Bealtaine festival and first day of summer

Orion402

"Why do I need to appreciate that the Earth has two separate rotations to the Sun? What is the benefit to me by appreciating that?"

You could just as well say there is no benefit to you that the Earth moves at all in terms of weather, however, I do know where you are coming from as I read your information sharing comments where you discuss current conditions at your location. The charts and graphs are flat projections of the North Atlantic so I appreciate the relationship of high/low pressures to each other and the nature of the Jetstream among other factors in short term weather, however, there is also cyclical weather for those who recognise the Earth is rotating in two separate ways to the Sun.

Teaching students about the surface rotation where there is a single sunrise and sunset every year with noon on the Sosltices at the North/South poles is fairly straightforward.

Tell them their body represents the Earth with the floor equivalent to the orbital plane. Their nose represents where the North pole is relative to the Sun and orbital plane. Ask them to walk/orbit around an object representing the central Sun while keeping their nose pointing in the same direction at all times imitating the Earth's constant orientation to the stars-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYy0EQBnqHI

They will soon discover they have to walk forwards, then sideways, then backwards, then sideways before returning to face forwards again. This demonstrates that at one time or another that, just as different parts of the body face the central object, the same goes for the body/surface of the Earth as it turns parallel to the orbital plane and to the Sun.

Previously, this perspective was blocked by axial precession as an unsatisfactory way to explain the Precession of the Equinoxes so this is freeing up information for a more productive and creative way to approach cyclical weather and planetary climate.

Gaoth Laidir

Anything but answer the question that was asked. Unbelievable levels of nonsense.

Orion402

The time lapse affirming that all planets, including our home planet, turns in two distinct ways to the Sun and responsible for cyclical weather (The Seasons) is there to be enjoyed as a visual fact insofar as all facts are visible.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=612gSZsplpE

The moons of Uranus follow the giant planet's daily rotation close to the Equatorial rings and equivalent to the Earth's Equator. As Uranus orbits the central Sun in the same way as the Earth with its polar latitude fixed to the same point in space, as the time lapse speeds up between 1994 and 1998 about 40 seconds in, the orbital surface rotation emerges clearly.

This is why axial precession as a solution for the Precession of the Equinoxes needs to be replaced with a satisfying solution based on the proportion of rotations to orbital circuits by inspecting the original framework through which that proportion is determined. The reconfiguration of observations is necessary to appreciate seasonal weather before moving on to proper planetary climate research.

It is also fun for those who make the small effort.

Orion402

Seeing the other thread has dissolved into pictures of livestock and the usual culprits doing their level best to dislike each other, better to draw attention to the event ending the 3 month season of summer has arrived with Lughnasadh-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lughnasadh

The ancient calendar goes back to neolithic times to the beginning of the New Year on Samhain (November in our present calendar) as the Sun moves lower in the horizon towards the December Solstice and 3 months later is marked by the return of life on Imbolc (around the beginning of February). The alignment at Carrowmore, Sligo contains these seasonal milestones-

http://www.carrowkeel.com/sites/carrowmore/c51b.html

Just as temperatures lag astronomical noon for a number of hours into the evening then so do temperatures lag the June Solstice into September when the onset of the darker and colder period is felt more acutely.

Others may look for points, but our heritage is also woven into our arts, our festivals and all the cultural events we celebrate as milestones in our planet's journey around the Sun.

highdef

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119407712#Comment_119407712

Will you and feck off to a section of Boards that is more in tune with your subject matter such as https://www.boards.ie/categories/christianity ?

This is meteorology forum and is more in tune with science. We've over a month of meteorological summer to go. Piss off to somewhere in Boards that will perhaps enjoy your subject matter.

Mods, seriously, can we remove this poster from this section of boards, please? Christianity/astronomy/etc is where this non meteorological nonsense needs to. The poster is taking the piss at this stage.

Cheers and thank you in advance for finally taking some action.

Orion402

Summer is both an astronomical term and a meteorological term just as planetary dynamics is related to planetary climate. Natural noon and midsummer share the same features even though midsummer is a combination of two surface rotations acting together to create the seasons and their arbitrary division into four components of Spring, Summer, Autumn, Winter.

The dynamics which create midsummer on the Solstice also follow the daily noon cycle in response of temperatures after the seasonal event as they lag the longest stretch between sunrise and sunset with noon/June Solstice as the midpoint.

If people choose to believe there is a meteorological summer vs astronomical summer, then have a ball as they are unlikely to appreciate how dynamics and temperature fluctuations across the seasons are connected to the motions of the Earth just as the daily cycle is. I see meteorological summer as an indulgence, however, it really doesn't help in relating planetary dynamics to planetary climate.

highdef

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119408208#Comment_119408208

Different strokes for different folks, the issue being the folks in this section of Boards tend to have summer as June to August, inclusive. You have a differing opinion which is fair enough but to harp on about your belief has got to the point of being condescending to many here including myself.

If I were to begin spouting my atheist beliefs in the Christianity section of Boards, I'd must likely be banned fairly quickly. Same if I had strong Christian beliefs and tried to instill those in the atheist section of Boards.

Mods, can someone please take action? This is turning into a **** joke.

