The NMH at St. Vincents

gctest50

Far from the best

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/catholic-church-s-influence-over-irish-hospital-medicine-persists-1.2626856

. Both the Mater and St Vincent’s prohibit female sterilisation, a standard procedure which is not illegal, and is carried out in non-Catholic-run institutions, as well as other treatment centres. In the 2006 Lourdes hospital inquiry report, Judge Maureen Harding Clark highlighted that the “prohibition on sterilisations” gave rise to the performance of what have been described as compassionate hysterectomies.


Between the 1940s and 1980s, the barbaric symphysiotomy procedure was performed in preference to Caesarean sections, a decision driven by religious ideology.


Further evidence that medical care at State-funded hospitals is often influenced by the religious views of board members surfaced in 1994, when the Mater banned HIV- prevention leaflets and posters from its Aids unit. The hospital’s chief executive agreed the Catholic ethos was a factor in thi

Chuchote

Would it not be more sensible for the State to take St Vincent's and all its parts as part-payment for the vicious abuse over many decades by this order?

whisky_galore

I would be wondering how many actual 'sisters' the order has.

Nuns have to be in their 70's or 80's now. It's not like new recruits are flocking to the cause anymore.

One eyed Jack

Chuchote wrote: »

Would it not be more sensible for the State to take St Vincent's and all its parts as part-payment for the vicious abuse over many decades by this order?

The State outsourced the provision of education, welfare and healthcare services to religious orders in the first place because it couldn't afford it. The State also tied themselves up in Constitutional knots because they now simply can't do what you're suggesting without an amendment to the Constitution, and that would require a referendum, which there is no demand for, in spite of the way you'd be forgiven for thinking otherwise from reading Boards...

and the Irish Times.

Mr.Wemmick

To say that the values of a religion will not have an influence as majority shareholders in a business is very naive. Historically the facts point us in the right direction as to what happens. Murky waters, indeed.

I also find it odd, clearly seen on many a thread on Boards, how people confuse God, the bible and belief in the spiritual as belonging solely to RCC. As if an objective criticism of the RCC as an organization is therefore wholly and totally a criticism of everything spiritual.

The reason that many still hold links to the Church in Ireland is because the RCC have had a stronghold and a monopoly, and many can not separate their need for faith with the Irish Church, even if they wanted to.

I don't see the Irish Church as a true religion anymore, it just big powerful business, like any other.. and just like big business they seem to consistently get away with being held accountable for their crimes.

God is whole different subject.

Chuchote

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The State outsourced the provision of education, welfare and healthcare services to religious orders in the first place because it couldn't afford it. The State also tied themselves up in Constitutional knots because they now simply can't do what you're suggesting without an amendment to the Constitution

I doubt this very much. An organisation involved in the systematic abuse of children and women should be possible to force to pay. It is clear from the revelations during the time of the investigations and since that the action and protection of this was systematic and systemic within the Catholic Church in Ireland - and including what you might call Ireland's church colonies, the American and African missionary outreaches.

seamus

Swanner wrote: »

How do you know this ?

Or are you just making assumptions about others choices and beliefs based on your own personal experience ?

The latest census shows Catholicism on a massive decline.

Being someone who's in the age bracket now where I'm surrounding by parents with young children, the majority of people are getting their kids baptised, but few if any of them have any real religious inkling. They do it to get their kids into schools because nobody in Government has the balls to make it illegal to discriminate based on religion.
The majority certainly wouldn't be particularly anti-religious; they'd be more along the lines of, "Ah shure it did me no harm and isn't it just about the baby Jesus", but they certainly wouldn't be "Catholic" by a longshot.

Mr.Wemmick

whisky_galore wrote: »

I would be wondering how many actual 'sisters' the order has.

Nuns have to be in their 70's or 80's now. It's not like new recruits are flocking to the cause anymore.

They don't necessarily need new nuns, they recruit lawyers, technical staff just like any other business.. but they get to keep their business practices/ methods secret. No one truly knows, but it's more than an educational guess to say they are incredibly wealthy and powerful.

Quite possible the real reason the government doesn't want to disentangle themselves from the Church, it would cost them a fortune. Akin to Brexit, lol!

One eyed Jack

Chuchote wrote: »

I doubt this very much.

I thought you might alright:


ARTICLE 44

1 The State acknowledges that the homage of public worship is due to Almighty God. It shall hold His Name in reverence, and shall respect and honour religion.


2 1° Freedom of conscience and the free profession and practice of religion are, subject to public order and morality, guaranteed to every citizen.


