Father and son die at Isle of man TTs

rogerywalters

5 people died this week so far , thats nuts , i know they knew the risks but at what stage/number does the event become under threat?

AMKC

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058249696/father-and-son-die-at-isle-of-man-tts

I remember being there in 1992 and watching it and one of the bikes crashed. It was crazy then and still is now. It takes serious bravery for any racer to want to do this race. I hope the rewards are worth it.

Pussyhands

There was a video showing spectators along the road and showing how fast the bikes go by at 200mph or something. Outrageous speeds.

rogerywalters

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119185825#Comment_119185825

Yeah to be honest i like the sport and have serious respect for them , just hard to wrap your head around how willing that many riders are to die

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119185846#Comment_119185846

I was at a bike road race years ago where they flew by a few feet from me. Unbelievably fast and scary.

AMKC

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119185974#Comment_119185974

Yes it is crazy. You would at least think the track could be made safer by now but I suppose that might take away from the event. Unless families of does killed or the racers or both look for this it will probably never change.

rogerywalters

Yeah like is the death thing a massive part of the sport? Like free soloing!

LIGHTNING

You register an account just to create this post? People dying at the TT isn't anything new.

purpleshoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058249696/father-and-son-die-at-isle-of-man-tts

A tragedy, even more so as it is a father and son.

I do hope it does not come under threat, what would the reason be?

Competitors making their own choices, living life on their terms, whilst not holding back society. I don’t have the skills or mindset to do anything like that but I would not support any action that would halt the IOM TT.

afatbollix

Last I checked it's a free country, no one is making them do it.

It's the last thing in the world where you can live on the edge, It's why they do it. For that buzz.

A few years ago my first real-world job was at the North West 200, I was looking after the big screen and there was a crash where the whole pits/crowd did a noise I'll never forget. We put it to a wide shot and checked the footage where we, unfortunately, showed a rider heading for a lamppost.

We watched back the footage and saw who it was and it wasn't looking good. Most of the riders in the pits sat on the grass lit a fag and got annoyed when the rest of the night got canceled as he passed away. I would never do it, but I would never stop them. Then again I go rallying and I had dinner with one of the top guys of the TT at a charity dinner once and he said he would never go rallying yet found the TT easy to do.

rogerywalters

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119186476#Comment_119186476

5 in a week seems a lot? No not at all. Im new. But why would i register a new account to specifacally talk about the tt

rogerywalters

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119186600#Comment_119186600

Yep its a free country as evidenced by the fact not one poster said they should stop

mickdw

It will be stopped when a road racer wipes out 5 or 6 spectators at the road side.

Riders take the risk, spectators are entitled to safety.

Personally I think the isle of man is nuts and when you have guaranteed deaths each year, it has crossed the line.

ferpederine

What a joke. So many people being killed here they don't even know who.

"A thorough review of the processes relating to the identification of competitors will take place in due course."

Yeah, that's the thing that needs reviewing. When your sport has this many deaths, it's no longer a sport.

Andrewf20

It's like f1 in the 1950s. Mad how it still goes on in this day and age. Still glad it exists in a world full of health and safety legislation.

Same with the goodwood circuit. Unchanged circuit since the 1960s in a world that tilke has ruined with pointy corners and acres of run off.

kirk.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119187189#Comment_119187189

Not sure on spectators being entitled to safety , they should know the risks too

mickdw

There really shouldn't be risk of death for any spectator going to any sporting event bar from unforeseeable circumstances. I rider losing control at 200 mph should be foreseeable and planned for.

Having spectators lining parts of roadside at the TT is negligent and I'm surprised it still goes on.

Some spectator positioning at rallying events is lunacy too.

topmanamillion

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119185825#Comment_119185825

They were around 8th place in the first lap. They were looking at about £750 in prize money. Presumably there's sponsorship but the money doesn`t seem to be the reason anyone takes part.

Around 70 deaths in the past 20 years. Only one year (1982) since 1937 where it had no deaths. Absolute carnage.

asdfg87

I get it when people want to race as the thrill of being able to do must be off the chart. However sitting in a skidecar and risking life total nonsence for me. Very sad.

kirk.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119190598#Comment_119190598

Spectators are participants in the risk same as the riders

You think they don't know the risks too

Your plan is unworkable anyhow imo

JC01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119190598#Comment_119190598

How the hell do you plan for losing a bike at 200mph on a public road?

Ive followed the TT for years and am in awe of the lads who do it. Every single one of them understand the risk involved and every one of them want to keep doing it. Road racers really are a different breed.

Condolences to all those killed but they would turn in their graves at the thoughts that the TT would be cancelled as a reaction to their own deaths.

