The NMH at St. Vincents

One eyed Jack

volchitsa wrote: »

What's that got to do with the question here? You made a false claim on this thread about the HIQA report, and fwiw I didn't bring up the subject in the first place, so if anyone has a grievance it's certainly not me.

Now you also feel entitled to impugn other posters' motives, so I think the least you can do is be rather more upfront yourself. Did you get that wrong, accidentally, several times, or are you winding people up by posting falsehoods about what is a very serious subject, a young woman's death?

Give it a rest, your insincerity is showing.

volchitsa

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Give it a rest, your insincerity is showing.

Wait, you posted falsehoods, then first tried to defend them before attempting a outright deflection onto a completely different subject - and I'm the one that's insincere?

I think there's a word for that!

Mr.Wemmick

One eyed Jack wrote: »

At least pilly had the balls to come out and say it directly, even if she is wrong. You may want to look up the definition of passive aggressive.

Didn't quote you, too busy laughing and typing.

Of course it's you.. had a run in with you doing the same thing in another thread and told you so numerous times. And again you've been whinging about posters through out this thread. What's the point? Come out and say what you mean.. or not at all. You disrespect posters all the time.





.

looksee

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The State outsourced the provision of education, welfare and healthcare services to religious orders in the first place because it couldn't afford it. The State also tied themselves up in Constitutional knots because they now simply can't do what you're suggesting without an amendment to the Constitution, and that would require a referendum, which there is no demand for, in spite of the way you'd be forgiven for thinking otherwise from reading Boards...

and the Irish Times.

No they did not. Do some research.

eviltwin

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I'd have been all for that eviltwin, but I understand too from a practical point of view why the location was chosen (even though the property does belong to the SOC and there's fannyadams the State can do about that). There are many other reasons why the agreement was made with the SVHG and there wasn't a separate hospital built somewhere else that wouldn't have had any appearance of interference from the religious orders.

That's why I said from the very beginning of this thread that the State tied itself up in constitutional knots with the RCC who were only too happy to go along with it at the time. As Walter observed earlier, about the only thing we manage to get right in this country is apathy and self-interest. We were just as good at it before the foundation of the State too, so it's really no wonder the state in which we find ourselves.

I still value secularism, but the elimination of religion from society, isn't secularism.

This thread isn't about removing religion from society, it's about removing it from a public service that everyone uses.

Practice your faith all you want but do it in the privacy of your home and church. And that goes for all religion before I'm accused of being anti Catholic. I don't expect people to give up their faith, I do expect my hospitals to be free of religious influence and I expect my government to have the balls to insist that any new hospital build is completely secular.

One eyed Jack

looksee wrote: »

No they did not. Do some research.

I've done my research, and plenty of it, but it shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone that we would come to different conclusions on the issue.

Mr.Wemmick

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I've done my research, and plenty of it, but it shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone that we would come to different conclusions on the issue.

Then why on earth do you consistently disrespect posters who come to a different conclusion than you?

One eyed Jack

eviltwin wrote: »

This thread isn't about removing religion from society, it's about removing it from a public service that everyone uses.

Practice your faith all you want but do it in the privacy of your home and church. And that goes for all religion before I'm accused of being anti Catholic. I don't expect people to give up their faith, I do expect my hospitals to be free of religious influence and I expect my government to have the balls to insist that any new hospital build is completely secular.

I wouldn't accuse you of being anti-Catholic at all, I just don't see why anyone should cowtow to demands that they practice their faith in private. There are fundamental rights written into the Constitution that protect those freedoms. I wouldn't expect anyone to cowtow to religion, why would they expect anyone who is religious should do the same for them?

If you want hospitals and schools free from religious influence, then by all means elect competent politicians, and not protest penguins. Meanwhile other people are just as entitled to elect politicians whom they believe will serve their interests (we're fond of our political dynasties in Ireland), as is the way it should be in a democracy.

One eyed Jack

Mr.Wemmick wrote: »

Then why on earth do you consistently disrespect posters who come to a different conclusion than you?

I don't disrespect anyone who comes to a different conclusion than me about anything. I'd never be so childish. Are you still laughing now?

infogiver

pilly wrote: »

There's a reason it's a theme though.

