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The NMH at St. Vincents

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  • 14-05-2022 4:39pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 7,384 ✭✭✭


    This saga has been rumbling on for quite some time so I'm a bit surprised that there's no thread on it.

    Anyway cabinet looks set to agree to the new proposal of a 300 year lease at a peppercorn rent, and for that 300 years will have full control of the hospital. Some people seemingly have a problem with that, and listening to the campaigners against it, their objections tend to amount to "nuns are bad", and "why can't they just give us the land". All clinically appropriate, legal procedures will be available at the hospital. CPO is not an option as that is only legal when no alternative exists, but this hospital is next to a golf club, close to public lands in RTE and the existence of the proposed lease means that it wouldn't survive a challenge.

    Having been in holles st recently, the whole place is so old that it's unfit for purpose and that any further delay to a new building will be a disaster.



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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 24,497 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    The mind boggles...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,570 ✭✭✭Ulysses Gaze


    mrsmags16 wrote: »

    This is laughable.

    The order have not even paid off the damages that they were supposed to and now they are being given the keys to the new maternity hospital?

    Hope Harris is held to account for this.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,626 ✭✭✭Glenster


    As long as it sh*ts out healthy babies and there's no proselytizing in the delivery rooms I don't care.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,751 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack




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  • Registered Users Posts: 33,571 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    What exactly do they get by 'owning' it?

    Will they pay the bills?
    Will they own the building?
    Will they profit from 'owning' the hospital?


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,928 ✭✭✭✭rainbow kirby


    So wrong on so many levels. The RCC in general, and nuns who were involved in the ill-treatment of the women and children of this country in particular, shouldn't be allowed within a million miles of the maternity services.

    Nothing positive for women can come from this.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,751 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    So wrong on so many levels. The RCC in general, and nuns who were involved in the ill-treatment of the women and children of this country in particular, shouldn't be allowed within a million miles of the maternity services.

    Nothing positive for women can come from this.


    Same rag (that seems to have quite a hard-on for it's anti-religious bigotry), different author -


    Merger of St Vincent’s and Holles Street units in best interests of women’s safety

    Michael Keane is clinical director of SVHG and Professor of Medicine at UCD


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭Chuchote


    I feel like emigrating to a civilised country.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3097186/Magdalene-laundry-survivor-reveals-s-haunted-fear-breaking-labour-loneliness-ordeal-60-years-later.html
    Campaigner Mary Merritt, 83, who was 'in the care' of the nuns for 14 years before escaping, spoke out in September, 2014, about her ordeal.
    She was born in 1931 to a single mother in a workhouse and went on to an orphanage, run by an order of nuns called the Sisters of Mercy where, she says, the children were made to work and were beaten if they refused.
    Mary, who now lives in Tunbridge Wells, said that at the age of 11, she was so hungry that she took apples from the convent orchard and as punishment was sent to work in a Magdalene laundry at High Park in Dublin run by another order, the Sisters of Our Lady of Charity.
    'They told me that I would stay in the laundry until I learned to stop stealing. Fourteen years they kept me there. You get less for murder these days.'
    Mary, whose story featured on Our World: Hidden Bodies, Hidden Secrets on the BBC News Channel in September, recalled how the women were made to rise at six o'clock for mass and then after breakfast went straight down to the laundry to start work.
    You can't underestimate the sense of the stigma and the sense of shame attached to having been in one of these laundries
    Maeve O'Rourke
    She said: 'The laundry was heavy, heavy work and the heat was terrible and you didn't break until 12 o'clock when you broke for your dinner, such as it was - potatoes and cabbage and fish - and then after you went straight back to the laundry again to work and you worked in the laundry until at six o'clock.
    Most shocking of all, Mary claims that after running away she was raped by a priest, but despite this terrible violation she was ignored by police and then shamed by the nuns.
    Mary said: 'When the police took me back to the laundry, they didn't believe I had been raped but shaved my head, made me apologise for running away and put me in the punishment cell.'
    But when Mary became pregnant as a result of the rape and gave birth to a daughter, in a stunning act of cruelty, the nuns took the baby against Mary's will and gave her away for adoption.

