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Bealtaine festival and first day of summer

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  • 01-05-2022 12:19pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 408 ✭✭


    This is a wonderful day where the old calendar in operation in Ireland stretching back to remote antiquity coincides with the present calendar. The year was originally divided into two halves with the dark half from November 1st extending to April 30th and the light half of the year from May 1st covering the next 6 months. As our present calendar is divided into four stages, it makes sense from all perspectives to begin summer on May 1st to mesh with the motions of the planet.

    Both noon and midsummer represent different variations of the same fact. In the case of daily rotation at a local level, a location is midway to the dark hemisphere of the Earth at noon while in the case of orbital motion divided by hemisphere, midsummer represents the position of the North pole midway to the dark hemisphere of the Earth.



    Temperatures rise beyond noon and the same happens after midsummer on the June Solstice.

    It is really unhelpful to break the seasons, as current people are inclined to do, into meteorological and astronomical seasons as it obstructs an appreciation of the dynamics which go into the combination of daily and annual motions. It is, therefore, no small matter.



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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,237 ✭✭✭highdef


    Can't say I agree with your statements however that is my own personal opinion, which does not result in me being either right or wrong. How does the Pagan calendar coincide with the present calendar today? Today we are about 2/3 of the way through meteorological Spring. Regarding astronomical Spring, we've not reached the half way mark.

    The majority of trees are only coming into leaf now and there are many that are still only budding, such as our native Ash. With that in mind, I find it difficult to accept that this is now summer.

    Similarly, during August, when the flora around the country is bursting with life, with so many plants in full flower combined with what are often the balmiest nights of the year and sometimes the warmest days too doesn't inspire me to accept that it is a month of the autumn season.

    Can you provide some background to the graph you posted? Maybe I'm missing something but I really can't see the relevance of it for the topic you're discussing.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,436 ✭✭✭boardise


    Yeah , it's all about Bel -the well-known arsonist. He went on an odyssey around Ireland once and placenames mark his deeds.e.g He did a spot of fishing at Belturbet, cracked a joke at Bellaugh and stopped for a pee at Belleek. We can only guess what he did in Belgooly.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Gaoth Laidir


    "Can you provide some background to the graph you posted? Maybe I'm missing something but I really can't see the relevance of it for the topic you're discussing."

    That's the case with 99.9% of what Orion posts. Constantly starting new threads under false pretenses, all in an effort to put forward this same irrelevant copy and paste essay on the rotation of the planets.



  • Registered Users Posts: 408 ✭✭Orion402


    Raising the standard of consideration sometimes means leaving those people behind who are content with recent flawed notions they inherited, however, there are always those who appreciate the traditions of this island stretching back to remote antiquity where the seasons and the motions of the planet combine and certainly represented by alignments in the working monuments like Newgrange and Knowth.

    Noon, or the middle of the day, is the anchor for the daily cycle as it always occurs midway between sunrise and sunset just as the June Solstice is the anchor for midsummer coming midway between the March and September Equinoxes. At the North pole there is only one sunrise on the March Equinox, one sunset on the opposite September Equinox while polar noon is on the June Solstice. At midsummer on the June Solstice, we see the Sun scribe its widest arc at out latitudes, whereas at the North pole, the Sun scribes its smallest arc.


    Within a week of that time lapse, the Sun drops below the horizon for 6 months, whereas at the North pole the Sun appears for the first time in 6 months as the polar location turns into the light hemisphere of the Earth and creating an expanding circle of constant radiation as the radius between the North pole and the dark hemisphere grows.


    The dynamics behind the great Northern festivals like midsummer around the June Solstice should be celebrated as they have been for thousands of years as the North pole reaches its destination on the June Solstice at the greatest distance from the dark hemisphere-


    Weather, climate and planetary motions are more of a culture of humanity, whereas modelling a speculative conclusion or vandalising stable reasoning surrounding the Equinoxes and Solstices as seasonal points for many purposes is a subculture.

    Post edited by Orion402 on


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,237 ✭✭✭highdef


    And the graph in your initial post, what is the relevance of it? You haven't responded to my query about it.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 408 ✭✭Orion402



    Each of those peaks and troughs represent the basic fact that temperatures rise after midday (noon) is passed as the planet turns once every 24 hours.



    Temperatures rise after midsummer on the June Solstice reflecting two surface rotations acting in combination.

    The anchor for the annual cycle is the June Solstice just as noon is the anchor for the sunrise/noon/sunset daily cycle. Beginning the calendar year on January 1st is fine, however, more reasonable people are expected to be able to put the daily noon cycle in context of the annual cycle in terms of temperature fluctuations based on planetary motions.