The Easter ceremonies in our church were better attended this year then the last few years.
We have a new Archbishop and he's introduced several innovations which seem to be bringing people back including a Parish Council and a general clear out of all the old "cliques".
All the 6 schools in the area were involved to some extent in the services.
The children's (both primary and post primary) involvement was entirely voluntary and was an extra curricular activity and was over subscribed in each school.
Under this new Archbishop lay people will have much more influence and power then was the norm here before.
It's unfair and untrue and unjustified to describe all these people as a "bunch of rapists" as zebra3 does but if it makes him or her feel better about themselves to rant like that then ,what harm?
If you want to convince yourself that people volunteering to take part in the running of the parish, giving up hours and hours of their spare time to sit on committees and pore over accounts etc , are all doing it to stay on the right side of "granny", or if you think that you could persuade a teenager to volunteer to participate in something they don't like, then you don't own a teenager, simple as that.
Over on A&A I read page after page of a thread trying to explain away the fact that the hugest amount of people in this country ticked the Catholic box on the census.
From what I can gather, wishful thinking amongst secularists is that more than 3/4 of the country, people of all ages levels of education and profession had their census filled in by their elderly mother!
Is that it?
If you try to tell people that the Sisters of Charity will have the same relationship with this maternity hospital as they have with St Vincent's Hospital or any of its other health care facilities or Focus Ireland and that those facilities are not over run with Bible quoting rosary toting nuns, they seem to stick their fingers in their ears and stamp their feet and I don't really understand why?

Mr.Wemmick

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I don't disrespect anyone who comes to a different conclusion than me about anything. I'd never be so childish. Are you still laughing now?

Now that is funny.

Maybe you should read over your posts in this thread.

On this page alone you refer disrespectfully to one poster as being insincere.

Graces7

infogiver wrote: »

The Easter ceremonies in our church were better attended this year then the last few years.
We have a new Archbishop and he's introduced several innovations which seem to be bringing people back including a Parish Council and a general clear out of all the old "cliques".
All the 6 schools in the area were involved to some extent in the services.
The children's (both primary and post primary) involvement was entirely voluntary and was an extra curricular activity and was over subscribed in each school.
Under this new Archbishop lay people will have much more influence and power then was the norm here before.
It's unfair and untrue and unjustified to describe all these people as a "bunch of rapists" as zebra3 does but if it makes him or her feel better about themselves to rant like that then ,what harm?
If you want to convince yourself that people volunteering to take part in the running of the parish, giving up hours and hours of their spare time to sit on committees and pore over accounts etc , are all doing it to stay on the right side of "granny", or if you think that you could persuade a teenager to volunteer to participate in something they don't like, then you don't own a teenager, simple as that.
Over on A&A I read page after page of a thread trying to explain away the fact that the hugest amount of people in this country ticked the Catholic box on the census.
From what I can gather, wishful thinking amongst secularists is that more than 3/4 of the country, people of all ages levels of education and profession had their census filled in by their elderly mother!
Is that it?
If you try to tell people that the Sisters of Charity will have the same relationship with this maternity hospital as they have with St Vincent's Hospital or any of its other health care facilities or Focus Ireland and that those facilities are not over run with Bible quoting rosary toting nuns, they seem to stick their fingers in their ears and stamp their feet and I don't really understand why?

I do not believe your last words, and your post makes me sadder than any other post here. Have read it several times and just sad and so blinkered.
Blind to the past? So many died and suffered .. so very many. Easter ceremonies are meaningless in this context. An empty vessel.

infogiver

Graces7 wrote: »

[/B]

I do not believe your last words, and your post makes me sadder than any other post here. Have read it several times and just sad and so blinkered.
Blind to the past? So many died and suffered .. so very many. Easter ceremonies are meaningless in this context. An empty vessel.

Why would my post make you sad? Can you explain how my description of people participating in their chosen religion impacts you in such a way that you feel "sad"?
Can you explain how you feel I am "blinkered " ? I am fully cognisant of all the evil people that perpetrated many evil deeds in the Catholic Church but that doesn't change my belief in Jesus , why would you think it would?
Are you calling me an empty vessel? Why? You don't know me or anything about me?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Graces7 wrote: »

[/B]

I do not believe your last words, and your post makes me sadder than any other post here. Have read it several times and just sad and so blinkered.
Blind to the past? So many died and suffered .. so very many. Easter ceremonies are meaningless in this context. An empty vessel.

And that should stop us trying to maintain our faith in our God? Easter is the most important season for we believers. The ceremonies bring Jesus to our lives. Meaningless? Not to the hundreds that packed our church and the many people who are revitalised and working to rebuild our Christian community.
Your linking our faith in God to the dreadful behaviour of the past confuses me.

infogiver

Mira Ambitious Balloonist wrote: »

And that should stop us trying to maintain our faith in our God? Easter is the most important season for we believers. The ceremonies bring Jesus to our lives. Meaningless? Not to the hundreds that packed our church and the many people who are revitalised and working to rebuild our Christian community.
Your linking our faith in God to the dreadful behaviour of the past confuses me.

Lots of things I see people doing make me feel "sad" but I don't think people should stop doing those things because of my "feelings", and I certainly don't think those who have a different opinion to me are "blinkered" just because I don't agree with them.
It's just Boards i suppose.

eviltwin

Mira Ambitious Balloonist wrote: »

And that should stop us trying to maintain our faith in our God? Easter is the most important season for we believers. The ceremonies bring Jesus to our lives. Meaningless? Not to the hundreds that packed our church and the many people who are revitalised and working to rebuild our Christian community.
Your linking our faith in God to the dreadful behaviour of the past confuses me.