Danno

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119254011#Comment_119254011

Conversely, summer full moons will sink ever lower and by summers of 2023 to 2025, you'll be looking at June and July full moons lower by 5 deg than the 21 Dec sun's mid-day position. In the far north of Ireland that will mean the winter full moons will only barely clear the horizon especially in hilly areas.

Very interesting MTC! I note from your past postings that you put a fair bit of weight into the moon's influence on the earth's weather as the atmosphere gets tugged in a similar but a less dramatic sense to our seas - i.e. tides.

So, with a higher northern moon rise - will we see an even more "wavy jet" in the next half decade as deeper lows track more northerly - my interpretation of the effects!

Danno

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119408208#Comment_119408208

Okay, I'll bite! I've resisted responding to pretty much all of your postings over the last three years in order not to inflame tensions! You're fairly bang-on in your scientific statements, however those statements are delivered in a quite a condescending way - which is most unfortunate!

Pretty much everything you say in your opening arguments about our earth's motions are indisputable - but you then trade intellectual insults against all-a-sundry thereafter. I know who you are through a mutual friend, we don't know each other directly. Our mutual friend speaks of you quite highly, but you're not the type of person I could engage in insightful conversation over a clatter of pints - which is most unfortunate - because you're highly intellectual. MTC on the other hand, I'd rock up a barstool and pay his beer tab for the night - that's an invitation @M.T. Cranium by-the-way!

As for the old astronomical summer-v-meteorological summer you attest to in your postings, it's a simple observation of weather trends we experience at this location of the planet - our seas naturally store late-spring (depending on your definition) heat and release this slowly over the proceeding months meaning that on average our temperatures in August are warmer than those in May despite lower sunlight/daylight hours.

This extra heat above sunlight hours then gets balanced through usual October and November storms as the colder air from the arctic digs further south than it did in the months before. All of this is basic seasonality - and is associated with the background planetary motions you allude to.

I think you could possibly offer more to these conversations than getting stuck in the mud on a self pre-disposition thought that others engaging on here "just don't understand" your own POV. Move on, offer more, or please stop.

Orion402

No offence with the notion that all this could be discussed over pints, in the gym or over a coffee, however, it is an entirely new approach and really only suitable for this forum as all the explanations use visual data so only with the emergence of the internet, can all the components be laid out before interested readers.

I actually understand how unbearable it must be for some readers in this forum and how their pleas for moderation are genuine because I also protect those close to me from any involvement with topics I know all too well are unsuitable for them while I have little interest in the academic community who have their own thing going. This would leave a small audience who have a more balanced approach yet have realised very quickly they have little to gain by supporting in public what they probably easily understand in private and I am okay with that.

Getting others to admire what I do is far removed from trying to convince people they are wrong or trying to project myself as superior in some way because it is a very Christian sentiment that while we are adoring participants in nature, creation is part of us but does not belong to us. To believe in human control over weather/temperatures is the opposite of this natural appreciation and what is really a gift to be enjoyed and not misused-

" Above all the graces and all the gifts of the Holy Spirit which Christ grants to his friends, is the grace of overcoming oneself, and accepting willingly, out of love for Christ, all suffering, injury, discomfort and contempt; for in all other gifts of God we cannot glory, seeing they proceed not from ourselves but from God" St Francis of Assisi

It is the ability to interpret what is in front of us rather than project what is ahead of us that counts and readers can make this as simple or complex as they wish depending on the effort they make.

Esel

Seriously, mods?

M.T. Cranium

Danno, your conjecture is actually similar to what well-known mid-20th century climatologist Reid Bryson surmised, at maximum lunar declination range, larger amplitude waves are produced and that leads to larger temperature anomalies. What I found in my research backed that up, and also showed these background trends:

1. Around the time of minimum declination range, the polar jet tends to compress, around years 8-9 of the cycle mild winters often occur, by years 10-14 the buildup of arctic air seems to overcome that and produce a relative peak in cold winters in mid-latitude climates. Then you go into the higher declination years (15 to 18) and a peak in blocking tendencies. I would have to stress that these are relatively small signals that indicate background tendencies rather than claiming some major lunar signal.
2. Another fairly evident signal is that a peak of warmth occurs around 4-6 years after the declination peak events. I interpreted that as possibly the smoothing out of the large amplitude waves allowing warm oceanic air to dominate winters.

Orion402

My turn.

From experience, Irish contributors are not so much ashamed of their heritage, but have adopted a recent subculture inherited from a period in English history where experimentation and predictive conclusions took priority over interpretation and I see the dismaying results here day in and day out when it comes to the Earth science of climate which includes cyclical weather.

The foundations of cyclical weather is missing from the standpoint of the motions of the Earth where such things as hurricane season is replaced by Arctic sea ice development as temperatures fluctuate North and South and back again as more surface area is exposed to solar radiation or where it become less as we now move towards the September Equinox and on to the December Solstice.