    The beginning of May is also the beginning of summer in order to retain midsummer and the June Solstice as the basis for weather and solar system research. Once again, it is no small matter.



  • Registered Users Posts: 408 ✭✭Orion402


    The notion of astronomical summer as opposed meteorological summer is as insulting as the notion of astronomical noon as opposed to meteorological noon a few hours later. If people choose to insult themselves with the recent emergence of this astronomical/meteorological dichotomy then they are going to miss out on the relevance of the annual fluctuation in temperatures in terms of climate research, including the insight that temperatures rise after the June Solstice.



    https://calgary.rasc.ca/images/planet_inclinations.gif


    If the Earth had an inclination like Jupiter, then temperature fluctuations across an annual circuit in Bray (as an example) would be even flatter than a location near the Equator where there are no seasonal changes-


    http://www.expatarrivals.com/sites/default/files/images/chile-san-pedro-weather-chart.png


    If the Earth had an inclination like Uranus, there would be extreme peaks and troughs.


    This is why it is important to retain the more stable and older conceptions of midsummer.

    Post edited by Orion402 on


  • Registered Users Posts: 408 ✭✭Orion402


    For the sake of consistency between daily noon and midsummer in terms of rising temperatures after midday or after the June Solstice, there is just summer with the beginning of May as the start of summer. There is no astronomical summer as opposed to meteorological summer for the same reason there is no astronomical noon as opposed to meteorological noon.

    The noon cycle is dependent on daily rotation whereas the annual cycle is dependent on two surface rotations acting in combination so this is why the discernment is important, not just for the sake of consistency but a more satisfying explanation for daily and annual seasonal fluctuations.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,237 ✭✭✭highdef


    In any case, to state I'm insulting myself because of my thoughts and opinions as to when a given season occurs, is in itself a very insulting thing to say. Moreso, the majority of people reading this thread will have a differing opinion to yourself and you are, essentially, insulting a lot of people.

    Empathy is a very important thing because humans are very social animals and it is really important to try view things from different viewpoints. You may have a view or an opinion on a topic however it's essential that you try imagine the reasonings behind why a person may not agree with your own opinion. Equally important is how you convey your message or opinion.

    If you do decide to respond to this message here, just be aware that I am known for being extremely polite and I always recognise differing opinions. Even if there is a debate with someone that still results in a disagreement about the topic in question, we will have both made our points and will have agreed recognition of each other's thoughts.

    To be totally engrossed in your own opinions and to totally disregard any person who does not fully support your opinions is extremely insulting to everyone and is, in fact, insulting to yourself too.

    It is, therefore, no small matter.



  • Registered Users Posts: 408 ✭✭Orion402


    I hope enough people enjoy the consistency which links noon with the June Solstice in terms of planetary dynamics with the added benefit of removing the idea of astronomical summer as opposed to meteorological summer. When summer exists as it always has on this island and its culture for many thousands of years with midsummer on the June Solstice between May 1st and August 1st, it opens a gateway into planetary climate using the added function of planetary inclination to the orbital plane.

    There is no opinion/theory here, just consistency in reasoning and meant to be enjoyed rather than disputed.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,237 ✭✭✭highdef


    So you say summer is the three months beginning 1st of May. You also say that the June solstice is midsummer. I'm not a mathematician but it's glaringly obviously that the June solstice does not fall half way through summer but occurs later than that, almost a week later, in fact. The middle of summer occurs half way through the season however by your definition that is not the case.

    Perhaps mathematics are somehow omitted with regards to deciding when midsummer occurs but I would be most obliged if you could provide a logical and factual explanation as to how the middle of summer does not occur half way through the season of summer.

    I guess the same query can be applied to any season but I'm using the season of summer for this reply.



  • Registered Users Posts: 408 ✭✭Orion402



    The graphs dictate that daily noon and the June Solstice indicate that temperatures rise after midday and midsummer as a reflection of the planet's motions . It is a point of departure for considering planetary climate as the next topic is the rate and degree of change across latitudes that represents proper planetary climate research. The consistent reasoning is not for everyone so if you want to believe there is meteorological noon as opposed to astronomical noon then be my guest, it is no better or worse than any other perspectives I have seen coming from a subculture which avoids links between planetary dynamics and effects on the surface, oceans and atmosphere.