What has any of that got to do with patronage of the new hospital ? I wouldn't assume every practicing Catholic wants their religion to be a factor in their healthcare.

infogiver

eviltwin wrote: »

What has any of that got to do with patronage of the new hospital ? I wouldn't assume every practicing Catholic wants their religion to be a factor in their healthcare.

It's my fault. Zebra3 described me as a rapist and I went off at an angle.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

eviltwin wrote: »

What has any of that got to do with patronage of the new hospital ? I wouldn't assume every practicing Catholic wants their religion to be a factor in their healthcare.

It has nothing to do with it but was in reply to an attempt to drag up past hurts and demean those with a faith, without reference to the topic. I would keep religion completely out of hospitals myself.

pilly

infogiver wrote:

The Easter ceremonies in our church were better attended this year then the last few years. We have a new Archbishop and he's introduced several innovations which seem to be bringing people back including a Parish Council and a general clear out of all the old "cliques". All the 6 schools in the area were involved to some extent in the services. The children's (both primary and post primary) involvement was entirely voluntary and was an extra curricular activity and was over subscribed in each school. Under this new Archbishop lay people will have much more influence and power then was the norm here before. It's unfair and untrue and unjustified to describe all these people as a "bunch of rapists" as zebra3 does but if it makes him or her feel better about themselves to rant like that then ,what harm? If you want to convince yourself that people volunteering to take part in the running of the parish, giving up hours and hours of their spare time to sit on committees and pore over accounts etc , are all doing it to stay on the right side of "granny", or if you think that you could persuade a teenager to volunteer to participate in something they don't like, then you don't own a teenager, simple as that. Over on A&A I read page after page of a thread trying to explain away the fact that the hugest amount of people in this country ticked the Catholic box on the census. From what I can gather, wishful thinking amongst secularists is that more than 3/4 of the country, people of all ages levels of education and profession had their census filled in by their elderly mother! Is that it? If you try to tell people that the Sisters of Charity will have the same relationship with this maternity hospital as they have with St Vincent's Hospital or any of its other health care facilities or Focus Ireland and that those facilities are not over run with Bible quoting rosary toting nuns, they seem to stick their fingers in their ears and stamp their feet and I don't really understand why?

Wow! All of that in reply to a one line post? Really?

infogiver

pilly wrote: »

Wow! All of that in reply to a one line post? Really?

Hi pilly. There aren't any rules here about a maximum amount of words you can use when in replying to a post.
You seem to be somewhat "shocked" ("Wow! Really!") about that.
I suppose if you think that there should be some kind of rules about how long or short posts should be you could raise your concern in the Feedback forum?

whisky_galore

gctest50 wrote: »

.



https://my.uplift.ie/petitions/block-sisters-of-chairty-as-sole-owners-of-national-maternity-hospital?bucket


Petition to block takeover

How is an online petition supposed to block anything?

infogiver

whisky_galore wrote: »

How is an online petition supposed to block anything?

Online petitions are the modern lazy equivalent of writing a "strongly worded letter" of the type people used to send to Radio Eireann to complain about Gay Byrne allowing Nell McCafferty or somesuch on to "blaspheme" on his daily show.
If you check out the website change.org it is a veritable graveyard for petitions that got a good start but died of starvation not long afterwards.

Graces7

infogiver wrote: »

Why would my post make you sad? Can you explain how my description of people participating in their chosen religion impacts you in such a way that you feel "sad"?
Can you explain how you feel I am "blinkered " ? I am fully cognisant of all the evil people that perpetrated many evil deeds in the Catholic Church but that doesn't change my belief in Jesus , why would you think it would?
Are you calling me an empty vessel? Why? You don't know me or anything about me?

My belief in the Lord Jesus is my life. Lived every day every hour in all my life as it has been all my life.

The Catholic Church stopped being the "church Jesus founded" many many centuries ago. When it became a political entity seeking power and money etc.

Jesus speaks very tellingly of this when He talks of the Scribes and Pharisees of His day.

Nor does the terrible evil done by the Church change my belief but! To carry on as if these things did not happen. The sheer uncaring and lack of penitence.

Names that carry shame; Letterfrack, Tuam, Bessborough, Sean Ross Abbey. Glossed over.

Carrying on as if nothing had been wrong.

As this event clearly shows. No shame, just more of the same, power seeking.

It was not simply evil people but the whole institution. Century after century. Not simply a few evil people but the entire policy and praxis.

Easter is a hollow sham in the way it is done now. We are a resurrection people if we really love Jesus, not just a flowery set of rituals once a year. Full churches are not an indication of deep true faith but a social event.

. Money that could feed and house needy folk thrown away on pretty fripperies.

Claiming it is for the Glory of God. NOT!

Living His love daily. Hourly.

Living His victory in our obedience to His Word, not blindly following a set of man made rules.

