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Excellent article on how important small landlords are and how screwing them over hasn't worked

  • 03-06-2022 7:06am
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 648 ✭✭✭MakersMark


    Excellent article on RTE.

    https://www.rte.ie/news/primetime/2022/0602/1302731-rental-crisis-ireland/

    When Threshold is calling for 0 tax on rental income below 14k (like the current Rent a Room scheme but applied to all rent) you know something is seriously wrong.


    86% of all landlords are small landlords.

    50% of renters rent from small landlords.


    7000 small landlords have left the market in 4 years.


    Rate of small landlords selling up has almost tripled in 2 years.

    44 separate pieces of legislation introduced since 2008, not one of which helps small landlords.

    Looks like the chickens are home to roost.

    Post edited by L1011 on


«13456711

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,709 ✭✭✭Tombo2001


    Its interesting = everyone knows we have a problem with housing availability. And yet society responds by vilifying those who supply housing. And politicians follow suit, naturally.

    If there was a shortage of wheat would we be vilifying farmers. (Answer yes we probably would).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,092 ✭✭✭DubCount


    Its a relatively balanced article, but I dont think you discuss "the flight of the small landlord", without even mentioning the process for evicting non-paying or overholding tenants. This is the elephant in the room, and it doesnt even get an acknowledgement. No changes to the taxation of Landlords will matter if this is not addressed.

    As for the tenants in Sligo that featured, 70% odd is a massive hit. However, context of when the last time rent was reviewed, and what other properties in the area are renting for. I dont know Sligo well enough to know if 1500 per month for a 4 bed is cheap or expensive.

    Finally, I think the "sex for rent" element is sensationalism. This is an unspeakable experience for the lady in question, and the landlord should be charged with something for that. However, this has been discussed on boards before, and it is a rare fringe event. Its not anything thats part of the general rental market, and detracts from the overall discussion of the topic.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,872 ✭✭✭mrslancaster


    44 separate pieces of legislation? It's no wonder many small landlords are confused and its only in the past year or so that rtb have started to provide templates and forms that landlords can use to comply with their legal obligations. Before that a landlord had to be divinely inspired and was expected to understand all the nuances of each new piece of legislation with zero help from the rtb who wouldn't give any information when contacted. Their response was always that they couldn't advise on the legislation even though they are the state agency with responsibility for overseeing everything to do with the residential rental sector, you couldn't make it up.

    If a citizen or business contacted revenue with a query about tax rules they would get the information, same with DSP or WRC and many other state agencies. Citizens are entitled to information - unless they happen to be landlords it appears, while tenants can get information relevant to them from many different sources. Changes and new rules brought in with no explaination of how it would affect landlords, only tenants, even the language used on rtb website, citizens information and the dept of housing is clearly biased towards tenants. Very one-sided IMHO and i'm not a landlord.

    It looks like more legislation may be on the way for owners of vacant property and those who rent short term. Who knows, more stick might work this time. Who would want to be a landlord, we seriously need to get over the hangups from the 1800's about evil landlords and innocent tenants, we need a system that's fair to both parties and ensures everyone keeps to the rules.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Regional West Moderators Posts: 60,479 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gremlinertia


    As a tenant myself i'm a big believer in the smaller landlord and have seen the difficulty my own one has trying to sort out forms for the rtb etc. If we lose the small landlords completely i fear that the larger companies will have an unofficial cartel arrangement, a frightening possibility

    Post edited by Gremlinertia on


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,436 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Are you exaggerating your victimhood just a tad?

    Public bodies don't give professional advice. That's why we have lawyers, accountants, data protection experts and others plying their trades. Revenue won't give you professional advice based on your own scenario. They'll tell you what the rules say,and leave it to you to interpret them.

    RTB is no different to most public bodies. They're not going to provide professionally qualified staff to sit in a call centre and give expert advice. No professional advisor could work like that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,087 ✭✭✭Tow


    That is the Irish public sector for you, they take no responsibility, are hard to contact and don't give hard and clear advice. I take that back, there are sections like Revenue who believe it is better their customers have clear instructions, as getting things right first time is better than having to fix a mess.

    When is the money (including lost growth) Michael Noonan took in the Pension Levy going to be paid back?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭handlemaster


    Institutional investment companies will not invest outside the large urban areas. Towns and villages will always only have small time landlords



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭handlemaster


    Revenue will give you a form to fill in leaflets with instructions etc. RTB has only started providing forms. I dont think the poster was implying the RTB are expected to come to your home and write out termination letters etc



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    what happened the properties of the landlords who left the market?


    evaporated?



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    A considerable number are now in the shortlet/Airbnb sector, or have been sold.

    I suspect the point you are hinting at, is that if a LL sells, someone gets an opportunity to buy a home, so that’s good news. But let’s hope you understand that the tenants of that property, and many other properties are not in a position to buy a home, and most likely will have difficulty finding another rental. You must also consider that though the house may be bought by a single person/couple, there may have been four unrelated people renting the house. So twice as many people are losing accommodation as are gaining it.