2° The State guarantees not to endow any religion.


3° The State shall not impose any disabilities or make any discrimination on the ground of religious profession, belief or status.


4° Legislation providing State aid for schools shall not discriminate between schools under the management of different religious denominations, nor be such as to affect prejudicially the right of any child to attend a school receiving public money without attending religious instruction at that school.


5° Every religious denomination shall have the right to manage its own affairs, own, acquire and administer property, movable and immovable, and maintain institutions for religious or charitable purposes.


6° The property of any religious denomination or any educational institution shall not be diverted save for necessary works of public utility and on payment of compensation.

An organisation involved in the systematic abuse of children and women should be possible to force to pay. It is clear from the revelations during the time of the investigations and since that the action and protection of this was systematic and systemic within the Catholic Church in Ireland

The systematic and systemic abuse you're referring to was practiced under British rule long before the formation of the State in the form of workhouses. Irish society at the time was quite happy to have the undesirables removed from sight... out of sight, out of mind, etc, but quite happy to support and supply these workhouses with services and workers. It was only upon the formation of the State that the religious orders were given responsibility for the removal of undesirables from Irish society that nobody else wanted to take any responsibility for.

and including what you might call Ireland's church colonies, the American and African missionary outreaches.

I think you might find that it was European explorers setting up African and American colonies rather than any legendary accounts about St. Brendan ever pushing off in his little currach.

Chuchote

None of the constitutional matters preclude criminal prosecution.

Forget the sarcasm about St Brendan - I was, as I suspect you know, referring to the gigantic network of priests and nuns and their bosses spread out across the Americas and Africa (and to an extent the Orient) during the 19th and 20th centuries, huge numbers of whom were Irish and in orders run by the Irish Catholic Church.

Sam Kade

Chuchote wrote: »

I feel like emigrating to a civilised country.

What country would that be?

One eyed Jack

Chuchote wrote: »

None of the constitutional matters preclude criminal prosecution.

That's not what you suggested originally, it's an entirely different scenario.

Forget the sarcasm about St Brendan - I was, as I suspect you know, referring to the gigantic network of priests and nuns and their bosses spread out across the Americas and Africa (and to an extent the Orient) during the 19th and 20th centuries, huge numbers of whom were Irish and in orders run by the Irish Catholic Church.

I wasn't being sarcastic. European explorers and settlers were committing atrocities abroad in the name of King (and/or Queen) and country, long before Irish missionaries ever travelled abroad.

whisky_galore

Mr.Wemmick wrote: »

They don't necessarily need new nuns, they recruit lawyers, technical staff just like any other business.. but they get to keep their business practices/ methods secret. No one truly knows, but it's more than an educational guess to say they are incredibly wealthy and powerful.

Quite possible the real reason the government doesn't want to disentangle themselves from the Church, it would cost them a fortune. Akin to Brexit, lol!

So....it's a racket with just a religious facade now?

The_Valeyard

ChikiChiki wrote: »

Well deserved in fairness. They don't get half enough of the level of criticism they truly deserve.

Ah f*ck off with your bigotry posting.

Sick of anti Catholic threads in AH.


Anything to do with RCC, the SAME posters, the same posts, the same rants.

Chuchote

Sam Kade wrote: »

What country would that be?

It would have been France, but France seems to be going through the same fascistic Catho tube now.

Graces7

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The systematic and systemic abuse you're referring to was practiced under British rule long before the formation of the State in the form of workhouses. Irish society at the time was quite happy to have the undesirables removed from sight... out of sight, out of mind, etc, but quite happy to support and supply these workhouses with services and workers. It was only upon the formation of the State that the religious orders were given responsibility for the removal of undesirables from Irish society that nobody else wanted to take any responsibility for.


Are you really positing that the Catholic Church bore no responsibility for the systemic abuse of literally thousands of Irish children, within living memory?

And are you really calling eg young women who had been raped and were pregnant and incarcerated for that reason " undesirables"?

I was recently at Letterfrack in Connemara, at the burial ground used by the Christian Brothers at their Industrial School, ie where they sent young lads for any reason and none.. Please explain why and how 4 year old was committed there by the Gardai, and have a google at the nearly 100 graves of kids from 4 upwards.

"removal of undesirables from Irish society"?
Says it all really! A total lack of humanity

And how were the tiny babies buried at Tuam "undesirables"?

The sooner the Orders literally die out the better. Giving them yet more power and money is madness.

ScumLord

Someone from the government would need to go in every night and count the babies, then check the bins on the morning.

Graces7

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Ah f*ck off with your bigotry posting.