Graces7

infogiver wrote: »

Online petitions are the modern lazy equivalent of writing a "strongly worded letter" of the type people used to send to Radio Eireann to complain about Gay Byrne allowing Nell McCafferty or somesuch on to "blaspheme" on his daily show.
If you check out the website change.org it is a veritable graveyard for petitions that got a good start but died of starvation not long afterwards.

Well yes you would say that!

Feeling is running very high about this madness. Gives me more hope for Ireland than anything else.

Applauding the petition here and also all who vote with their feet and wallets .

Lazy? Nah! Lazy is different altogether...

Graces7

eviltwin wrote: »

What has any of that got to do with patronage of the new hospital ? I wouldn't assume every practicing Catholic wants their religion to be a factor in their healthcare.

Sweet heaven forbid! What a dreadful thought... Our faith will shine in how we endure pain and illness.

Widdershins

Graces7 wrote: »

My belief in the Lord Jesus is my life. Lived every day every hour in all my life as it has been all my life.

The Catholic Church stopped being the "church Jesus founded" many many centuries ago. When it became a political entity seeking power and money etc.

Jesus speaks very tellingly of this when He talks of the Scribes and Pharisees of His day.

Nor does the terrible evil done by the Church change my belief but! To carry on as if these things did not happen. The sheer uncaring and lack of penitence.

Names that carry shame; Letterfrack, Tuam, Bessborough, Sean Ross Abbey. Glossed over.

Carrying on as if nothing had been wrong.

As this event clearly shows. No shame, just more of the same, power seeking.

It was not simply evil people but the whole institution. Century after century. Not simply a few evil people but the entire policy and praxis.

Easter is a hollow sham in the way it is done now. We are a resurrection people if we really love Jesus, not just a flowery set of rituals once a year.
. Money that could feed and house needy folk thrown away on pretty fripperies.

Claiming it is for the Glory of God. NOT!

Living His love daily. Hourly.

Living His victory in our obedience to His Word, not blindly following a set of man made rules.

What fripperies? You sound very anti catholic in that comment. Catholics have long believed in decorating their place of worship, which you seem to have a great disdain for. As for violence connected to religion, you could pin that on any of the world religions. Life doesn't stop because of Letterfrack or Bessborough. They were national scandals, intensely covered by the media, reparations were made in many cases, but naturally people will carry on in their way of life and faith, to not do so would not help any victims in any way. Families participating in their own preferred way in Easter is nothing to be sneered at.

Graces7

Widdershins wrote: »

What fripperies? You sound very anti catholic in that comment. Catholics have long believed in decorating their place of worship, which you seem to have a great disdain for. As for violence connected to religion, you could pin that on any of the world religions. Life doesn't stop because of Letterfrack or Bessborough. They were national scandals, intensely covered by the media, reparations were made in many cases, but naturally people will carry on in their way of life and faith, to not do so would not help any victims in any way. Families participating in their own preferred way in Easter is nothing to be sneered at.

Oh dear! Supports my point fully so thank you.

I am not sneering; far from it. But there we are. There are ways to live the life Jesus asks of us in simpler ways.

Just because something has always been done does not make it right. We are seeing a huge rise in poverty here; would far rather see food for the needy than costly flowers in a church. Very costly flowers.... far more of Jesus to obey. His teachings.

Life did end for very many. Period.
Prematurely and painfully. At the hands of those who above all should have known better, who set out to be the moral examples and dictators

"lest we forget.." And it may prevent future victims.

Commemorating the Easter Rising is one thing; no elegy for the ones who dies at the hands of the church.

Deeply thankful so many are outraged at this event.Gives hope for humanity

It really does!

Tuam was one step too far then. this is even more so. Of the world,worldly.

Takes the breath away. Maternity hospital in their hands? A sick joke.

Widdershins

Graces7 wrote: »

Oh dear! Supports my point fully so thank you.

I am not sneering; far from it. But there we are. There are ways to live the life Jesus asks of us in simpler ways.

Just because something has always been done does not make it right. We are seeing a huge rise in poverty here; would far rather see food for the needy than costly flowers in a church. Very costly flowers.... far more of Jesus to obey. His teachings.

Life did end for very many. Period.
Prematurely and painfully. At the hands of those who above all should have known better, who set out to be the moral examples and dictators

"lest we forget.." And it may prevent future victims.

Commemorating the Easter Rising is one thing; no elegy for the ones who dies at the hands of the church.

Deeply thankful so many are outraged at this event.Gives hope for humanity

It really does!

Tuam was one step too far then. this is even more so. Of the world,worldly.

Takes the breath away. Maternity hospital in their hands? A sick joke.

Calm down. You're not making much sense. You've just admitted many were outraged. You're not content that people aren't in a perpetual state of outrage. Leave Catholics alone to worship in their way. A few bunches of flowers for decoration is not profligate . People are not morally obliged to live like ascetics, it is up to the individual how and when they wish to contribute to charity, as many Catholics often do. Your preaching is worse than anything I've ever heard from a Catholic.

