court here, rightly or wrongly, generally view neglicence claims along the lines of

(A. a person suffered harm or loss as a result of some involvement with someone else, even if indirect,) + (B. that someone else has insurance) = (C. they deserve something at least, even if their own actions contributed somewhat or if the basis of the case is obscure and convoluted)

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119200928#Comment_119200928

but the court case wouldn't be here, it would be in the Isle of Man.