    Of course I could be wrong, maybe you do think LLs knock down houses after they end tenancies, it’s ok snoopsheep, they don’t.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,263 ✭✭✭mattser


    In my own case, first home for a young couple.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,649 ✭✭✭✭ted1




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,649 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Sold to professional large landlords who will charge as much as possible. Where as a small landlord will have some compassion when set rent reviews


    this also Drives up property prices



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,436 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Really? Where can I get a refund on the very large annual fees they took off me last year?

    You seem to have missed the point. They don't provide advice, hard and clear or otherwise, because they're not supposed to provide advice. It is not one of their statutory functions. They're not funded to provide advice. Staff aren't trained to provide advice. It's a nonsensical suggestion to expect staff at the end of a phone to interpret complex legal situations and give 'hard and clear advice' over the phone to get landlords out of a messy situation. Those situations are resolved by tribunals, so you can't expect the staff member on the phone, getting half of a one-sided story to give hard and clear advice.

    Revenue don't give advice on tax interpretation either. That's why there's a huge industry of tax lawyers, accountants and consultants out there to provide professional tax advice.




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Income tax isn’t an annual fee, it is a tax on income, if you don’t earn it, you don’t pay it. If you believe you overpaid, contact Revenue, they will advise you on how you can reclaim it.

    I have received advice on a number of occasions from Revenue, including recently when I imported a machine from the US. I have also submitted enquires using their online portal and received advice on tax issues.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,436 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,872 ✭✭✭mrslancaster


    Did you read my post, I said information, not advice. And as for victimhood, haha, i'm not a landlord. Cop on to yourself.

    Citizens are entitled to understand and get information about state services or ask questions of the relevant bodies without employing a professional.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,436 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Yes, I read your post carefully, including the bit where you complain about them not being able to give advise (sic).


    Their response was always that they couldn't advise on the legislation even though they are the state agency with responsibility for overseeing everything to do with the residential rental sector, you couldn't make it up.



  • Registered Users Posts: 293 ✭✭carfinder


    For one of the biggest pedants on the site, that was one idiotic post Mr Renko - annual fee indeed 🙄



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,872 ✭✭✭mrslancaster


    That was their response when asked for information. That they couldn't ADVISE on the legislation.

    I contacted them recently to ask about the transition from part4 tenancies to indefinite duration. I know from reading the blurb that this is supposed to "happen over time" but there is no information on the website as to how that will happen. Information that is relevant to everyone in the rental market, not only landlords.

    The staff may not be legally trained but the RTB are the body with responsibility and should provide information that affects any stakeholder in that sector.

    Post edited by mrslancaster on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,872 ✭✭✭mrslancaster


    With regard to the landlord in sligo who increased the rent from €880 to €1500 per month, IMO, that is extortionate and is the type of thing that gives all landlords a bad name. Even if rent hadn't been increased for a long time, that amount would be a huge shock and very worrying for any tenant. Very few people could manage a jump like that.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    What is market rate for a 4 bed house there?

    Its a huge jump, but probably in example of why rent should be raised yearly, a LL who leaves the rent low for a long time then raises it to market rate gets slaughtered in the media. Another way of looking at it would have been that they benefited hugely from significantly below market rate rent for an extended period.



  • Registered Users Posts: 239 ✭✭sandyxxx


    It was the PRTB coming along with the €40 annual registration charge that done it for me, gave our tenants notice in March and emailed them to say as much....,it was a straw that broke the camels back and now good tenants are left picking over slim pickings for rentals,....it might have only been €40,but it was indicative of the constantly shifting paradigms that being a small landlord today has become!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,649 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Why did you revenue an annual fee?

    RTB, The RTB website provides easy access for our customers to information relating to residential tenancies


    look at this guide: https://www.revenue.ie/en/self-assessment-and-self-employment/documents/form11-helpsheet.pdf



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 516 ✭✭✭10pennymixup


    I started selling up four years ago and my first to go was four studios with about 6 people which is now a computer training school.

    My last two properties were sold in the last 7 months. with the first a family of 4 were replaced by a single parent first time buyer with one child coming from her parents house.

    The other was a family of four replaced by a family of three.....from South America.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,527 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    The majority of them are bought by couples, resulting in three and four bed homes that were previously used by 4 or more persons now being used by 2.

    It's also evident in apartment complexes. Two bedroom rented apartments are being bought by a single couple whereby they were previously rented by two couples.

    This shouldn't be hard to comprehend.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,289 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    The point is that if small investors abandon the business in the towns and villages, who will repl;ace them? In some small towns in holiday areas there is no long term rental market at all.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,289 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    There are two sides to every story. That landlord might have been carrying negative equity for years, had rent that didn't cover the repayments, not to mid NPPR, LPT and every other charge. He might have been living on beanns and toast and now needs money to pay for his mother in a nursing home, for all anyone knows.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭handlemaster


    The rent was been increased to market rate. No mention of the rent been under market value for x years.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,573 ✭✭✭tscul32


    The market rate however was based on the asking price for 3 other similar properties in the area - all also owned by the same landlord.