I had similar views when I first learned about the maternity hospital but it was pointed out that a couple of other hospitals in Dublin are managed by a religious order, so it might not be quite the cataclysmic event you're making it out to be.

Graces7

Widdershins wrote: »

Calm down. You're not making much sense. You've just admitted many were outraged. You're not content that people aren't in a perpetual state of outrage. Leave Catholics alone to worship in their way. A few bunches of flowers for decoration is not profligate . People are not morally obliged to live like ascetics, it is up to the individual how and when they wish to contribute to charity, as many Catholics often do. Your preaching is worse than anything I've ever heard from a Catholic.

I had similar views when I first learned about the maternity hospital but it was pointed out that a couple of other hospitals in Dublin are managed by a religious order, so it might not be quite the cataclysmic event you're making it out to be.

No;many are horrified that an organisation that committed such offences and owes millions in reparation is being trusted and honoured again ie that we have learned nothing. So the future is tainted yet again.

Ah thank you! Kind soul indeed. I do not preach by the way. Your words are so very revealing and that is fine too.

It is as we thought it was. No awareness of the actual teachings of the Lord Jesus only of the church. Its ideas, its rules, its excuses.

Interesting

Over and out from me on this. I have learned so very much and thank you for that. I mean that.

Someone started a group once. "Jesus is not religion." I did not fully understand that then. Reading this thread I do now.

Praying for thee... Bless you!

Widdershins

Graces7 wrote: »

No;many are horrified that an organisation that committed such offences and owes millions in reparation is being trusted and honoured again ie that we have learned nothing. So the future is tainted yet again.

Ah thank you! Kind soul indeed. I do not preach by the way. Your words are so very revealing and that is fine too.

It is as we thought it was. No awareness of the actual teachings of the Lord Jesus only of the church. Its ideas, its rules, its excuses.

Interesting

Over and out from me on this. I have learned so very much and thank you for that. I mean that.

Someone started a group once. "Jesus is not religion." I did not fully understand that then. Reading this thread I do now.

Praying for thee... Bless you!

I had a feeling you were.

gitzy16v

Graces7 wrote: »

Oh dear! Supports my point fully so thank you.

I am not sneering; far from it. But there we are. There are ways to live the life Jesus asks of us in simpler ways.

Just because something has always been done does not make it right. We are seeing a huge rise in poverty here; would far rather see food for the needy than costly flowers in a church. Very costly flowers.... far more of Jesus to obey. His teachings.

Life did end for very many. Period.
Prematurely and painfully. At the hands of those who above all should have known better, who set out to be the moral examples and dictators

"lest we forget.." And it may prevent future victims.

Commemorating the Easter Rising is one thing; no elegy for the ones who dies at the hands of the church.

Deeply thankful so many are outraged at this event.Gives hope for humanity

It really does!

Tuam was one step too far then. this is even more so. Of the world,worldly.

Takes the breath away. Maternity hospital in their hands? A sick joke.

You start of saying not Catholic enough then give out bout the nuns running maternity hospital...they won't be doing 70's procedures or before in there...I'm sure anywhere that the church is involved in is watched closely by not just authority but by the public We all know how they carry on...
My sons are in a Catholic school,I couldn't care less,I tell him don't be relying on God,Jesus and prayers to help you,do it yourself.
!!!They are 7 and 4 years old!!!
God is already in their heads,not happy about that but it's harmless if my boys kno it's far from worth relying on.
BUT....I think we weeded out most or all of the bad of the church in the last 20 yrs or more and What's left is nice peaceful and harmless because Irish people are well wide to the church now they'd get away with nothing

gitzy16v

Graces7 wrote: »

No;many are horrified that an organisation that committed such offences and owes millions in reparation is being trusted and honoured again ie that we have learned nothing. So the future is tainted yet again.

Ah thank you! Kind soul indeed. I do not preach by the way. Your words are so very revealing and that is fine too.

It is as we thought it was. No awareness of the actual teachings of the Lord Jesus only of the church. Its ideas, its rules, its excuses.

Interesting

Over and out from me on this. I have learned so very much and thank you for that. I mean that.

Someone started a group once. "Jesus is not religion." I did not fully understand that then. Reading this thread I do now.

Praying for thee... Bless you!

Are you a priest?

Graces7

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/magdalene-survivors-shocked-and-angered-after-government-grants-national-maternity-hospital-to-religious-order-786449.html

YOU GO LADIES! Wish I could join you. With you in heart and love..

Widdershins

gitzy16v wrote: »

Are you a priest?

Born Again, maybe.

gitzy16v

Graces7 wrote: »

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/magdalene-survivors-shocked-and-angered-after-government-grants-national-maternity-hospital-to-religious-order-786449.html

YOU GO LADIES! Wish I could join you. With you in heart and love..

What do you think might happen in this new hospital?

