Bealtaine festival and first day of summer

M.T. Cranium

Might be a good showing for the Perseids this year, already seeing fireballs here a week before the peak time.

Orion402

The 24 hour day is an average derived from the variations in the natural noon cycle and these variations come from the same dynamical cause as the seasons.

If sand or a water clock is used to measure the length of one noon cycle to the next, there would be differing amounts of sand or water for each individual cycle. If 20 measurements are made, then combined and divided equally, this is what the average 24 hour day represents. Clock noon is anchored to natural noon this way, hence one rotation keeps clock noon in close proximity to natural noon.

The Earth has two surface rotations acting in combination to generate the seasons, but these rotations acting in combination also create the variations in length of the natural noon cycle. Daily rotation is constant, while the surface rotation as a function of the orbital motion varies in response to the Earth's variable orbital speed. The combination of these surface rotations, one constant and the other variable, was registered by older societies at noon who averaged the variations through a timekeeping facility called the Aequation of Natural Days-

" Here take notice, that the Sun or the Earth passes the 12 signs, or makes an entire revolution in the Ecliptic in 365 days, 5 hours 49 min. or there about, and that those days, reckoned from noon to noon, are of different lenghts; as is known to all that are versed in Astronomy. Now between the longest and the shortest of those days, a day may be taken of such a length, as 365 such days, 5. hours &c. (the same numbers as before) make up, or are equal to that revolution: And this is called the Equal or Mean day, according to which the Watches are to be set; and therefore the Hour or Minute showed by the Watches, though they be perfectly just and equal, must needs differ almost continually from those that are shew'd by the Sun, or are reckon'd according to its Motion. But this Difference is regular, and is otherwise call'd the Aequation" Huygens

https://adcs.home.xs4all.nl/Huygens/06/kort-E.html

Huygens made an error which affected later academics but that can wait, it is enough that readers come to understand how the 24 hour day is created and therefore equable hours, minutes and seconds with it. It is the basis of the Lat/Long system which is overlaid on the Earth's daily rotational characteristics and determines the planet turns once every 24 hours as an inviolate fact.

It takes a great deal of effort to work through all the details, however, observers who can associate one 24 hour day with one rotation of the planet can now go on to enjoy the real cause of the seasons and why natural noon cycles vary using two surface rotations acting in combination. It is new and designed to be as accessible as possible to those who do not wish to be swindled by a community that have no discipline nor common sense.

Oneiric 3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119428823#Comment_119428823

Regardless of how we measure time, or how accurate that measurement is, time still exists. And in time, we will lose many family members and friends to time, and that time will come for us all eventually. Make the most of the present and enjoy it for what it is, because soon it will be no more. The future is always.

riffmongous

Hm I think I'm getting it now, so what was the error of Huygens?

WJL

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119429819#Comment_119429819

What's your day job, do you mind me asking Orion? This is a very passionate hobby. Good to have strong interests.

riffmongous

For any readers interested in getting in trying to follow the 'discussion', perhaps this article will be of help

https://medium.com/the-philipendium/a-day-is-not-24-hours-c36ee96078c6

"To conclude, let’s return to our original question: How long is a day? If we define a day based on an actual, daily, observable physical phenomenon, then we have two possible answers. If we define a day as one complete spin of the Earth on its axis — a stellar day — then a day is about 4 minutes less than 24 hours. If we define a day as the time between true noon one day and true noon the next day — a solar day — then the length of a day varies throughout the year, ranging from 21 seconds less than 24 hours to 30 seconds more than 24 hours. But if we take the average length of all the solar days in a year, then the result is exactly 24 hours, which is how we arrived at our standard day. However, there are only 4 times each year when the standard day and the true solar day have the same length. The upshot is that the standard 24-hour day is not something found in nature, but a human invention that only roughly corresponds to the real days — solar days or stellar days — that we actually experience on Earth."

Orion402

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119429994#Comment_119429994

" Here take notice, that the Sun or the Earth passes the 12 signs, or makes an entire revolution in the Ecliptic in 365 days, 5 hours 49 min. or there about, and that those days, reckoned from noon to noon, are of different lenghts; as is known to all that are versed in Astronomy.  Now between the longest and the shortest of those days, a day may be taken of such a length, as 365 such days, 5. hours &c. (the same numbers as before) make up, or are equal to that revolution: And this is called the Equal or Mean day, according to which the Watches are to be set" Huygens

The 24 hour day is an extension of the 365/366 day calendar cycle so an adjustment was required for February 29th in a leap year and first introduced by John Harrison himself. The Equation of Time, as it became known, cannot exist within a fractional year of 365 days 5 hours 49 minutes for in order to create fractions of the 24 hour day in terms of equable hours, minutes and seconds, the connection between one rotation, one clock noon cycle and one natural noon cycle must be maintained. The equivalency of the Sun's motion through the constellations equating with the Earth's annual motion had really bad consequences as the theorists tried to replace the Lat/Long system with RA/Dec reckoning for the purpose of the clockwork solar system. I would just leave that be until the basics are appreciated.