    Back to the matter at hand. The older monuments in Ireland (Tara, Listoghil) had alignments to Samhain and Imbolc which represent a 3 month period so it is not a matter of making the older system fit with the modern calendar, although it closely does, it is the accuracy inherent in the midwinter, Equinox and alignments which split the difference-


    In terms of these alignments, the Sun declines towards midwinter at the December Solstice on Samhain (ancient New Year) or around November 1st in the modern calendar and rises in declination on Imbolc or roughly the beginning of February. It marks 3 months with midwinter dividing the 3 month period with another 3 month period linking to what is the beginning of May to the beginning of August with midsummer dividing that period. It is not just culturally but also an astronomically and meteorologically sound view as it incorporates their festivals and daily endeavours such as agriculture into reckonings that still exist today if people care to look up their island heritage-

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imbolc

    Bringing this up to the contemporary era. Any location at noon is midway to the dark hemisphere of the Earth are the planet turns once, hence the middle of the day even though temperatures are still rising. On the June Solstice, the North polar latitude where daily rotation is absent has turned midway to the dark hemisphere of the Earth as a function of orbital motion and in doing so creates the largest circumference and surface area, with the North pole at its centre, where the Sun remains constantly in view. It is celebrated as a midsummer festival in Nordic countries.

    Lots to discuss and consider as an enjoyable endeavour.

    Post edited by Orion402 on


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,237 ✭✭✭highdef


    Right, so the summer equinox and midsummer occur at the same time but midsummer does not actually occur in the middle of summer. How can that happen? Noon/midday is the middle of the day, at 12:00. That's why it's called midday.

    Solar noon is a completely kettle of fish as it varies depending on your location. My thinking is that when you refer to noon, you are in fact referring to solar noon.

    With reference to you stating that there is lots to discuss as an enjoyable endeavour, it seems that your own personal opinions are only what you are willing to accept so I can't see how there could be any sort of discussion to be had. I'm not seeing any other responses by other posters here.

    Even the fact that you state that the summer equinox and mid summer occur at the same time, half way through the three months of what you regard as being summer, beginning 1st of May, is a contradiction as the midway point of summer occurs almost a week before the equinox.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,913 ✭✭✭Danno


    Just throwing a tuppence in here, but wasn't there a calendar adjustment in the 1700s sometime that added a few days to make up for unaccounted leap years? Would this adjustment go some way in explaining why Midsummer now occurs on June 21st/22nd as opposed to say 15th/16th? I dunno - just one of the first things I thought of!

    My thinking is that those folks back in the day that built amazing things like Newgrange, Stonehenge, The Pyramids, etc... had plenty of time to study things - it's not like they were worrying about a mortgage or the car repayments!



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,473 ✭✭✭✭M.T. Cranium


    Danno, the calendar was adjusted in Europe in the 16th century and in Britain (and then also in Ireland) in 1752. Ten days were left out of the year in Europe, and 11 for the later change made in Britain (and its colonies at the time in North America). Actually there had been too many leap years since Roman times and the natural progression of the seasons was appearing to set in too early because of those extra unnecessary days. Removing the days, and revising the system to drop leap years that end in 00 unless multiples of 400 (1800 and 1900 were not leap years) has fixed the drift so that only very minor changes might be necessary now to keep the seasons in sync with the calendar. The change was made on the authority of Pope Gregory therefore the new calendar is the Gregorian calendar and the previous one (from Roman times) was the Julian calendar. You will also see "O.S." (old style) with dates in the medieval period if they refer to the Julian calendar, and "N.S." (new style) for Gregorian calendar dates.

    After posting this I looked up the details ... many parts of Europe changed by dropping the dates 5 to 14 Oct in 1582, France went with the change in December where 9 Dec was followed by 20 Dec, so by the end of 1582, Catholic Europe was ten days ahead of Protestant nations that did not make the change (until 1752 in England and 1753 in Sweden). That change came about in September 1752 when 3 to 13 September were dropped from the calendar. Apparently 1752 was a very momentous year in Britain because the custom of starting the year in March was altered to a 1st of January start to the civil year. Then the eleven days were dropped from that year. Should note also there are many local variations on these general rules. Consult this source if you want to see the full range ...

    https://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_adoption_dates_of_the_Gregorian_calendar_by_country