Do you not think,from previous evidence,that the nuns who will run this hospital,will be watched closer than the majority of other maternity hospitals?
Therefore producing a much higher standard....church was never all bad,plenty of good church run schools and hospitals.

Woodville56

It's been clarified over and over that the Sisters of Charity won't be running this new hospital yet the circle jerk of abuse and vilification of all things Catholic and religious continues unabated here - any excuse for an anti catholic rant.
I agree that the religious orders should withdraw from public service commitments such as education, healthcare etc and let the state provide and run our hospitals and schools . The Sisters of Charity should withdraw their offer of a site at St Vincent's now and let the state i.e. the taxpayer and those busy signing anti Sisters of Charity petitions go fund a site on the open market in Dublin

andekwarhola

Part of the problem is that Irish people violently react to the concept of taxes (and whatever taxes are taken end up down rat holes like union protected behemoths like transport and health sectors) which has played into the hands of religious orders because governments go running to them to outsource the cost of schools and hospitals.

listermint

Woodville56 wrote: »

It's been clarified over and over that the Sisters of Charity won't be running this new hospital yet the circle jerk of abuse and vilification of all things Catholic and religious continues unabated here - any excuse for an anti catholic rant.
I agree that the religious orders should withdraw from public service commitments such as education, healthcare etc and let the state provide and run our hospitals and schools . The Sisters of Charity should withdraw their offer of a site at St Vincent's now and let the state i.e. the taxpayer and those busy signing anti Sisters of Charity petitions go fund a site on the open market in Dublin

Who cares if they run it or not, they own it. My tax money and everyone else was literally just gifted to a wealthy organisation that owes the state millions.

If it were any other organisation that got gifted this I'd say you would be up on arms.

But instead you like to chip it off your shoulder as anti Catholic.

I'm anti giving away my money , it's state infrastructure and shouldn't be handed over. Just like the m50 we payed some private company for forty times over.


Ridiculous stuff

infogiver

Graces7 wrote: »

My belief in the Lord Jesus is my life. Lived every day every hour in all my life as it has been all my life.

The Catholic Church stopped being the "church Jesus founded" many many centuries ago. When it became a political entity seeking power and money etc.

Jesus speaks very tellingly of this when He talks of the Scribes and Pharisees of His day.

Nor does the terrible evil done by the Church change my belief but! To carry on as if these things did not happen. The sheer uncaring and lack of penitence.

Names that carry shame; Letterfrack, Tuam, Bessborough, Sean Ross Abbey. Glossed over.

Carrying on as if nothing had been wrong.

As this event clearly shows. No shame, just more of the same, power seeking.

It was not simply evil people but the whole institution. Century after century. Not simply a few evil people but the entire policy and praxis.

Easter is a hollow sham in the way it is done now. We are a resurrection people if we really love Jesus, not just a flowery set of rituals once a year. Full churches are not an indication of deep true faith but a social event.

. Money that could feed and house needy folk thrown away on pretty fripperies.

Claiming it is for the Glory of God. NOT!

Living His love daily. Hourly.

Living His victory in our obedience to His Word, not blindly following a set of man made rules.

This is your belief Graces.
Your entitled to your belief.
I'm entitled to mine.
Your belief doesn't make me feel "sad" and even if it did, I'm afraid my "feelings" about your beliefs are irrelevant. Your beliefs are not impacting on my life, my beliefs are not impacting on your life, so if you are "sad", then I wish you peace and happiness but it's not my concern and you need to deal with your sadness in a way that doesn't involve telling me that I'm "wrong" or that I should keep my beliefs to myself.
I will celebrate Easter as I wish, and you should do the same.
We are lucky that we live in a democracy where this is allowed.
Seasons greetings to you.

Woodville56

listermint wrote: »

Woodville56 wrote: »

It's been clarified over and over that the Sisters of Charity won't be running this new hospital yet the circle jerk of abuse and vilification of all things Catholic and religious continues unabated here - any excuse for an anti catholic rant.
I agree that the religious orders should withdraw from public service commitments such as education, healthcare etc and let the state provide and run our hospitals and schools . The Sisters of Charity should withdraw their offer of a site at St Vincent's now and let the state i.e. the taxpayer and those busy signing anti Sisters of Charity petitions go fund a site on the open market in Dublin

Who cares if they run it or not, they own it. My tax money and everyone else was literally just gifted to a wealthy organisation that owes the state millions.

If it were any other organisation that got gifted this I'd say you would be up on arms.

But instead you like to chip it off your shoulder as anti Catholic.

I'm anti giving away my money , it's state infrastructure and shouldn't be handed over. Just like the m50 we payed some private company for forty times over.