Tomorrow is Lughnasadh when the North pole is half way on its journey to the dark hemisphere of the Earth and where on the September Equinox it turns into the dark hemisphere for 6 months-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Space_Climate_Observatory#/media/File:EpicEarth-Globespin-tilt-23.4.gif

The North and South poles turn 16,000 km over the course of an orbital circuit in respect to the Sun so the physical distance of the North pole to the planetary divisor is about 2,000 km to the September Equinox from its position on the June Solstice and 6,000 km when its position will be farthest from the Sun on the December Solstice.

The fact is that the North pole will be closer to the Sun on the June Solstice and farthest on the December Solstice as a function of a single surface rotation as a function of the orbital motion of the planet. The fact that it takes two surface rotations to explain major seasonal events and from there into climate research is built not only on visible affirmations by satellites but also the timekeeping and astronomical heritage of this island and those who are not afraid of that island treasure.

Gaoth Laidir

The mods are gone awol. Let's trash the place!

Esel

What's the weather like where you are?

Gaoth Laidir

Well my location has rotated to the dark side on its daily rotation, however I'm no further on on my cyclical rotation about the celestial body that is our Sun

Sun - Wikipedia

The Sun is the star at the center of the Solar System. It is a nearly perfect ball of hot plasma,[18][19] heated to incandescence by nuclear fusion reactions in its core, radiating the energy mainly as light, ultraviolet, and infrared radiation. It is the most important source of energy for life on Earth.

than you are. Today's internet numpties are unable to grasp the concept about which I have so much to say.

Orion402

Welcome to autumn for those readers who still have some connection to the ancient heritage of this island.

As the North poles turns towards the dark hemisphere of the Earth, the radius shrinks to the planet's divisor where the Sun remains constantly in view so places like Hammerfest in Northern Norway are seeing their first sunrise and sunset for a number of months insofar as the entire surface of the Earth turns parallel to the orbital plane as a function of the orbital motion of the Earth and entirely separate to daily rotation-

https://dateandtime.info/citysunrisesunset.php?id=779683&month=7&year=2022

I deal with the issues at the level of Copernicus, Kepler and Galileo insofar as they did not possess sufficient observational data we have in the 21st century to arrive at a complete picture, so it is fairly straightforward to adapt this imaging to conclusions where cause and effect are involved, including cyclical weather and as a gateway into proper climate research.

In conclusion, this forum is no sewer and the participants normally supply really enjoyable and useful information in matters of upcoming meteorological events, however, a group within that community have overreached into the Earth science of climate by failing to adopt the proper principles which connect planetary dynamics to planetary climate along with the errors and vandalism inherited from the late 17th century experimental subculture. The original Sun-centred researchers only suffered from a lack of visual data and therefore are to be admired rather than vandalised as later empirical modellers did to their methods and conclusions.

Contributors here must take some responsibility, after all, weather predictions do not morph into climate predictions.

Orion402

" Broadly speaking, Earth completes one full turn on its axis every 24 hours. That single spin marks out a day and drives the cycle of sunrise and sunset that has shaped patterns of life for billions of years."

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2022/aug/01/midnight-sooner-earth-spins-faster-shortest-day

I always find it remarkable that less than careful people always find a way to mess things up by conjuring up new monstrosities to disguise the older ones like the old 'fact' that the planet didn't turn in 24 hours with one more rotation than there are 24 hour days in a year-

https://hypertextbook.com/facts/1999/JennyChen.shtml

The utter disregard for planetary dynamics and its relationship to both Earth sciences and timekeeping is the reason why society faces an assault every evening as the latest flood reports or wildfires are used to promote climate change modelling. There is a reason why the stable reasoning of our ancestors, even in remote antiquity, places the divisions of the seasons where they actually exist as the planetary milestones of motion and position to the Sun provide the basis for seasonal fluctuations in temperatures. Muddying the picture by introducing an unnecessary term is also why planetary dynamics never makes an appearance in matters of climate, not even at the most basic level of cyclical weather.

Orion402

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119410048#Comment_119410048

My goodness, this thread was designed to call attention to a great deal of solar system, planetary dynamics and timekeeping research spread across the ages, so it is there for others to enjoy why our ancestors on this island chose to break the year into two halves (light/dark half) or the four divisions of Samhain, Imbolc, Bealtaine and Lughnasadh and their close proximity to our calendar divisions. I know all too well that contributors who are not familiar with the dynamics which connect to the seasons nor the Earth science of climate will try to introduce inappropriate issues which are designed to throw people off. So be it.

Before the awful vandalism Isaac Newton visited on solar system and Earth science research, there were easily readable observations of cause and effect linking the most sensitive responses of tidal flows with the cyclical dynamics which created the fluctuations in tidal levels. Nobody appreciates the correspondence of John Wallis to Robert Boyle in 1666 more in this respect as it brings up issues that were never resolved and more or less written out of history to make way for the drudgery of the Principia-

https://archive.org/details/philtrans09092912

There is so much information contained in that work that it would take many comments to cover all the individual parts, however, I resolved the cause of the natural noon variations in context to the average 24 hour day once known as the Inequalities of Natural Days (Page 16) as the main feature of tidal variations.

WJL

It's a lovely day here. Whatever the season.

Do England, Scotland and Wales, the other countries in the so called British Isles, consider August as summer because it occurs in meteorological summer?