    If we had not made this change, today's date of 7th May would be 24th April and in fact Russia did not adopt the "Gregorian" calendar until 1918, which is why the 1917 Revolution is called the "October" Revolution even though it took place on November 7th in our estimation. The fact that they observed 1800 and 1900 as leap years then put them 13 days behind (earlier, the fact that Britain observed 1700 as a leap year had changed the differential from the 10 days in Europe's calendar change to the 11 days required for Britain). Some eastern Orthodox churches still observe the Julian calendar. It will remain 13 days behind through this century because the two calendars agreed that 2000 was a leap year, then it will go to 14 days differential after 2100 which will not be a leap year in the Gregorian calendar. Herschel calculated that if 4000 (and 8000, 12000 etc) were also dropped as leap years, there would be no significant error in the Gregorian calendar until second order orbital effects not perfectly understood began to affect the situation at some unknown distant future time -- as of now, the year 4000 would still be a leap year unless some international body convinces nations to add that detail to the planning of the Gregorian calendars of distant future years. This entire state of affairs has fixed the solstices and equinoxes into narrow ranges of dates but the general logic is that they drift later in time until the years like 2000, 2400 with the retained leap years pushes the progression back to a new starting point.

    I think this discussion about when summer "really" occurs is of course a matter of personal choice, but logically speaking, if the summer solstice around 21st of June was traditionally the start of the astronomical season, but was also called "mid-summer day" then people must have had divided opinions about when summer occurred. The argument for May, June and July being the actual summer rests on the length of daylight and coincidentally (at least in Ireland) the maximum amounts of sunshine. May is actually the brightest month of the year in most parts of Ireland, except the southeast where it goes to July as in parts of southern Britain. In North American climates, similar differences occur, some regions have their most sunshine in April and May, others in June or July.

    The choice of June, July and August as "meteorological summer" is arbitrary too. But the entire process is an attempt to have summer overlap either the warmest or the brightest quarter of the year (which may be two different portions). The warmest quarter of the year turns out to be pretty much a compromise between astronomical and meteorological summer, something like 12 June to 12 September is the warmest non-calendar month portion of the year. (this varies from region to region and shifts around slightly from one epoch to another).

    GL can also tell you more details but the longest days of the year (which we associate with the June solstice) actually cover a period of about a week after the solstice because sunrises and sunsets change on a slightly different timetable and the time elapsed flattens out to a nearly equal amount for that week (roughly 20-27 June time frame, I don't have the details in front of me).

    Another factor that should be recognized is that a continental climate will come closest to having peak warmth at the time of longest daylight, while maritime climates will have a longer lag time. September can be the warmest average month in some parts of the west coast of North America, as the ocean water temperature slowly adjusts to the annual insolation cycle. Places in the tropics can have their warmest months at odd times, for example in Thailand, April and May are the warmest months of the year. It tends to be cloudier and wetter by June and July, then when the sun passes back overhead in August the rainy season is well established.

    While European folk traditions have the summer earlier than the peak of warmth, in my part of the world, people tend to think of summer as July, August and September. June tends to be cloudier and often does not warm up very quickly. September often prolongs the normal fine weather we tend to get most frequently mid-July to mid-August in this climate. In Ontario on the other hand, most people prefer to go with the astronomical seasons and are largely unaware of the existence of the meteorological seasons which in any case don't match the local climate very well. It is much less likely to be wintry in early December than in mid-March in Ontario. People might think of April as being a spring month but are not very surprised if it stays wintry at least for the first half.

    Post edited by M.T. Cranium on


  • Registered Users Posts: 408 ✭✭Orion402


    The calendar adjustment was made because the proportions of rotations to orbital circuits is not exactly 1461 rotations for 4 orbital circuits (365 1/4 rotations for 1 circuit) based on the original reference and foundation for the calendar with a leap day after the fourth cycle-


    ".. on account of the procession of the rising of Sirius by one day in the course of 4 years,.. therefore it shall be, that the year of 360 days and the 5 days added to their end, so one day shall be from this day after every 4 years added to the 5 epagomenae before the new year" Canopus Decree 238 BC *



    Rather than gauge the year using the annual motion of the Sun through the 12 constellations as the more recent Greeks did, the Egyptians used the first appearance of a grouping of stars (heliacal rising) every 10 days called the Decans with 5 days left over between the new year called the epagomenae. They used the brightest star Sirius as a gauge for the beginning/end of the year and observed, with the utmost exquisite conclusion, the star would skip an appearance after the fourth cycle of 365 days.


    https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/image/1811/leonidSV_1300.jpg


    This is the basis of the present calendar system where the 1461 days across four years is formatted as the familiar 365/366 days system with the added day now Feb 29th. Sirius, in the image above, is the bright star below the meteor close to the dawn horizon.