With that said I am surprised in this day and age it’s let go ahead but long may it last, it is an absolutely phenomenal thing to witness and I imagine the thrill of taking part in it is something that can’t be experienced anywhere else on the planet.

afatbollix

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119190598#Comment_119190598

Do yourself a favor and turn off the TV and don't watch the TT. I think that will solve a lot of your problems and don't stop people from doing what they want to do with their own lives.

rustynutz

I love the TT and have been to it probably a dozen times. Unfortunately I was standing 50 meters from where the father and son where killed at the bottom of bray hill when it happened. While I thankfully didn't see the crash itself the noise was horrible, and the medics/marshals looked as white as ghosts so we knew the outcome wasn't good.

I'd be lying if it didn't make me question the whole road race scene at that moment and for a day or two after, but a bigger part of me can see why the risk is part of the attraction for both riders and spectators.

In a world gone mad with health and safety, with governments increasingly trying to protect the population from ourselves, there's something pure about road racing, man and machine against the clock, around a dangerous circuit, with rider knowing that one mistake could cost them their lives, each and everyone of the TT racers that line up at the top of bray hill should be respected and allowed to take the risk if they so choose in my opinion.

I don't think the TT will be banned as most locals love it snd it brings huge tourist to the island, but I can see the Irish road racing scene fizzling out in the next decade or so

kirk.

Hard to see the smaller races surviving here the north west will probably be the last

The battle of machine versus road is going the wrong way with them getting faster plus insurance etc.

Peter Hickman and Glenn Irwin speak about the superbikes on the road and you can see the trepidation there.

I think it was maybe Michael Rutter used to say that he only ever gives it 90% on the road and I used to wonder about that .Riders like him and John McGuiness and Joey Dunlop were so consistent and safe.

Dunno about that now the likes of Michael Dunlop is all out with maybe Hickman and Glenn Irwin able to hold a bit back

Montage of Feck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119187189#Comment_119187189

Why should the spectators be entitled to safety? If they want safety they should stay at home, they are there for the spectacle of danger.

rogerywalters

If theres 8 deaths next year would that do it? Or are we all just in agreement am average of 2 to 3 deaths a year is worth it for the spectacle? I think they should get rid of the sidecar stuff tbh.

kirk.

It comes up every year obviously punters and newspapers speculating and sensationalising

You can never make it safe and it's probably easier to improve spectator safety in fairness but as pointed out accidents are inevitable but unpredictable in their outcome so the risk will remain.

There's no doubt they're pushing the envelope now with the pure superbike guys versus the traditional road racers and it ain't getting any safer anytime soon it's going the other way

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119194976#Comment_119194976

who are we to decide what risks are acceptable to participants? If the participants are willing to accept the risks then let them at it.

AlanG

RIP to those who died. As an occasional spectator with some family involved in the sport I see both sides of the argument but I am amazed how little noise there is calling for road racing to be banned. Every time there is a death in boxing there are calls for tighter controls but road racing seems to have a far higher death rate and it barely makes the news when 5 people die.

divillybit

Spectators play an important role in the TT, in that if there is an incident they will assist the stewards by waving down the riders to get them to slow down.. the sidecars class of race aren't your typical sidecar you'd see on a road, the passenger moves around alot to shift his weight depending on if they are cornering or shelters behind the driver on the straights to minimise drag.. very interesting sport but completely mental at the same time but as other posters have said the competitors know the risk. To participate and survive it is an achievement in itself

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119195016#Comment_119195016

Are they not dying while racing on public roads? Therefore there would have to be, at least a moral, "duty of care" from the State towards giving permission for the event to take place.

There are plenty of other dangerous things and pastimes which are not allowed. Suicide was only decriminalised a few years ago (but not the assisting of it)

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119195155#Comment_119195155

are you seriously comparing TT racing with suicide?

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119195169#Comment_119195169

I am giving it as an example of something which was illegal which only directly impacted the person making the choice. (It is still illegal to assist someone to commit suicide though). Heroin is also illegal, even though it can be said that it only directly impacts those who inject it. Are you not aware that it is illegal to assist someone to commit suicide? Even though it is their choice? (See Fleming v. Ireland)

It's not that difficult of a concept. Things which hurt only a person making a decision can still be made illegal and there can be valid reasons for doing so.

If I'm an employer, I have to abide by Health and Safety standards. I can't simply just notify my staff that they waive all their statutory rights in a blanket manner, and that I waive all my obligations, by them choosing to continue to work for me. Even though it would be their choice to do so or not.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119195182#Comment_119195182

I have no interest in a discussion on suicide. it is irrelevant. FFS

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119195235#Comment_119195235

Fair enough. If you can't understand the basic concept that people can be prevented from doing dangerous things they choose to, then it's not my role to spend time explaining it to you.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119195256#Comment_119195256

i understand the concept. My issue is with your worse than stupid example of suicide.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119195263#Comment_119195263

Well then try to get your head around the alternate one of heroin which I also gave

kirk.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119195263#Comment_119195263

He's pure trollbait but I don't mind it either

All part of the circus surrounding the racing and sure the riders themselves don't take a bit of notice they just get on with it

Stephenc66

I have been involved in Motorsport for going on 27 years now as a competitor, also on the marshalling and safety side. I have family who are involved. While all car related and no where nearly as dangerous as the bikes., I have crashed, witnessed family members crash and been on events when competitors have died. I wold never not compete or be involved.