Orion402

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119420198#Comment_119420198

The introduction of an invalid term called the 'sidereal day' led to the loss of the main fact that connects one rotation to one 24 hour sunrise/noon/sunset cycle-

https://hypertextbook.com/facts/1999/JennyChen.shtml

They are now attempting to walk back that awful train wreck but can't do it because they do not know or cannot follow the proper principles which make the 24 hour day the only acceptable timekeeping designation along with equal hours, minutes and seconds determined from specific cyclical observations.

Meteorological seasons are just another disruptive indulgence by people who lack the type of discipline needed to relate the seasonal cycle with the underlying planetary dynamics. If it was a matter that these people could understand how planetary dynamics is crucial for planetary climate research, they could have their childish meteorological seasons but as it stands, meteorological seasons are as real for them as planetary dynamics behind the seasons are not.

WJL

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119420287#Comment_119420287

I'm not an expert on astronomy. I understand the basics of the planetary rotations, which cause our seasons. The effect of the tilt of the earth's axis also.

One thing puzzles me. You're a Christian, as am I. I don't understand why you make such reference to Lugnasa (pagan God Lugh), Bealtaine and so on. Pagan observance isn't Christian.

I know All Saints was tied in with Samhain and Christmas with a mid winter festival after the arrival of Christianity. But you refer far more to pagan times and culture than is Christian.

Anita22

The earth isn't the only thing spinning. My head is after reading the last 4 pages.

Orion402

" I'm not an expert on astronomy. I understand the basics of the planetary rotations, which cause our seasons."

Be my guest and demonstrate the basics.

Orion402

Some parts of the calendar and its divisions belong to the Romans while many of the seasonal milestones were adapted from the culture of this island with the beginning of the New Year on Samhain where life begins in the darkness of a new cycle just as life begins in the womb in darkness-

http://www.webexhibits.org/calendars/year-text-Plutarch.html

Imbolc, St Brigid's day, Februarius share the same feminine meaning insofar as Imbolc means 'Seeds of the mother' and the beginning of Spring as nature stirs from its dormancy which began in November.

The Christians adapted their festivals to the old system and heritage of this island based on the cycles of the Earth. They even adapted the arrival of St Patrick in 432 AD to align with the old 432 year timekeeping cycles just as the Hebrews adopted the Babylonian flood chronologies into their heritage for those who care to look. I would dearly like to post the website, however, I can no longer post certain websites on this forum due to moderation restrictions.

There are no pagans for this Christian, I see the gorgeous development of different societies across the ages and most if not all had a healthy respect for the timekeeping cycles and especially the cycles arising from the motions of the planet. Christianity once had a remarkably productive heritage, including the designation of Easter after the Spring Equinox in March where they were so careful that they restored the drift in the calendar towards summer and the omission of 10 days from the calendar in 1582.

Only this era lacks discipline and respect for older and more stable societies and why they reasoned as they did.

M.T. Cranium

The concept of sidereal day is not invalid, but it has nothing to do with the designation of seasons. The seasons can have whatever boundaries people choose to accept, there is nothing really to separate any of the concepts advanced, whether it might be the traditional Irish seasons or the meteorological three-month clusters or the older astronomical seasons. None of them happens to overlap the warmest and coldest quarters of the year which run in most temperate mid-latitude climates from about mid-June to mid-September and then from mid-December to mid-March. The old concept of astronomical seasons comes a bit closer than the new "meteorological seasons" although only by a day or two. The Irish traditional concept, as far as I can tell, is based more on length of day than temperature. But I am not here to criticize it, as I say, I don't see any absolute justification for any system, you can choose any of the three or use my fourth optimal temperature model which would run something like winter 13 Dec to 12 Mar, spring 13 Mar to 12 June, summer 13 June to 12 September, autumn 13 September to 12 December.

Orion402 seems to believe that sidereal day is an invalid concept. The only validity it has would relate to astronomy, not any part of meteorology, climatology or weather sciences broadly defined. I would be willing to bet that nine tenths of meteorologists would not be able to give an accurate explanation of sidereal day. However, if an intelligent alien race could see earth in orbit around our Sun, they would note that our planet turned 366.25 times (approximately) each orbital cycle. They would know that if any intelligent life existed on that planet, they would observe one fewer rotation relative to their star, so they would know that those life forms measured a year of 365.25 days.

That's all this is about, really. It has nothing to do with weather, seasons or anything much at all. There is no train wreck or massive error, and it never had any influence on meteorology.

M.T. Cranium

If you don't think sidereal day is valid, try this ... the bright red star Antares can presently be seen low in the southern sky around 11 p.m. when it gets fully dark out nowadays. Find a spot where Antares disappears to the right behind a building or a tree trunk or a pole and get the exact time. Then go back the next day and see what time it does that. You'll find it will be four minutes earlier (per day if you have to wait more than one day due to cloud).

If you can invalidate that then you can claim sidereal time is invalid.

(If you try this with a bright planet like Jupiter or Mars, they are moving so the differential might be closer to four minutes ten seconds than three minutes 56 seconds which should be the exact sidereal result for a fixed star, and of course the moon cannot be used because its relative motion is considerable and it will go behind obstructions at later times by about one hour, and sometimes at different angles of approach as a result of its orbital motion).