    The additional adjustment which saw the Catholic Church institute a calendar correction in 1582 is a further refinement of the same observation which gives us the leap day correction only that this correction occurs over longer time periods.

    For contemporaries, the relationship between the daily motion (day/night cycle) and the yearly motion (orbital circuit) of the Earth is so much easier to appreciate as the stars transition from left (evening appearance) to right (morning appearance) of the central stationary Sun. The Earth's orbital motion provides this observation where Sirius, the annual reference for the Egyptians as a morning appearance, shows up as a dawn appearance after being lost to the glare of the Sun for a number of weeks-


    There is nothing difficult in any of this, it is working with proportions and applying them to observations as a reflection of the daily and annual motions of our planet. It is entirely new although many of the calendar principles are old, exquisite and much loved by those who truly admire human interpretation of observations.


    https://themathematicaltourist.wordpress.com/2012/10/13/the-decans-in-senenmuts-tomb/#:~:text=The%20Egyptians%20divided%20the%20stars,through%20the%20sky%20on%20ships.

    [ The existence of Egyptian Decans are much older than the Canopus decree and indeed the observation would have been known to the builders of Newgrange due to the precision of the alignment on midwinter]

    Btw, thanks Highdef although there is no such thing as the summer equinox although you probably meant Solstice.

    Post edited by Orion402 on


  • Registered Users Posts: 408 ✭✭Orion402


    There is no personal choice involved.

    The daily and orbital traits of the planet determine midday and midsummer so there is no human choice involved unless people are determined to avoid looking at the consistent reasoning where temperatures rise after 12 noon and the June 21st Solstice as a function of this determination.

    The idea of astronomical summer as opposed to meteorological summer is worse than unhelpful as it exposes intellectual pretense at its worst and exceptionally disruptive for appreciating planetary climate which adds planetary inclination along with the surface rotations to the orbital plane as the primary driver of climate.

    Post edited by Orion402 on


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,237 ✭✭✭highdef


    Boards.ie is a forum for discussion. Sometimes an individual will be looking for the answer to a question. Other times, a person may raise a topic and a discussion may ensue. There may be differing opinions on the subject matter however the debates are (usually) well respected.

    Your discussion about the season of summer, including the definition and timeframe of it, is an excellent example where there is great potential for debate as there are quite a few variations depending on science, legacy beliefs, astronomy or just personal opinion.

    You, on the other hand, have stated what YOU believe is what summer is and when it occurs. You say that there is no personal choice involved regarding this matter. This is simply untrue. What you are posting here is what you believe to be correct, it's your personal choice to believe it.

    I've an interest in meteorology. The seasons play a huge part in meteorology. For me and many many others, the season of summer is associated with the warmest quarter of the year and the flora in full bloom. For the purposes of record keeping, it's extremely important to keep those quarters as close as possible to begin and end at the same time every year and beginning a given season on the 1st of a month makes things a bit easier. Winter begins on the 1st of December in the meteorological calendar. The three winter months are also the three coldest months (most of the time). As my seasons are weather based, it makes complete sense to me, to associate those three months as being the months of winter.

    "The daily and orbital traits of the planet determine midday and midsummer so there is no human choice involved unless people are determined to avoid looking at the consistent reasoning where temperatures rise after 12 noon and the June 21st Solstice as a function of this determination." I'm not sure if it's just how you word this but I actually cannot determine what point you're trying to make, if any. Most people know that on a sunny summer's day, the warmest period of the day is often in the late afternoon or early evening. A lot of people will know that it is because objects to continue to absorb the radiation from the sun through the afternoon. Also be aware that during the summer, we observe Irish Standard Time. This, combined with our distance West of Greenwich mean that solar noon usually occurs around 13:30, give our take about 30 minutes or so.

    Other people and groups have differing opinions regarding how they interpret the seasons and if you listen as to why they believe what they believe, it generally makes sense to the listener.

    In short, stop being so condescending with your posts. I'm in no way saying that what you say is untrue however it's that you are saying that everyone who doesn't agree with what you say is fundamentally wrong is where the issue lies.



  • Registered Users Posts: 408 ✭✭Orion402


    This is an information sharing exercise and that is the only personal choice I give myself (as a Christian) so all other matters are technical and follow basic rules-of-the-road consistency. If temperatures rise after 12 noon as the planet turns, then there is no need to imply meteorological noon as opposed to astronomical noon for the 24 hour day and likewise after the June 21st Solstice so it is the planet that dictates seasonal points based on the Equinoxes, Solstices and the motions that represent those annual points in the calendar. More importantly, it is a gateway to considering planetary climate from the perspective of planetary dynamics which has been in a mess for 250+ years and largely a reflection of unresolved issues going back to the time of Copernicus.