    I do think a jump like that is quite unfair. The average person will not be able to just absorb a jump like that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,092 ✭✭✭DubCount


    This is a very big increase for the tenants to absorb.

    The possibility of RPZ being introduced overnight means the Landlord has little option but to up rent to the maximum. If the rent was not increased to the maximum level, the introduction of a RPZ would permanently reduce possible rent from the property even if the current tenants leave, or even if the Landlord was to sell up to another Landlord. Lots of small Landlords were caught with the introduction of RPZs when keeping rent low for good tenants etc. The vast majority of those landlords have left or are leaving the market, leaving only full market value properties available.

    The government (driven on by the opposition, the "homeless charities", the media etc.) have made property letting a dog eat dog game where the nice guys get punished. I would be slow to blame the landlord who has to play the game in the context of the rules that have been set for him.

    As for the use of other landlord properties for comparison, there is only one 4 bed in Co Sligo listed on daft (1600 per month) so where else is the landlord supposed to get comparisons? No doubt there will be a new piece of legislation brought in for this as well - madness.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Pussyhands


    If you give free income up to whatever amount then investors are just going to outbid first time buyers!

    There's a shortage of places to buy not rent! There's thousands of people renting who want to buy and they can't! That's the problem.

    Landlords exiting? So what? It's not like they're demolishing the houses are they??

    Giving tax breaks to landlords doesn't create more houses.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Pussyhands


    This is such a terrible take! Thank you for squeezing as many people into a house a possible... Despite them not wanting to share with others and wanting their own space.

    Sounds like you'd be in favour of banning first time buyers from buying at all? Sure just let investors buy because they'll fill up all the rooms!

    Yes, we should ban first time buyers because a couple buying a three bed semi will just leave rooms free whereas investors will fill up all rooms and have couples sharing!



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    There's a shortage of accomodation generally, both rent and buy.

    Renters get it worse though because lots of mostly homeowning voters don't give a shite about them, we need a solid supply of places to rent.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Pussyhands


    There's be loads more to rent if more was made available to buy. I'm renting. I don't want to rent! I want to buy! If I buy then someone else who wants to rent can rent there.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭handlemaster


    I doesn't matter other renters in the area paid that rate. The landlord abided by the rules.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭handlemaster


    So if there are one willing to purchase property and rent it out to renters in the towns around Ireland you see no issue in that ? Your assuming everyone requiring housing wants to buy and has to means to buy. Its just not the case.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭handlemaster




  • Registered Users Posts: 275 ✭✭squigglestrebor




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 516 ✭✭✭10pennymixup


    That's if the landlord doesn't sell up the minute you leave, as most small private LL's are doing.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Pussyhands


    If they sell, it's because they want to spend the capital appreciation bonanza.

    Mortgages are fixed, or they should be, so the rental income vastly outweighs the mortgage even after taxes.

    And at the end of the day, their mortgage will be paid for by someone else and they have the whole asset.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,087 ✭✭✭Tow


    That post is reality. We has several houses of bed sits. Got rid of two then bedsits got banned, and brought the others up to requirements. The two sold were converted to an apartment per floor. The net result is the same houses now home ~50 less people.

    When is the money (including lost growth) Michael Noonan took in the Pension Levy going to be paid back?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 516 ✭✭✭10pennymixup




  • Registered Users, Subscribers, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,162 ✭✭✭wanderer 22


    That's a good point I love girls arses.


    :-\



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Lets scrap income tax and lower prices for everything, what could go wrong?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,872 ✭✭✭mrslancaster


    I get that, and imo small landlords have been treated with complete disdain in the past few years. Every time there's a new amendment to the RTA, landlords get more responsibilities while tenants get more rights, very unbalanced at this stage. Easy to see why landlords are selling up or doing whatever they need to do before their area becomes an RPZ and ties the rent at below market rate. A €600 monthly increase is a huge jump though, tough for any tenant.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,963 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    The government and society have created a situation where LL's are exiting the business. Property tax is not allowed as an expense. Standard business expenses are not allowed as straight forward expenses. If you carry out house improvement/repairs( where like for like may not be possible) some or all of these expenses may not be allowed against tax.

    To add insult to injury rental income is considered unearned so PRSI is not allowed to create OAP entitlement. You have the situation at present it may be appropriate to divest property that was lived in for a few years as capital gains are averaged over the term of ownership.

    Expenses are very hard to offset against rental income because of regulations. We even had the crazy situation for about 10 years where only 80% of interest was allowed against income. Neither can you claim pre rental expense allowed against rental income.

    Regulations have created a situation where if you are in an RPZ and have a seriously under market rent you are better off exiting the market. If you are not in in an RPZ you are crazy not to rise these to the maximum market rate.

    In most business sectors there is divestment allowances if you are exiting the business. In small business there is a 750k allowance against capital gain on disposal of a farm or business reduced to 500k if over 65. None of these are allowed for LL's or even any similar allowances.

    Slava Ukrainii



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