I will post my observations of Antares here the next two nights I can time an event. I don't think that in a science forum we should tolerate having somebody claiming a scientific concept is invalid without offering proof. So I will offer proof of the validity of the concept. All you have to do is to replicate my experiment and you'll see the proof too.

Similar logic applies to rising and setting times of prominent stars. Unless you live in a very remote rural area though, it is difficult to find good observation points for rising and setting of stars. Timing a transit (the point where an object moves through due south) is easier. The road grid in my home town is pretty much north-south east-west so I can easily find a nearby location where Antares will be very easy to observe at transit and there will be obstructions for it to disappear behind.

Gaoth Laidir

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119421030#Comment_119421030

I'm currently at 40.6N 8.3E and pretty much guaranteed clear skies every night. Antares is relatively higher up in the sky here. I've referenced it now at 19:50Z and will check it again tomorrow night. Anything to put an end to this nonsense.

Orion402

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119420981#Comment_119420981

It is not possible to reason with those unfortunate people who cannot link one rotation with one sunrise/noon/sunset cycle every 24 hours no more than it is to reason with a flat Earth proponent and their contrived logic. If they have a loyal following in this forum then contributors should consider the limitations of their contributions to short term weather predictions where planetary dynamics are not required.

Foolish people don't have the patience to appreciate that the 24 hour day is created first and foremost in order to create the sub-divisions of equable hours, minutes and seconds. Clocks and watches don't grow on trees, they are derived from very old principles where 24 hour clock noon is anchored to natural noon within the sunrise/noon/sunset cycle. It is because the 24 hour day is an average, it permitted those who navigated the seas to consider daily rotation as constant at a rate of 4 minutes for each degree of rotation, 15 degrees per hour and once in 24 hours via the Lat/Long system.

The late 17th century English vandalised the principles which create the average 24 hour day by attempting to link the 24 hour clock directly to the daily change in the position of the stars instead of its normal anchor in the central noon Sun. They did this because it allowed them more accurate predictions within the 365/366 day calendar framework so they could give not only the date of an event but the exact time of the event. This eventually became known as the clockwork solar system, but it is an extension of the 1461 rotations/days and 4 years/orbital circuits calendar cycle. This reduces to the more familiar 365 1/4 days/rotations for 1 orbital circuit and should be a treasure for those who appreciate both timekeeping and the planetary cycles where the 24 hours of Wednesday follow the 24 hours of Tuesday and continuing on that way as the planet turns once every 24 hour day.

One contributor said he would discuss the issues over pints of beer, but in truth, it would take dedicated researchers a number of months or years to recover what was lost, including the links between timekeeping cycles and planetary cycles in order to straighten out the principles of planetary dynamics linked to the seasons and on to planetary climate research.

It is unlikely that other contributors would act to recover the basic cause and effect where the Sun rises and sets once in response to one rotation every 24 hours while the unfortunate 'sidereal day' proponents force themselves to believe the planet turns once more often than 24 hour days in a year.

M.T. Cranium

You can say what you want but we are watching the sidereal day effect from two different locations. I timed the disappearance of Antares behind a pole at 10:24 p.m. PDT and marked an exact location where this happened when the timepiece being used turned over from 10:23 to 10:24. I will be out there at 10:19 p.m. tomorrow evening to confirm the existence of sidereal day. My further plan after that is to post the details, wait 24 more hours for an apology, and if I don't get one, the poster will go on ignore and I will avoid all threads started by him. It's that basic, either deal with facts or find a different part of Boards where they don't care about facts perhaps.

The fact that we can understand and track sidereal day does not mean or imply that we cannot understand the Sun-centered 24 hour day. I have no idea why a person as obviously intelligent as yourself would draw that conclusion? It is like saying, I follow Liverpool, when I tune in a game between Man U and Man City, I cannot understand what is going on. Is a goal the same as if Liverpool scores one? Who would be that daft?

GL, I expect the tlme differential to be around 3 min 56 sec per day. (not 4 min 4 sec, the sidereal day is 23h 56m 4s). It may be very slightly different due to orbital motion second order issues.

The fact that we are using the word day is a sort of Las Vegas obvious tell that we understand the two DIFFERENT PARADIGMS.

Orion402

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119422243#Comment_119422243

There is no reason to throw good information after bad no more than there is a reason to contend with a flat Earth proponent, however, for those who can reason properly, there is another daily change in the position of the stars as a demonstration that the Earth moves through space and around our parent central star-

https://sol24.net/data/html/SOHO/C3/96H/VIDEO/

The foreground reference is the central Sun so as the Earth moves through space, stars close to the orbital plane which appear to the left (evening appearance) of the Sun are lost to the glare of the Sun for a number of weeks before reappearing to the right of the Sun (morning appearance) as the Earth continues its journey. The satellite imaging above is free from daily rotational influences so observers get to see the annual change in position of the stars as a demonstration that the Earth moves rather than the Sun moves through the constellations.