    Astronomy and timekeeping has always been a part of the Irish culture and yesterday, as I was in Strandhill, Sligo, I visited Listoghil where there is a 3 month alignment with one around the start of November and one at the beginning of February with the midwinter Solstice dividing these periods.



    According to the guide at the visitors centre, the witch captures the Sun at Samhain (November) and releases it on Imbolc (February) with distant markers on the Ox mountains seen from the entrance of Listoghil. Who can not love these exceptionally old reminders of people who were more in tune with daily and seasonal life and there is no doubt that it existed all over Northern Europe at latitudes similar to ours. We were fortunate as our society held these monuments sacred even if took the nature of myth hence they survived on this island.


    The contribution to this topic should be a lot more expansive and not restricted to people giving themselves choices they do not have as it is at variance with the links between planetary dynamics, planetary temperatures and the rise and fall in those temperatures daily and seasonally. Some of the principles are entirely new such as the expanding and contracting circles with the North/South poles at their centre where the Sun remains constantly in view or out of sight as a reflection of rotation emerging from the Earth's orbital motion.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,473 ✭✭✭✭M.T. Cranium


    It's no concern of mine what another person thinks to be summer, but saying that summer is May, June and July would definitely be a minority opinion nowadays, perhaps not further back in history. Where I live it would also be seen as somewhat ridiculous as the snow continues to recede up the hillsides and was still falling as of this afternoon, something that it would never do in August or the first half of September around here. Almost everyone I know would say summer was late June to mid September, or a season where it's comfortably warm, the water is warm enough for swimming, and the average temperatures are higher than either before or after, however, we can get spells of summer-like weather in May and early June too, so the seasonal boundaries are somewhat indistinct.

    However to repeat one point I made in an earlier tome of excessive length, if you want to define summer as the warmest quarter of the year, then as luck or fate would have it, the traditionalists (astronomical summer) and the modernists (meteorological summer) have just about equal bragging rights since 12 June to 12 September would about "nail" the paradigm of summer as warmest three months. That appears to be true for most locations away from moderating influences of oceans and seas, it might shift a bit earlier in the desert southwest and a bit later in some parts of the world with slight maritime climate influences.

    You could also look at length of daylight and then summer's three optimal months would lie between 6 May and 6 August (approximately). That gets quite close to the older concept that Orion402 was mentioning.

    One final thought is that there is no particular fundamental reason for there to be four seasons, or four equally long seasons. And some climates recognize much different boundaries, for example, those with dry and wet seasons (some have two of each as well). In parts of eastern Canada winter is definitely longer than a quarter of the year and spring is quite short. In Ireland there is hardly anything wintry at all in many so-called winters, and it's only the short duration of daylight that really separates the months by seasons. However if there is going to be wintry weather in Ireland, it's most likely to fall between mid-December and mid-March similar to the astronomical season, although it could be as early as October or as late as May in extreme cases.

    I don't expect to have much if any say over the calendar of the future but if we just declared the first twelve days of some future year to be an extension of the previous year, then went from there, then we could drop astronomical seasons and go with the meteorological seasons as presently described, and the fit would be as good as it could get as far as matching up temperatures to seasons. That would place the two solstices on or about the 9th of June and December.

    And also to repeat an earlier point, one of the points which tends to support Orion's view is that the phrases "midsummer" and "midwinter" have been generally associated with the solstices which would only be mid-season if the seasons started a lot earlier than either astronomical or even meteorological seasons begin. Clearly those word associations are based on the concept that seasons are determined principally by the length of daylight and not the mean temperature.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 73 ✭✭Horn_of_Africa


    In my view I consider Summer to start on 15th May and ends on 14th August. May, June and July is a lttle early for Summer in my view, and June, July, August is a little late for Summer in my view when taking into account temperature, daylight and nature. For that reason I choose mid May as the beginning of Summer.



  • Registered Users Posts: 408 ✭✭Orion402


    I well appreciate that there are contributors to this thread who wish to restrict the discussion to arguments over when summer starts. There is a disruptive recent addition which attempts to split experiences into astronomical v meteorological seasons, however, this thread is based on logical consistency between 12 noon and the June Solstice in terms of temperatures rising post noon/solstice in order to discuss planetary dynamics and planetary climate. It is not dwelling on opinions for the pros and cons of the calendar date for the beginning of summer.