The motorbike competitors are a different breed again and have a much much higher exposure to danger. But I would never ask them to stop.

For those who aren't familiar with the sport or more particularly the mindset of the riders check out the Documentary "Road" based around the Dunlop family. An amazing and emotional watch

bladespin

Yes, it's dangerous but the riders and spectators are all fully aware of this, it's drilled into you from the time you get off the boat/plane.

It takes a special type of rider to race the TT, all are there by choice and it's certainly not for the money, even the top guys make relatively little from it compared to short circuits, it's their Everest, a mountain to conquer.

From the outside looking in it looks like madness, but if you don't understand their motivation then you never will, it's a cliché but that 's it - sorry.

It's also a historic event and a major bread winner for the government so they're very reluctant to interfere, even ending Mad Sunday (off for 2023), is seen as a huge risk and is to be reviewed after next years event.

Girl Geraldine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119194370#Comment_119194370

I would agree that the Irish road race scene will probably fizzle. The culture is different here and motorcycling culture is treated wit suspicion here and seen as thuggish.

I was party to a meeting for organising a motorsporting event where the roads policing Garda and people from the Council events and traffic departments were present, and they all seemed opposed to it. Saying things like it would encourage recklessness with respect to road safety, it attracts a rough/troublesome and hard drinking crowd, they bring crowds but they spend nothing in the local area, etc. All those types of comments. Basically the were all looking for things to say to dismiss or rubbish the proposal.

In the end it never got off the ground anyway and it was something being led by someone who is well established and very well known, successfull and respected in the Irish motorsport scene.

rogerywalters

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119194996#Comment_119194996

Ah pal , 5 deaths in a week. What needs sensationalizing there?

rogerywalters

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119195016#Comment_119195016

Fair enough , let them rip.

Girl Geraldine

The local government make nothing out of it. Sure they might make some money from road closure fees but surely they are taking on massive burden with it too.

I think the contribution to the local economy is not what it is cracked up to be. A lot of these motorbiking scene people would be coming in big team vans and spectators in campers and caravans stocked up for the week. They bring everything they need with them and on that scene the followers wouldn't be big spenders anyway. And you have to consider that the local businesses loose out in another way with all the road closures. the regular tourist who will come and spend money is locked out that week.

rogerywalters

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119195616#Comment_119195616

The Everest comparison is interesting and probably the only point id agree with for the let them at it side. Plenty die on everest which people see as the pinnacle of mountain climbing so why not let these boys road race.

GavPJ

145 have died since the TT started in 1907.

Over 200 people have died climbing Everest. Most bodies are left there. Must be lovely for the families left behind.

Over 100 people are killed from horses every year but nobody bats an eyelid because it isn't publicised. The TT

is only in the news when someone dies. Time to ban folk riding horses???

As Guy Martin says, if you don't like it, stay at home and mow your lawn and leave us to it.

rogerywalters

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119196802#Comment_119196802

100 people a yr from horse riding? How many more would do that then race motorbike on a road? We talking 10,000 to 1 or more? I accept your everest though as an interesting riposte.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119195016#Comment_119195016

Fair enough but what about the men and women who have to scrape them off the tarmac afterwards, gather up their broken equipment and wash their blood off the road?

Also, how many have been seriously injured over the years and subsequently depended on a lifetime of dedicated care to look after them?

The Everest comparison is an interesting one but if you **** up near the top no one is going to bring you down again.

bladespin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119196799#Comment_119196799

I've been there and completed several laps at full speed (for me) of the Mountain, I wouldn't race the full course but have nothing but respect for those that do, it's quite a test.

mickdw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119190923#Comment_119190923

You plan spectator facilities around the rider losing the bike at 200 mph.

Max Mosley who did a hell of a lot for motorsport and safety stated - the participant knows the risk and does it anyway. The Marshalls take on some risk. Spectators are entitled to safety. I'd agree with all that.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119194206#Comment_119194206

I love motorsport, do regular track days, have a track car etc

I don't have a problem with the riders doing it and wouldn't like to see it cancelled but the spectator management needs to change.

We can look at old F1 and see fans standing behind a few bale's and wonder what were they thinking.

In a few years time, I think we will think the same about the TT.

kirk.

What are your proposals