You have a loyal following in this forum and it is to your advantage that you discard the belief that there are more rotations of the planet than there are 24 hour days in a year through the contrived reasoning that introduced a silly 'sidereal day' to muddy the only valid concept of the 24 hour day which gives us equal hours, minutes and seconds. The result of 'sidereal day' modelling is terrible as they assign a pivoting light/dark hemispheres off the Earth's rotational Equator and the planet with a zero degree inclination to explain the seasons and that is offensive for anyone in the 21st century-

https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap210922.html#:~:text=Today%20is%20an%20equinox%20on,the%20north%20and%20south%20poles.

Once again, to undo the damage and create a foundation for the links between planetary dynamics and planetary climate is not going to be done over beers but neither is it an exercise in pulling teeth.

WJL

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119422287#Comment_119422287

Have you published your work Orion?

Gaoth Laidir

Just to throw a cat among the pigeons. Fuel to the fire, if you will...

https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/environment/a40773059/shortest-day-on-earth/

Orion402

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119424338#Comment_119424338

There are many reasons why the material is presently suitable for an open forum rather than publishing it in written form in an era where few, if any, even accept that one sunrise/noon/sunset equates to one rotation of the planet every 24 hours.

The forum's icon is insistent that there are more rotations than 24 hour days in a year, confirming the late 17th century misadventure with clocks, while his acolyte is buzzing around with 'leap seconds' which appears to affirm rotation once in 24 hours, but is really just another round of contrived reasoning from people who are lost to the original language of timekeeping cycles linked to planetary cycles

I am not looking for elders or peer reviewers, I am looking for those who can put the narratives together in the same dynamical form in which it appears and supplemented by the antecedent texts which are full of insights, deficiencies, discipline and vandalism depending on who is explaining things. Dismantling older and deficient perspectives much less dealing with the empirical vandalism is just as important as replacing the perspectives with contemporary imagining, however, the latter takes priority. It is therefore an exercise in restoration before new approaches take centre stage and that takes dedicated people who are careful with the perspectives we inherit.

You mentioned before about pagan and Christian, but the original Sun-centred Christian astronomers never really had that type of prejudice that our contemporaries have in their attempt to attribute everything to the Greeks-

" Of all things visible, the highest is the heaven of the fixed stars. This, I see, is doubted by nobody. But the ancient philosophers wanted to arrange the planets in accordance with the duration of the revolutions. Their principle assumes that of objects moving equally fast, those farther away seem to travel more slowly, as is proved in Euclid’s Optics. The moon revolves in the shortest period of time because, in their opinion, it runs on the smallest circle as the nearest to the earth. The highest planet, on the other hand, is Saturn, which completes the biggest circuit in the longest time. Below it is Jupiter, followed by Mars.

With regard to Venus and Mercury, however, differences of opinion are found. For, these planets do not pass through every elongation from the sun, as the other planets do. Hence Venus and Mercury are located above the sun by some authorities, like Plato’s Timaeus (38 D), but below the sun by others, like Ptolemy (Syntaxis, IX, 1) and many of the modems. Al-Bitruji places Venus above the sun, and Mercury below it." Copernicus

These folk who can't manage to interpret why the Sun rises and sets every 24 hour day are from a late 17th century subculture rather than from the astronomical community which stretches back to remote antiquity and much further back than even Copernicus knew and where many of the difficulties he outlines above are resolved.

Gaoth Laidir

Well, here are the results of the Italian jury. The first photo of Antares was taken at 22:13:55 CET (20:13:55 UTC) last night while the second was taken just now, at 22:09:42 CET. Antares is the brightest star, just above the outermost edge of the ledge. Sorry, I can't get them to rotate the way they were taken. They should be rotated 90 degrees clockwise.

22:13:55 CET yesterday

22:09:42 CET today

Orion402

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119425653#Comment_119425653

I suggest you make some effort to appreciate that your observation is only meant to check the accuracy of a watch so start about 21 minutes into the tutorial and just before John Harrison uses the same method based on stellar circumpolar motion-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oS-PmsM-6v0

The 24 hour day and therefore equable hours, minutes and seconds relies on an averaging process where 24 hour clock noon is linked to natural noon as half way between sunrise and sunset where every noon cycle is different in terms of the length of time to the next. Once you have the average 24 hour day, you can then check the accuracy of the watch by using stellar circumpolar motion as Harrison would have-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYy0EQBnqHI

More perceptive 21st century readers would know, if they knew their history, that the stars also have an annual motion with no links to daily rotation from a dynamical perspective-

https://sol24.net/data/html/SOHO/C3/96H/VIDEO/

The foundations of timekeeping is based on what are called heliacal risings where a new grouping of stars appear as a first dawn appearance at 10 day intervals with a 5 day intermission. It is this framework that determines how many days in a year and how many rotations in an orbital circuit based on a complete calendar cycle-

".. on account of the procession of the rising of Sirius by one day in the course of 4 years,.. therefore it shall be, that the year of 360 days and the 5 days added to their end, so one day shall be from this day after every 4 years added to the 5 epagomenae before the new year" Canopus Decree 238 BC

It is the most precious observation and the basis of all timekeeping that follows, up to and including the GPS system. Of course it requires people interested in history as opposed to those who try to tamper with the development of timekeeping cycles along with planetary cycles.