Ridiculous stuff

So in essence, you have an objection in principal to the state taking any site donation from a religious body irrespective of the purpose or assurances of non intervention ? There's an awful lot of state infrastructure built on lands owned originally by religious communities etc - that a problem for you too ? Need more sack cloth and ashes stuff from the religious groups to atone for their past misdeeds ? I'm all for the state i.e. the taxpayer providing its own healthcare and education facilities etc so let them at it. I also agree that the religious communities involved in the reparation payments should pay over the agreed settlement and leave it at that. If those who would like the state to buy out all the religious donated properties on which schools, hospitals, community and resource centers etc were built to assuage their high moral ground principals and anti church /anti religious sentiments then let's do the sums and see how the balance sheet looks . The church and religious orders need to refocus their efforts towards their true charism for those who have faith and let the state look after its sick and young. Let's have our secular state - the nirvana so many here seem to be so excited about !

volchitsa

Woodville56 wrote: »

So in essence, you have an objection in principal to the state taking any site donation from a religious body irrespective of the purpose or assurances of non intervention ? There's an awful lot of state infrastructure built on lands owned originally by religious communities etc - that a problem for you too ? Need more sack cloth and ashes stuff from the religious groups to atone for their past misdeeds ? I'm all for the state i.e. the taxpayer providing its own healthcare and education facilities etc so let them at it. I also agree that the religious communities involved in the reparation payments should pay over the agreed settlement and leave it at that. If those who would like the state to buy out all the religious donated properties on which schools, hospitals, community and resource centers etc were built to assuage their high moral ground principals and anti church /anti religious sentiments then let's do the sums and see how the balance sheet looks . The church and religious orders need to refocus their efforts towards their true charism for those who have faith and let the state look after its sick and young. Let's have our secular state - the nirvana so many here seem to be so excited about !

Hilarious that people still try to make out the church and the orders aren't just in it for the money! They won't want to "refocus their charism" towards true believers unless those true believers have enough ready cash to make up for losing the nice little earners that are our schools and hospitals.

Especially when the state pays to build them before then handing ownership over to the orders.

BlinkingLights

That's it. I'm refusing to vote FG or FF again.

We need a major centre for the treatment of Stockholm Syndrome.

Samaris

Widdershins wrote: »

Calm down. You're not making much sense. You've just admitted many were outraged. You're not content that people aren't in a perpetual state of outrage. Leave Catholics alone to worship in their way. A few bunches of flowers for decoration is not profligate . People are not morally obliged to live like ascetics, it is up to the individual how and when they wish to contribute to charity, as many Catholics often do. Your preaching is worse than anything I've ever heard from a Catholic.

I had similar views when I first learned about the maternity hospital but it was pointed out that a couple of other hospitals in Dublin are managed by a religious order, so it might not be quite the cataclysmic event you're making it out to be.

Well. Actually, under the teachings of the Catholic Church, they -are- required to live ascetic lives and give their money and time to help the poor and hungry. It's a pretty central tenet of the Catholic religion and Christianity in general. The Church hasn't been doing that very faithfully in a long time. Bits of it work for it, but the Vatican has amassed a staggering amount of wealth and property which would, following the teachings of Christ, be better served being sold to benefit the poor rather than hoarded.

That's one of the things that annoy so many ex-Catholics. The Church, the central structure of "our" religion is subsumed by "Do as I say, not as I do". The whole moral authority rather falls over at that point and that's even before the Church covered up the most horrific abuse against vulnerable people, the poor Christ protected and against children, the most valued of souls in Christian mythology.

Matthew 25:40 - And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’

If Catholics are okay with the breaking of their own religion's central tenets and the protection afforded to those who broke these rules and the harm that was done, well, that's their own problem. But the State should not be rewarding one of these orders with another place in which to exercise moral authority over vulnerable people, even in part. The hospital, even if it cost more for it, should have been built elsewhere and remained a State-owned institution.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Graces7 wrote: »

Oh dear! Supports my point fully so thank you.

I am not sneering; far from it. But there we are. There are ways to live the life Jesus asks of us in simpler ways.

Just because something has always been done does not make it right. We are seeing a huge rise in poverty here; would far rather see food for the needy than costly flowers in a church. Very costly flowers.... far more of Jesus to obey. His teachings.

Life did end for very many. Period.
Prematurely and painfully. At the hands of those who above all should have known better, who set out to be the moral examples and dictators

"lest we forget.." And it may prevent future victims.

Commemorating the Easter Rising is one thing; no elegy for the ones who dies at the hands of the church.

Deeply thankful so many are outraged at this event.Gives hope for humanity

It really does!

Tuam was one step too far then. this is even more so. Of the world,worldly.

Takes the breath away. Maternity hospital in their hands? A sick joke.

Is there any chance this could be rewritten to make sense?

Bottom line really is, what has this to do with patronage of the hospital going forward?