    There is always a risk of over-explaining something in order to get the explanation just right in raising the standard of consideration, but it is the job of the meteorolgist to at least try to work off a stable foundation for weather and climate linked to the motions of the Earth in a Sun-centred system.

    All locations pass noon when their location is exactly midway to the dark hemisphere of the Earth as the planet turns once every 24 hours and temperature rises follow the noon event for a number of hours. The June Solstice or midsummer replicates the same feature as the daily cycle as temperatures rise for a number of weeks after the midsummer event so those who like to use temperature graphs can affirm the consistency both in terms of planetary dynamics and weather/ temperatures.

    The midsummer event involves two surface rotations of the planet acting in combination and it is here that those who argue over when the summer begins are left behind. When daily rotation and all its effects are subtracted, for example, the day/night cycle, all locations on the planet would experience a single day/night cycle (like the North/South poles presently do) as a function of the orbital motion of the Earth. This rotation is parallel to the orbital plane and can be explained using a simple analogy, if not through direct observations of time lapse from Uranus.


    The correct perspective on planetary motions as a point of departure for discussing planetary climate follows from this consistency in logic.

    Post edited by Orion402 on


  • Registered Users Posts: 313 ✭✭NedsNotDead


    There you go again with the condescension. You say you want debate but your attitude to those who disagree or question your view suggests otherwise



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,237 ✭✭✭highdef


    You seem to be trying to make your points in the most confusing manner resulting in your intended audience finding it difficult to understand you......hopefully it's not just me! I'll try reinterpret what I think you are trying to say in a very different manner and hopefully there will be some feedback here. The paragraph below is the very short two word explanation, the one after is the short explanation and the three paragraphs following that will give more detail.

    Very Short explanation: Latent heat.

    Short Explanation: In very simple terms, on any given clear day in summer on a landmass such as Ireland/UK, it is usually warmest in the late afternoon. This is due to latent heat being released by the land and objects. On any given year, mid to late summer (Late July & August) is almost always much warmer than early summer (June to mid July). Again, this is due to latent heat being released by the land and partly by the seas and oceans. Keep reading for more detail.

    Longer explanation from here on: On a clear day during summer, it's very reasonable to assume that temperatures will continue to rise beyond 12 noon. Today, for example, solar noon was at 13:21 IST in Dublin. So at 12:00 it would still be nearly 90 minutes more before the sun even reached the highest point in the sky. As your earlier graph depicted, on any given sunny day, different objects on the earth's surface absorb differing amounts of radiation from the sun. In the visible part of the spectrum (what us humans can see), darker objects tend to absorb most radiation. This is then released over time in the afternoon and evening, meaning late afternoon/early evening can often be the warmest part of the day. This effect can be observed more so in urban areas where there are vast amount of surfaces/objects that store the heat well into the evening and can result in temperatures in urban areas being several degrees warmer than rural areas during the summer months especially. This can be seen most notably during night time hours, when it is usually calm even at coastal locations during high pressure scenarios.

    Similarly, whilst the land heats and cools relatively quickly, the seas and oceans take a lot longer. However, heat builds up deeper and deeper in the landmasses through the summer months so by the time we reach late summer in August, there is lot of latent heat in the land meaning that it's often one of the warmest months of the year, if not the warmest. The even greater latency of the oceans ensures that many coastal areas and not so big islands stay relatively mild well into autumn and often into early winter, especially places that have a warm ocean current nearby, for greatest benefit. This means that for places such as Ireland, you're far more likely to encounter snowfall during the first month of meteorological Spring (March.....don't want anyone to encounter any confusion) than you are to encounter it in December (first month of meteorological Winter).

    All that I have said is focused mainly on Ireland and the UK, mainly because I have good knowledge and experience of this area for obvious reasons. Out at sea, there is usually very little temperature difference over a 24 period, something that you have not mentioned at all. Your temperatures rising after 12 noon spiel (I still thing you actually mean solar noon as this would make more sense to the point you are trying to make) does not usually apply to most of planet Earth as most of planet Earth is water, yet you've not made any reference to the majority of the earth's surface.

    Despite everything that you have said, at the end of the day, you are discussing latent heat......simple as. There really is nothing more to it than that.......things absorb radiation from the sun at various levels and it's then released again at a later time. It's fairly basic science.



  • Registered Users Posts: 408 ✭✭Orion402


    "You seem to be trying to make your points in the most confusing manner resulting in your intended audience finding it difficult to understand you."