Orion402

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119430092#Comment_119430092

Don't mistake a vocation for a hobby.

As a Christian, you should understand that mediocrity among Christians and not unbelief was despised by the early Christians and with good reason. If you have to ask me what my job is then you know nothing of Christian gifts and what is being done here.

The Catholic Church has a great deal to answer for in terms of the technical issues surrounding the Galileo affair which eventually led to empirical modelling and the predictive monstrosities associated with that subculture.

WJL

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119430235#Comment_119430235

Fair enough I won't be asking again.

Orion402

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119430253#Comment_119430253

As a Christian, what part of the following do you have trouble with?-

"Above all the graces and all the gifts of the Holy Spirit which Christ grants to his friends, is the grace of overcoming oneself, and accepting willingly, out of love for Christ, all suffering, injury, discomfort and contempt; for in all other gifts of God we cannot glory, seeing they proceed not from ourselves but from God" St Francis of Assisi *

http://www.missa.org/joie_parfaite_e.php

The theorists are hobbyists having a ball with humanity while not being able to handle even basic planetary facts and so what if it is their jobs and get paid for it, I would just as soon see them being productive and creative rather than full of pretence because people know no better.

* " Who confers distinction upon you? What do you possess that you have not received? But if you have received it, why are you boasting as if you did not receive it? You are already satisfied; you have already grown rich; you have become kings without us! Indeed, I wish that you had become kings, so that we also might become kings with you." St Paul

I enjoy what I do because I can do it and know what others have done of equal value because in these matters, this is what it means to be a Christian-

"When a natural discourse paints a passion or an effect, one feels within oneself the truth of what one reads, which was there before, although one did not know it. Hence, one is inclined to love him who makes us feel it, for he has not shown us his own riches, but ours. And thus this benefit renders him pleasing to us, besides that such community of intellect as we have with him necessarily inclines the heart to love." Pascal

These things have to be said in case people imagine there is a self-serving purpose to all this.

NedsNotDead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119430235#Comment_119430235

You're assuming that the OP is a Christian and the other posters are Christian. A slightly arrogant assumption

Gaoth Laidir

Someone please end this circus and set the lions on the Ringmaster.

WJL

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119430677#Comment_119430677

Absolutely. It's a real soap box for a certain poster.

Orion402

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119430108#Comment_119430108

Pure junk.

There is just the 24 hour day which gives us equable hours, minutes and seconds and the averaging process which anchors 24 hour clock noon to natural noon and where the natural inequality is created by two surface rotations acting in combination. As the terms 'average' and 'constant' share roughly the same meaning, for the purpose of timekeeping, the average 24 hour day can substitute for constant rotation at a rate of 15 degree per hour and therefore once in 24 hours. It takes a keen mind to navigate through the issue.

People who insist that there are more rotations than there are sunset/noon/sunset appearances in a year do so on account of a silly conclusion made back in the late 17th century-

"... our clocks kept so good a correspondence with the Heavens that I doubt it not but they would prove the revolutions of the Earth to be isochronical [constant]... " Flamsteed to Moore

The return of a star to the same location using a watch only demonstrates the accuracy of the watch as the observation is made using what effectively is a rotating celestial sphere of stars-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYy0EQBnqHI

It completely omits the annual change in the position of the stars parallel to the Earth's orbital plane just as a person in a car would see objects on one side of a traffic roundabout change to the other as the car travelled in a circle in imitation of a planetary equivalent-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2uCtot1aDg

This is where you set your watches and clocks aside and consider the observations like reasonable people for a change. The difference between the first time lapse and the second is that a satellite, free from the influences of daily rotation, picks up the annual motion of the Earth while keeping its focus on the central/stationary Sun using the annual change in the position of the stars as an orbital gauge.

No matter what, the demonstration that the Earth orbits the central Sun by using the annual change in the position of the stars is a test for every individual as it is new and only made possible by satellite imaging. There is literally no effort required and from there it becomes possible to undo the damage inherited from an undisciplined era that misused clock technology for solar system research just as they now misuse computer technology for the Earth science of climate.

Orion402

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119430686#Comment_119430686

Some Christian you are. Toss him to the lions (whoever they are) but I only encounter those who are lost to the careful considerations and lack the discipline and common sense needed to extract a society from what are just overgrown hobbyists wrecking havoc in areas of research to which they are unsuited.