Woodville56

volchitsa wrote: »

Woodville56 wrote: »

So in essence, you have an objection in principal to the state taking any site donation from a religious body irrespective of the purpose or assurances of non intervention ? There's an awful lot of state infrastructure built on lands owned originally by religious communities etc - that a problem for you too ? Need more sack cloth and ashes stuff from the religious groups to atone for their past misdeeds ? I'm all for the state i.e. the taxpayer providing its own healthcare and education facilities etc so let them at it. I also agree that the religious communities involved in the reparation payments should pay over the agreed settlement and leave it at that. If those who would like the state to buy out all the religious donated properties on which schools, hospitals, community and resource centers etc were built to assuage their high moral ground principals and anti church /anti religious sentiments then let's do the sums and see how the balance sheet looks . The church and religious orders need to refocus their efforts towards their true charism for those who have faith and let the state look after its sick and young. Let's have our secular state - the nirvana so many here seem to be so excited about !

Hilarious that people still try to make out the church and the orders aren't just in it for the money! They won't want to "refocus their charism" towards true believers unless those true believers have enough ready cash to make up for losing the nice little earners that are our schools and hospitals.

Especially when the state pays to build them before then handing ownership over to the orders.

So all the church / religious donated properties are motivated as a source of income for the church yeah ? Like the church land in our parish given over for a social services centre, or land in a nearby town offered for a traveller halting site - real money spinners there !

volchitsa

Woodville56 wrote: »

So all the church / religious donated properties are motivated as a source of income for the church yeah ? Like the church land in our parish given over for a social services centre, or land in a nearby town offered for a traveller halting site - real money spinners there !

Because Travellers don't give money to the church, right? :rolleyes:

And I don't know the details of your other specific example, but going by the ones I do know, they always end up making money out of these actions. Always.

The new hospital being the latest example : the Sisters of Charity "gave" the land to the state, which built a state of the art hospital on it, at tax payers' expense, and now the SoC end up as sole owners.

Well, if you want to come to my house, I "give" you a big piece of my garden for you to build me a fabulous extension to my house, of which I'll then be the sole owner.

Very kind of me to give you such a present, I'm sure you'll agree.

Widdershins

Samaris wrote: »

Well. Actually, under the teachings of the Catholic Church, they -are- required to live ascetic lives and give their money and time to help the poor and hungry. It's a pretty central tenet of the Catholic religion and Christianity in general. The Church hasn't been doing that very faithfully in a long time. Bits of it work for it, but the Vatican has amassed a staggering amount of wealth and property which would, following the teachings of Christ, be better served being sold to benefit the poor rather than hoarded.

I'm not Catholic but its the first I've heard that Catholics are instructed to live ascetic lives. But this is about the decoration of the local churches at Easter time. With bunches of flowers. It's not about the wealth of the Vatican. That wasn't Graces7's complaint. Can you direct me to where it tells them to, please? And I didn't say they aren't supposed to ''give their money and time to help the poor and hungry''. I said many Catholics do. There is a difference between contributing to charity and dedicating your life to their poor and needy, which seems to be what is be being implied now.
Why should it annoy ex Catholics that ordinary Catholics live like ordinary people in 2017 and not like a religious order? I find that notion perverse.


You've heard of the expression ''Holier than thou''?

Absolam

volchitsa wrote: »

Hilarious that people still try to make out the church and the orders aren't just in it for the money! They won't want to "refocus their charism" towards true believers unless those true believers have enough ready cash to make up for losing the nice little earners that are our schools and hospitals.

Especially when the state pays to build them before then handing ownership over to the orders.

How much money do you imagine they're going to make out of this particular event? Just so we can gauge your assertion that they're just in it for the money, you understand.....

Widdershins

Woodville56 wrote: »

So in essence, you have an objection in principal to the state taking any site donation from a religious body irrespective of the purpose or assurances of non intervention ? There's an awful lot of state infrastructure built on lands owned originally by religious communities etc - that a problem for you too ? Need more sack cloth and ashes stuff from the religious groups to atone for their past misdeeds ? I'm all for the state i.e. the taxpayer providing its own healthcare and education facilities etc so let them at it. I also agree that the religious communities involved in the reparation payments should pay over the agreed settlement and leave it at that. If those who would like the state to buy out all the religious donated properties on which schools, hospitals, community and resource centers etc were built to assuage their high moral ground principals and anti church /anti religious sentiments then let's do the sums and see how the balance sheet looks . The church and religious orders need to refocus their efforts towards their true charism for those who have faith and let the state look after its sick and young. Let's have our secular state - the nirvana so many here seem to be so excited about !

Apparently some people like that sort of thing. shudder


Interesting points..I wonder if it would cost the taxpayer more for the state to run it.

One eyed Jack

Widdershins wrote: »

Apparently some people like that sort of thing. shudder


Interesting points..I wonder if it would cost the taxpayer more for the state to run it.

It would, just like all the calls for the State to "get religion out of schools and hospitals". In order to do that, they'd have to compensate the religious orders for their properties, which would come to quite a bit more than E300m. It would bankrupt the State and we'd all be back to eating meal so we could afford to pay our taxes. People shat themselves at austerity already, no way they'd want to go back to paying 60% tax on their incomes to fund State services such as education, healthcare and welfare, yet the Catholic Church was doing that 100 years before the foundation of the State.