    What did I tell you before about information sharing in case you are confused. If you want another researcher to remind you what that is then try Galileo- " You cannot teach a person anything, you can only help them to find it within themselves"

    I admit that I have no interest in contributors who cannot discuss the links between planetary dynamics and temperature fluctuations so I thank you for your comments on latent heat, but it might interest those who think midsummer is a personal choice and things like that. I am not sure if some contributors can raise their standard of consideration beyond trivial matters, whereas this topic involves not just two surface rotations, but also expressed as the expanding and contracting circles where the Sun remains in view and out of sight with the North/South poles at their centre.



    While Uranus turns parallel with its rings daily, the planet also turns around 4 1/2 degrees per Earth year parallel to the orbital plane and all planet's do including the Earth's roughly 1 degree every 24 hours. I adore what satellite imaging can do, although I can no longer post the time lapse from the NASA website.



    The first image is from 1995, the second 2007 and the third 2019 so the only thing that is missing is the dark hemisphere of the planet or the side that faces away from the Sun.

    It is all for a different type of individual, no offence.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Gaoth Laidir


    Absolutely no point in taking part in this thread. Let him continue writing cryptic essays over and over, before starting up a new thread on the a different (same) topic.



  • Registered Users Posts: 408 ✭✭Orion402


    I am presently watching a correspondent on RTE piling it on with dire warnings using the modelling monstrosity where a purported 1.5 degrees rise is relative to nothing other than industrial era human guilt. It is fascinating in the same way the Nazis followed the natural selection doctrine of Darwin in their final solution of the Jews by virtue of the urgent imperatives to act based on races/racism using the Earth science of biology as a platform. The same has happened to the Earth science of climate.

    Approaching climate through planetary dynamics using consistent reasoning where midday noon equates to the Northern June 21st Solstice in terms of daily and seasonal temperature rises is one of the functions of planetary climate stands in contrast to those who would impose the disruptive notion of astronomical and meteorological seasons, after all, what could be more absurd that astronomical noon and meteorological noon.

    There are enough descriptions in this thread for more reasonable and reasoning individuals to find a foundation for genuine planetary climate and especially the use of two distinct surface rotations where there is an expanding and contracting surface areas with the Sun in view or out of sight with the North/South poles at their centre. The surface where the Sun remains in view is expanding in the Northern hemisphere while the area where the Sun remains out of view is also expanding in the Southern hemisphere.

    I don't mind those who are content with their limited views, however, there are always individuals who will never be satisfied with deficient perspectives in an era full of imaging, time lapse, graphics and so on.



  • Registered Users Posts: 313 ✭✭NedsNotDead


    So now you're comparing people who don't agree with you to the Nazi's.

    OK. I think you're getting a little desperate now



  • Registered Users Posts: 408 ✭✭Orion402


    The Victorian doctrine of natural selection is based on the notion that the human race/humanity can be partitioned into favoured/less favoured 'races'. It borrowed from the 1840's event in Ireland and applied to the Earth science of biology as a law of nature-

    "One day something brought to my recollection Malthus's "Principles of Population," which I had read about twelve years before. I thought of his clear exposition of "the positive checks to increase"--disease, accidents, war, and famine--which keep down the population of savage races to so much lower an average than that of civilized peoples. It then occurred to me that these causes or their equivalents are continually acting in the case of animals also..... because in every generation the inferior would inevitably be killed off and the superior would remain--that is, the fittest would survive.... The more I thought over it the more I became convinced that I had at length found the long-sought-for law of nature that solved the problem of the Origin of Species. " Alfred Russel Wallace, 1858


    So, this is not the first time an academic monstrosity was dumped on society and natural selection is still celebrated despite sharing the same paragraph as the final solution of the Jews-


    " In the course of the final solution the Jews are to be allocated for appropriate labor in the East. Able-bodied Jews, separated according to sex, will be taken in large work columns to these areas for work on roads, in the course of which action doubtless a large portion will be eliminated by natural causes. The possible final remnant will, since it will undoubtedly consist of the most resistant portion, have to be treated accordingly, because it is the product of natural selection and would, if released, act as the seed of a new Jewish revival." Wannsee Conference, 1942



    I see society once again subject to the bliss of an academic monstrosity, but this time visited on the Earth science of climate. The more reasonable should re-read what I wrote how it links to the topic of meteorology and climate.

    Post edited by Orion402 on


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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,050 ✭✭✭OldRio


    Why is a raven like a writing desk?



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