Not being able to affirm that one 24 hour day is also one rotation and a thousand rotations in a thousand 24 hour days is perhaps far worse than a flat Earth assertion insofar as those unfortunates are in the minority with their contrived reasoning while the 'sidereal day' modellers who insist on more rotations than 24 hour days in a year are considered an authority among humanity and that is quite a large soap box.

My Christian heritage in solar system and Earth science research faded dramatically after the Galileo affair and eventually the dull and dreary subculture took over of which so many are a part. It shows in how observers here treat 21st century imaging.

Gaoth Laidir

Orion, you're just going around and around in circles, posting that Hawai video I don't know how many times. You speak of daily rotations, etc., but I wonder how many of these rotations you're doing yourself per day. Too many. Nobody wants to listen to you. Nobody is listening to you. You're bringing religion into it. You're getting away with it and I don't know why. The only moderating that can bé done on this forum now it seems is for us to each use the Ignore feature. Take the hint and gtfo of here.

Orion402

The only valid day is the 24 hour day with the nominal variations of Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and so on. These days represent one rotation of the planet with the continuity of the February 29th day/rotation returning the planet close to the Solstice and Equinox points with the 1461st rotation (three years of 365 rotations and one year of 366 rotations). This masterpiece of human observation gives us the calendar system based on a proportion of 365 1/4 days/rotations to 1 orbital circuit.

The division of the seasons uses the Solstice and Equinox points as mid-divisions, so that from the August 1st to October 31st represents one season with the North pole equidistant to the divisor on those dates. At the end of October, the North pole will be in full darkness as that location has turned into the dark hemisphere of the Earth by 45 degrees ( 90 degrees on the December Solstice).

Dealing with a subculture is not a pleasant task outside the technical details, however, readers have learned where the average 24 hour day comes from, how the calendar is constructed using the seasonal appearance of Sirius as a milestone, how to demonstrate that the Earth moves around the Sun using the annual change in position of the stars, how the faster moving planets are viewed differently than the slower moving planets from Earth and many other historical ad technical details.

All these things happen regardless of the racket on the surface of the planet by people who are less than careful. The only insult I know of is that people do not try and therefore never do better for themselves and ultimately wider society.

highdef

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119431251#Comment_119431251

I enabled the ignore function for the poster in question several days ago. That was the first time I was empowered to do so and I say this as a Boards user for almost 20 years.

Moderating has gone to the dogs here and it's bringing down the quality and tone of the forums. You've publicly put up a post asking a specific user to get the **** out of here - not too long ago, you'd probably be banned from this forum for a week for saying such a thing but lately you can say pretty much anything you want without repercussions and that is doing harm to Boards.ie as a whole.

Orion402

To take the heat off the moderators and the persistent appeals, I do urge people to hit the ignore button, although the downside of that is that it leaves the contributors open to any comment I make in other threads without the ability to respond. I would just ignore the thread altogether as there is really only a small audience, at least presently, who can handle the historical and technical details without complaining and who have a wider perspective of planetary dynamics and Earth sciences which include both weather and climate.

I too wish to engage in the volcano thread but appreciate the images too much to interfere in the topic so there are compromises all around.

I match up zonal flows in the atmosphere of Jupiter with zonal flows of material beneath the fractured crust of the Earth-

Iceland exists on the Mid Atlantic Ridge, where crust develops symetrically along the rotational axis of the Earth indicating differential rotation across latitudes-

The inability to deal with rotational velocities across latitudes with a maximum equatorial rotation velocity is hindering consideration of differential rotation for evolutionary geological purposes and especially the Mid Atlantic Ridge and the symmetrical generation of oceanic crust either side of the Ridge. The 'sidereal day' modellers give an Equatorial rotation velocity of 1,674.4 km/h as per their misadventure, however, the 24 hour and Lat/Long system generates a value of 1,669.8 km/h which allows researcher to consider effects of daily rotational effects properly in all areas of research.

Zonal flow in the atmosphere works with the flow of viscous material beneath the fractured crust and demonstrates how one area of research crosses over to another. It is making planetary planetary comparisons for weather, climate, geology and other purposes and that is expansive and genuine science.

Gaoth Laidir

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119431765#Comment_119431765

Ignore should be a last resort...and it is now. Enabled it.

Orion402

The many different components which make life possible on Earth are drawn from geology, climate, biology and more importantly, the motions of the planet in a Sun-centred system. This is the basis of all research as opposed to the false choice that the ramifications of dire weather events is human caused or nature caused which now comprise the self-inflicted misadventure of climate change modelling.

I am not indifferent to the unnecessary hype created by the proponents and opponents of this misadventure, however, it is more important to stabilise the topic of planetary climate as a result of planetary motions and their traits than contend with those who are essentially computer gaming on false premises. Finding common ground in an intellectual atmosphere of extremes is always going to be challenging for any individual because what can be more exciting than an artificially created roller coaster ride by modellers in contrast to a normal walk through the countryside which amounts to genuine climate research.