    http://www.thejournal.ie/magdalene-laundry-true-story-margaret-bullen-samantha-long-614350-Sep2012/
    At roughly the age of 16, Margaret was sent to the Magdalene Laundry at Gloucester Street. The exact time and circumstances of her move there are not clear because Samantha and her sister are still waiting on full records to be supplied to them on their mother’s past.
    She became pregnant – twice – with Samantha and her twin sister Etta, and later with another daughter, while officially under the care of the Gloucester Street nuns. The circumstances of these conceptions are again shrouded in mystery but Samantha says her conversations in later life with her mother when they were reunited led her to believe that Margaret had been the victim of sexual abuse and predators several times.
    There was no education, no education and I, you know, I honestly believe for a long time she didn’t know how she got pregnant, she just knew that somebody hurt her once and then she had babies. I really believe that. She didn’t make that connection, I know that for sure. She was no, she didn’t have a boyfriend, let’s put it that way. And that’s the politest way that I can say that.
    Some of the more harrowing details of Samantha’s testimony recount how her mother was denied society, education, wages and other basic rights for most of her life. This extract recalls Samantha and Etta’s first meeting with Margaret in the Gresham Hotel when they were 23 and had traced her as their biological mother. (Samantha and Etta were adopted by a loving couple in Dublin and later moved to Sligo in childhood.)
    Margaret was only 42 at the time but looked much older. She was carrying a handbag but it was completely empty, because she didn’t own anything nor did she have any money. Samantha recalls:
    And, she was just lovely, and she was asking extremely innocent questions like, she, it was the first time she ever had coffee and it was very exciting for her to have coffee and she hadn’t seen brown sugar before either and obviously in the Gresham there was brown and white sugar cubes on the table and it was all very fancy to her. And she was just overjoyed to be there and absolutely wowed by everything.
    She looked, she looked like a pensioner. I couldn’t believe she was forty-two, I kept looking, I kept looking into her face to find a forty-two year old and I couldn’t, because she had the face of hard work, that face that you see in so many women that have just had to work too hard and have never had a rest and have never had anyone to take care of them or tell them to put their feet up, and who have just, just worked too hard. Because, as I said on the radio a few years ago, this was slavery and I don’t use that term lightly and I’m not an emotive person but slavery is a form of work for which you get no pay and you can’t leave and these were the white slaves of Ireland and they were never emancipated. And nobody stood up for them until now, until you guys (Justice for Magdalenes) did.

    http://www.broadsheet.ie/2016/03/30/whod-have-the-likes-of-you/
    The former Donnybrook laundry compound in Dublin 4 (top) is currently up for sale (centre) and is expected to sell for around €3million.

    The Sisters of Charity ran the laundry from 1883 until 1992 when the order sold it to a private owner who, in turn, ran it as a commercial laundry until 2006.

    A former resident, who didn’t wish to disclose her name, spoke to RTÉ journalist Brian O’Connell about the year she spent in the former Donnybrook magdalene laundry in the 1970s. Independent Dublin City Councillor Mannix Flynn was also interview.

    "In the orphanage it was very bad, very bad. We were starving and we never got proper food to eat, not proper clothes. I never had proper jumpers, I used to darn all the jumpers.

    “And my hair used to be shaved to the scalp. We used to rob the orchards, do you see, you know? And if you were caught robbing in the nun’s orchard, your hair would be shaved. I was locked into a press for three or four days without a bit to eat. That’s the truth, I wouldn’t tell you a lie.”
    The woman was locked in the press because she robbed apples out of hunger.

    She then described what life was like in the Donnybrook laundry.

    “[It was] torture, torture. The work in there, we were so tired at night going to bed, do you know what I mean? And then up at six or half six in the morning to scrub the floors… and then marched in to church for prayers. And then down to work again. You might get bread and dripping or bread and Stork margarine or a cup of cocoa for breakfast in the morning….They ruined our lives. On my deathbed I’ll be thinking about it. I’ll never forgive them [the orders].”

    “We were never allowed to talk to each other, even in the dorms at night, we were never allowed to talk. We had no education, they took away my childhood, I was just traumatised. I got electric shock [treatment], I went to commit suicide when I came out, over the convents. I took an overdose of tablets and everything. Thinking back on all this, what had happened me: why my mother left me?”

    The woman is still looking for her mother.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,536 ✭✭✭✭Varik


    To summarise, St Vincent's getting new hospital built on their campus after merger with largest shareholder being an order of nuns.

    Click bait


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 779 ✭✭✭HONKEY TONK


    I don't see the problem


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭Chuchote


    I don't see the problem

    Well, let's hope you never have septicaemia and need an abortion then.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,544 ✭✭✭Samaris


    I don't see the problem

    The problem is that a lot of people in Ireland want basic social services, by which I mean education and medicine, taken out of the hands of the religious orders in light of two decades of religious scandals involving..well, education and medicine, particularly against the most vulnerable people in Irish society, spanning back to the founding of the State.