Gaoth Laidir

No

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119425835#Comment_119425835

I suggest you make some effort to appreciate that your observation is only meant to check the accuracy of a watch so start about 21 minutes into the tutorial and just before John Harrison uses the same method based on stellar circumpolar motion-

No.

WJL

All the talk of the sun, stars, planets has reminded me of Donovan's song of the same title as the 1972 film 🤭🤭

https://youtu.be/WRDxpmV27p8

M.T. Cranium

GL has shown photographic evidence of sidereal day. I will be out a bit later when we have darkness here, to time Antares' disappearance behind a selected obstruction using last night's observation point. I will edit in the time differential observed.

Following that, I will consider the matter terminated, and move on to reorganizing my experience of the forum in a way that makes sense to me, given the OP's refusal to engage in reasoned discussion or to admit an error evident in plain sight. Maybe he has confused sidereal day with parallax, which would be a second order variable observed while determining length of sidereal day. He might be confused and think that the parallax timing errors are supposed to be applied to 24 hours, not 23h 56m 04s. Or his "sources" may have suffered from that confusion.

I don't know but what is evident is that sidereal day is just as real as the more familiar 24 hour synodic day.

Also there was a weak suggestion that "proper motion" could account for observations that support sidereal day. That is not true, there are no stars showing enough proper motion to negate a result within one second for their own sidereal day transit timing. Proper motion of even the fastest moving background stars can only be seen over many centuries of observation.

I don't mind people holding different opinions about matters which are largely based on opinion, but just baldly stating that there is no such thing as sidereal day and then using that to impugn character of various persons (up to and including Isaac Newton) is not only ridiculous, it is against the forum charter. I am not a big fan of censorship so I won't go blabbing to the mods about it, as I can enforce my own personal censorship and the OP can be assured that unless Antares shows up four minutes late, he's going to be hurling insults at me in a void where I am not present. If that seems like a good use of his time, then at least it's only 23 hours, 56 minutes and 4 seconds a day.

M.T. Cranium

Parallax is a second-order variable in observed sidereal day, created by the motion of the earth at right angled components to the line of sight to the object. We pass Antares around the end of May, or more technically, we pass the Sun-Antares line (this line goes under the south pole because Antares is at a negative celestial latitude, albeit a small one, small enough that the Moon can sometimes come close enough to occult the star). So by late July and early August, the earth has moved on to a point where the angle to the Sun-Antares line increases slightly every day, meaning that we see Antares in the same relative position a few seconds earlier than the average differential. The opposite would be true in April on the way in towards the alignment. That parallax will be greater for stars that are nearby to the Sun (and the earth), and smaller for very distant ones. Parallax therefore is the method by which distance of stars can be determined.

There are other second order variables that might affect timing of sidereal day. The earth is moving slower at this point in its orbit (aphelion was a month ago). That means it takes a bit less than 24.00 hours for the earth to rotate through the earth-Sun line. If the synodic day is a bit shorter, then sidereal day will also become shorter at that point in the orbit. These two effects combined may explain most of the 17 second differential between mean sidereal day and GL's timing from the past two days, although an uncertainty factor of several seconds is likely involved, to place Antares at exactly the same location in the photographic grid. It looks very close to similar in the two photos, but a picture taken 5-10 seconds later might look indistinguishable.

In any case while mean sidereal day is 23h 56m 4 sec, the "instantaneous" value of it using Antares is probably closer to what GL observed which was 23h 55m 47 sec. I'll see what my timing is later.

M.T. Cranium

Thought experiment if you don't understand the difference between synodic day and sidereal day.

You are a kid on a merry-go-round. The horses rotate in the same direction as the merry go round, but faster, so that you make nine complete rotations each time the merry go round rotates once. A "complete rotation" is when you are once again on the outer edge of the merry-go-round, assuming you got on there.

Now, you have your parents there, sidereal Dad and synodic Mom.

Sidereal Dad stands where you got on, and waits. As you go round and round, you see Dad ten times. The eleventh time you see him, is when you have arrived back at where he's standing. The average period for seeing Dad is nine seconds.

Synodic Mom walks around with you, on the outside. You see her nine times, the tenth time when she gets back to where Sidereal Dad is standing. The average time for seeing Mom is ten seconds.

The elapsed time is let's say 90 seconds, so you saw Dad every nine seconds (0, 9, 18, 27, 36, 45, 54, 63, 72, 81, 90). But you only saw Mom every ten seconds (0, 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90).

Now, imagine Sidereal Dad is Antares and Synodic Mom is some ball of light that somehow keeps pace with the earth going around the Sun, like a reflective mirror of the Sun.

And use 365.25 times for the number of times you see that ball of light. You'll see Antares one extra time. 366.25.

So sidereal day is (365.25/366.25) times the duration of synodic day. Or (1461/1465) times. It's about 0.27% shorter. 1% of a 24 hour day (1440 minutes) is 14.4 minutes. So 0.28% is about 2.88 + (0.7 x 1.44) or 2.88 + 1.01 or 3.89 minutes shorter.