Sick of anti Catholic threads in AH.


Anything to do with RCC, the SAME posters, the same posts, the same rants.

I am not anti catholic. I am very much anti abuse and making excuses rather than taking the full blame and sincere reparation. The impression given is always that they are not sorry for what they have done, but only that they got caught.

Although I am a good Catholic, or rather because I am, I have not been near a church for a long while. Not in Ireland.

We are expected to confess our sins and make reparation. That is a major teaching. We are not seeing that carried out at higher levels.

Irish Guitarist

Renowned atheist Saint Vincent must be spinning in his grave.

Chuchote

The Catholic Church in Ireland and its branches abroad and its agents raped children, tortured women and ran what was effectively profitable jails for generations, as well as selling babies - to God knows who or what kind of abusers.

Father Flanagan, who founded Boys' Town, was shocked and disgusted and spoke out against the horrors he saw here when he visited Ireland.

seanrambo87

So what if people are having anti-catholic rants? They are a criminal organisation from the top down. They've done more damage to the people of this country than any foreign invader could have hoped to, all with the blessing of the people. Imo anybody proud to be a catholic needs their head examined.

It's laughable that the government is handing over control of this new maternity hospital to ANY religious order;

"In 2013 the Sisters of Charity, along with the three other religious congregations which managed Magdalene laundries, announced that they would not be making any contribution to the State redress scheme for women who had been in the laundries."

What a joke! Shame on them.

The_Valeyard

seanrambo87 wrote: »

So what if people are having anti-catholic rants? They are a criminal organisation from the top down. They've done more damage to the people of this country than any foreign invader could have hoped to, all with the blessing of the people. Imo anybody proud to be a catholic needs their head examined

Just another bigoted post. Another anti Catholic bashing posters fun day.

Common theme these days.

jiltloop

HONKEY TONK wrote: »

I find it funny that people are shaking their fists at the RCC being involved yet more the 90% of the parents who's kids are born there will go running to the church 6 months later to get their baby baptised.

So they have a chance of getting in to a school?

jiltloop

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Just another bigoted post. Another anti Catholic bashing posters fun day.

Common theme these days.

I'm not anti Catholic or anti any religion for that matter but I believe that the church abused it's position of power in this country for many years and has never been properly brought to justice for it.

The powers the church still has in education and healthcare should be gradually removed and religion should be extricated and separated wholly from these important foundational elements of our society as religion has no business being involved in them. It's that simple.

Outlaw Pete

After a traffic accident I ended up in St Joesph's (then part of Beaumont, no idea if it still is) and was treated appallingly there by the head nurse. She treated the nurses below her appallingly also. One day I heard that a complaint was put in on my behalf and when I asked by who, I was told it was by a head sister who had witnessed my mistreatment. Was almost 20 years ago now but that was my only dealing with nuns being involved in the running of hospitals. Place was spotless too as they used to do rounds twice a day to make sure.

The primary school I attended was not religious in any way and yet I had one teacher there who choked me when I was around nine and then denied it. I think in this country we would like to apportion all the blame on misdeeds of the past on the RCC but the reality is that a hell of a lot of people have been abused and mistreated in our schools and hospitals by people who were in no way religious. Not saying that negates any bad that priests or nuns have done throughout time but I feel it needs to be pointed out and as the RCC and those connected with it far from had a monopoly on pure badness.

Widdershins

I don't like the sound of this.

Kiith

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Just another bigoted post. Another anti Catholic bashing posters fun day.

Common theme these days.

Just curious...do you think this is good news? You have no reservations about this at all?

I'm absolutely against it myself, as i don't think the Church has any place in our hospitals, schools or government. I don't care if they are the most common religion...they should be completely separate from the above fields.

Widdershins

HONKEY TONK wrote: »

I find it funny that people are shaking their fists at the RCC being involved yet more the 90% of the parents who's kids are born there will go running to the church 6 months later to get their baby baptised.

Even so, to go to the church for a religious business is very different to having the church involved in maternity healthcare. People want the two to be separate.

groovyg

The same order run Temple St Children's Hospital & Our Lady's Hospice in Harold's Cross, why the outrage about the new maternity hospital?

osarusan

It will be owned by a group called St Vincent's Healthcare Group, in which they are a shareholder (majority shareholder?).

What influence does that give them in the running of the hospital?

It's hardly no influence, yet a dept of health spokesperson said “autonomy of the national maternity hospital board will be underpinned by reserved powers to ensure clinical and operational independence, and the Minister for Health will hold the power to protect those reserved powers”.