    The second problem is that, having been found culpable of a range of horrendous actions against vulnerable people, the Church hasn't finished paying reparations, overall behaved pretty badly in terms of making up for their actions against many people still alive today that suffered through it's less-than-Christian care and the IRRC appears to be getting out of it rather lightly. This ends up with a maternity hospital that will again be owned in most part by an order of nuns who will have a great deal to say in the running of the place and an awful lot of people no longer trust religious orders to be having anything to do with vulnerable pregnant women and their babies.

    While it's true that this order specifically may not have done anything and may not even be inclined to enforce rules in such a way that we have more deaths of pregnant women desperately in need of a procedure the Catholic Church disapproves of, we have seen women die -recently- under a similar order with similar ideals and the vast majority of the population found it shameful. That the Irish State is allowing this certainly comes across as a ridiculously, egregiously, insulting and bad idea. Religious orders have failed in the duties they took up and shown little inclination to truly regret it or fully accept what damage they did and were allowed to do. This is a gesture of putting trust in another such religious order without the Church having really cleaned up its own backyard in terms of its abuses of power over the vulnerable.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭Chuchote


    Samaris wrote: »
    While it's true that this order specifically may not have done anything.

    They certainly did. Look up the Murphy Report. If you can find it… 


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,751 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Chuchote wrote: »
    Well, let's hope you never have septicaemia and need an abortion then.


    Is an abortion considered treatment for septicaemia now? I don't think it is.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,092 ✭✭✭Mr.Wemmick


    It's big business, pure and simple. The corperate RCC, power and money.. money received from years of working slaves and the selling of Irish babies.

    Just lovely.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,589 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson


    Another day another anti RCC thread in AH


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭Chuchote


    Is an abortion considered treatment for septicaemia now? I don't think it is.

    It's the norm if you're in danger of death, like Savita Halapannavar.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 779 ✭✭✭HONKEY TONK


    Mr.Wemmick wrote: »
    It's big business, pure and simple. The corperate RCC, power and money.. money received from years of working slaves and the selling of Irish babies.

    Just lovely.

    I find it funny that people are shaking their fists at the RCC being involved yet more the 90% of the parents who's kids are born there will go running to the church 6 months later to get their baby baptised.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,994 ✭✭✭sullivlo


    Is an abortion considered treatment for septicaemia now? I don't think it is.

    It is if you have septicaemia as a result of a septic miscarriage.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭Chuchote


    I find it funny that people are shaking their fists at the RCC being involved yet more the 90% of the parents who's kids are born there will go running to the church 6 months later to get their baby baptised.

    Partly tradition because the grandad would like it; partly blackmail because their child won't get an education without it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,950 ✭✭✭ChikiChiki


    pjohnson wrote: »
    Another day another anti RCC thread in AH

    Well deserved in fairness. They don't get half enough of the level of criticism they truly deserve.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,751 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Chuchote wrote: »
    It's the norm if you're in danger of death, like Savita Halapannavar.


    Ehh, no, it isn't, not by a long shot, and if I'd realised that's the case you were referring to, I'd have suggested you read the HIQA report which concluded that the cause of her death was medical misadventure, essentially that procedures which dictated that routine checks were observed, weren't.

    The new hospital and it's location will allow for much more efficient treatment of pregnant women if they experience life-threatening conditions during pregnancy or childbirth.

    I don't know that it will improve incompetence levels among staff though.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,751 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Chuchote wrote: »
    Partly tradition because the grandad would like it; partly blackmail because their child won't get an education without it.


    Don't do any fact-checking anyway whatever you do.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    pjohnson wrote: »
    Another day another anti RCC thread in AH

    They may not be the best for the job

    How do they feel about say IVF ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 696 ✭✭✭Noddyholder


    Chuchote wrote: »
    Partly tradition because the grandad would like it; partly blackmail because their child won't get an education without it.

    Or partly because most people in Ireland still follow there catholic faith to some degree or another contrary to what a few folks on boards would have you believe.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,593 ✭✭✭Wheeliebin30


    Just don't pick this hospital to give birth if it bothers you no?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    There is no orchard there, so what is there to worry about?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,279 ✭✭✭The Bishop Basher


    Chuchote wrote: »
    Partly tradition because the grandad would like it; partly blackmail because their child won't get an education without it.

    How do you know this ?

    Or are you just making assumptions about others choices and beliefs based on your own personal experience ?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,092 ✭✭✭Mr.Wemmick


    I find it funny that people are shaking their fists at the RCC being involved yet more the 90% of the parents who's kids are born there will go running to the church 6 months later to get their baby baptised.

    Many no longer do it. Social conditioning and pressure is still evident today; primary school communion springs to mind where it is big business and the RCC spend a lot of energy in and out of primary schools making sure families do what is expected. Educate together schools are on the rise and becoming very popular so changes are happening.

    My kids are not RCC. I don't buy into it, even though my parents did.


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