Now what if Uncle Jupiter comes along and ambles 1/12 of the way around the merry-go-round. You'll see him just slightly after seeing sidereal Dad each time, and the last time if you don't get off the merry go round and the horse keeps spinning, it will take perhaps 0.8 seconds to spin far enough that you'll be pointed towards Uncle Jupiter. Therefore from his perspective, your spins are (a) a bit longer than a sidereal day but (b) a lot shorter than the synodic day. Uncle Jupiter would say you were spinning every (90.8/10) seconds or every 9.08 seconds. Cousin Mars is a bit faster and is half way round by the time you're done. You'd be seeing cousin Mars every 9.5 seconds, in fact, if you went around a second time, he would have completed one walk round, so you would have spun 19 times from his point of view, although 20 according to Dad, and 18 according to Mom.

I think Copernicus would understand this. Not sure about everyone else reading it though.

Orion402

The fictional 'sidereal day' represents the foundations of a formal framework called RA/Dec which attempts to project the Earth daily rotational characteristics into space. Some readers may hear the Equinox described as the Sun's motion North or South of the celestial Equator, well that is a description from the late 17th century framework where the Sun wanders up and down against the Earth's Equator-

( Readers may have to click on the empty space to see the graphic)

It eventually leads to a description of the seasons that is offensive despite the conviction that the fictional sidereal day has nothing to do with sunrise/sunset or the seasons as described by wayward theorists-

https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap210922.html

A flat Earth description would be less an assault on the eyes and if observers can stomach it, they can have climate change modelling and all its undisciplined indulgences it takes with observations.

None of this is particularly difficult, however, at this stage it is an exercise in restoration - preparing the groundwork for genuine planetary climate research that includes planetary dynamics and inclusive of cyclical weather.

M.T. Cranium

So, clear skies, Antares disappeared just before my cell phone went from 10:19 to 10:20 p.m., same period as observed by GL, a little over four minutes earlier tonight, slightly faster than the average sidereal day. The next thing that's going to disappear from my version of the weather forum is the OP. No rotation was required, just the ignore button. Buh-bye.

Gaoth Laidir

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119426374#Comment_119426374

These two effects combined may explain most of the 17 second differential between mean sidereal day and GL's timing from the past two days, although an uncertainty factor of several seconds is likely involved, to place Antares at exactly the same location in the photographic grid. It looks very close to similar in the two photos, but a picture taken 5-10 seconds later might look indistinguishable.

Yes, there was certainly an error in lining it up exactly and I wouldn't take my times literally to the second.

Orion402

The first Sun-centred astronomers had to work with a system where the Sun was seen to move directly through the constellations annually (Ptolemy) as an extension of an older framework where the stars reappeared seasonally (heliacal risings) as a dawn appearance.

We can now enjoy the latter perspective as the stars change position from left (evening appearance) to right (dawn appearance) of the central/stationary Sun as a demonstration of the Earth's orbital motion -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2uCtot1aDg

Next month, Venus will come within range of the C3 camera moving from right to left and behind the Sun whereas the time lapse above shows Venus moving between the slower moving Earth and the central Sun. This solves a problem that existed long after Copernicus accounted for the observed motions of the slower moving planets using a moving Earth. The flawed view (Brahe) as opposed to the deficient view (Copernicus) is now resolved with 21st century imaging.

People can do better with observations which affirm planetary dynamics as eventually these dynamics become reflected on the surface of the Earth as the Earth sciences of biology, geology and climate.

Orion402

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119426454#Comment_119426454

Congratulations to both of you for discovering that you have accurate watches.

For everyone else, watches ( equable hours, minutes and seconds) arise from the 24 hour day, which in turn arises from a precise set of principles which anchor watch noon to natural noon as an average. Maybe some day you will discover that one sunrise/noon/sunset cycles equates to one rotation of the Earth and a thousand rotations in a thousand 24 hour days.

The misuse of clocks in the late 17th century for 'sidereal day' modelling remains as disruptive as computers are misused today for 'climate change modelling'.

Gaoth Laidir

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119426544#Comment_119426544

I didn't use my watch, I'm going off the timestamp on the photos on my phone. Congratulations on not getting anything right.

Oneiric 3

I have a nice G-Shock watch. It tells the time, and that is all it needs to do and what I need to know.

Orion402

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119428594#Comment_119428594

What is time?

The shadow on the dial,

the striking of the clock,

the running of the sand,

day and night, summer and winter, months, years, centuries

- these are but arbitrary and outward signs,

the measure of Time, not Time itself.

Time is the Life of the soul.

Henry W. Longfellow (1807-1882).

Accurate timekeepers were first built to measure distance based on the 24 hour and Latitude/Longitude systems and they still do via the GPS system. The basis of timekeeping is cyclical and in the case of the watch and the 24 hour day, that cycle is natural noon as the planet turns once every day.

Newgrange also tells the time in the most exquisite way and has not lost a day since it was built over 5,200 years ago as people today celebrate the December Solstice on the same day as they did back then.

The watch you wear is the result of the work of so many careful people across history up to and including the marine chronometer which helped save so many lives and was a major innovation for everything that followed in terms of precision. You may not want to know while others go about misusing watches, however the relationship between timekeeping cycles and the planetary cycles are still there behind all the rubbish which obscures the connections.

Gaoth Laidir

Ma che cazzo..!