Raising the standard of consideration and information sharing generally avoids the bag of tricks the proponents/opponents use to keep people blinkered to anything but the empirical misadventure. This perspective is not new for although Von Humboldt was an empiricist himself, he loosely pointed out that a societies that operates out of extreme convictions misses out on the real joys of natural phenomena. I include that commentary for more reasonable researchers who wish to use modelling for interpretative purposes rather than predictive purposes and it does take courage to become involved in comparative modelling-

"This assemblage of imperfect dogmas bequeathed by one age to another-- this physical philosophy, which is composed of popular prejudices,--is not only injurious because it perpetuates error with the obstinacy engendered by the evidence of ill observed facts, but also because it hinders the mind from attaining to higher views of nature. Instead of seeking to discover the mean or medium point, around which oscillate, in apparent independence of forces, all the phenomena of the external world, this system delights in multiplying exceptions to the law, and seeks, amid phenomena and in organic forms, for something beyond the marvel of a regular succession, and an internal and progressive development. Ever inclined to believe that the order of nature is disturbed, it refuses to recognise in the present any analogy with the past, and guided by its own varying hypotheses, seeks at hazard, either in the interior of the globe or in the regions of space, for the cause of these pretended perturbations. It is the special object of the present work to combat those errors which derive their source from a vicious empiricism and from imperfect inductions[false premises]." Von Humboldt ,Cosmos

My thanks to the moderators for facilitating these perspectives.

Orion402

This material would not interest experimentalists nor their many followers and cheerleaders.

They say the Arctic is melting, however, Arctic sea ice melts every year-

"There is no real consensus of the Arctic area," he said. "So we use the Arctic Circle, which at least in our opinion, is the proper definition for the Arctic area."

https://news.sky.com/story/arctic-warming-occurring-even-faster-than-previously-thought-new-study-suggests-12670589

A definite demarcation of the Arctic using the expansion and contraction of circles where the Sun remains in view using the North pole as its centre comprising of the two surface rotations acting in combination is the only way to approach the Arctic sea ice cycle.

Midsummer is when the North pole has turned midway to the planet's dark hemisphere thereby creating the largest circle so presently that circle is shrinking until it disappear altogether on the September Equinox.

It is an enjoyable experience to put cyclical weather events in context of planetary dynamics as Arctic sea ice melting following the underlying dynamics-

https://greatwhitecon.info/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/Chartic_sea-ice-2019-09-20.png

This is for those who enjoy what is normal before appealing to records and extremes.

highdef

Because I've chosen to ignore (first time I've selected to ignore someone on boards for the almost 20 years that I've been here) Orion402, I can't see their reply but I assume it's about the fantastic late summer weather we're having and that it's amazing that the next few days could challenge the all time temperature record for Ireland. But it is summer and it's the season where such high temperatures can occur

Cumhachtach

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119461453#Comment_119461453

August is an integral part of summer alright. I've just stumbled into this thread. I'm worried about the meaningless, often contradictory, ramblings of a poster. I don't know if they are compos mentis, probably not. I won't be coming back.

Orion402

Attempting to determine the seasons outside planetary dynamics and the traits of daily and annual motions in combination leads to the same wishy washy thinking that applies to predictive climate modelling. For example, Americans consider the June Solstice as the beginning of summer so the consensus changes from nation to nation depending on latitude, continental/maritime climates and things like that. The same with the Arctic, insofar as the expansion and contraction of a circumference with the North/South poles at their centre determines the Arctic area geographically, dynamically, meteorologically and bottom line.

On the June Solstice, the North pole is nearer the Sun than the South pole as the surface turns parallel to the orbital plane as a function of the orbital motion of the Earth. The North pole is about 4,000 km from the dark hemisphere of the Earth on the June Solstice and is presently substantially less than 2,000 km from the planet's divisor as that Northern latitude presently turns at an uneven rate of 44 km per day. It means the radius between the North pole and the planet's divisor is shrinking and with it the surface area where the Sun remains constantly in view.

https://www.sunrise-and-sunset.com/en/sun/norway/hammerfest/2022/july

For example, on July 30th, the radius between North pole and the divisor extended to Hammerfest, Norway. As Hammerfest also turns as a function of daily rotation, as it moves into the dark hemisphere of the Earth it enters and exits the dark hemisphere (sunrise/sunset), with increasing lengths of time as can be seen through August (the Timeanddate website is far better, however, some moderator saw it fit to block the website).

Planetary climate is defined as the rate and range of change across latitudes so that depends on the relationship between the inclination of polar latitude to the orbital plane which creates the range of the expanding and contracting Arctic/Antarctic circles but also the rate of change from Solstices to Equinoxes, Solstices to Solstices and ultimately the full planetary cycle.