Baptising children

looksee

I don't think your wife wants to baptise the child (children?) particularly, she wants a party. It wasn't an issue that the first was not baptised, due to covid, and if she was really concerned about the child's soul she could have found a way of baptising him/her, just without the ceremony and fuss. And of course without the ceremony and fuss she didn't see any point. Now that life with covid has opened up have a 'welcome to the children' party, come up with some sort of name ceremony if you wish, or has been suggested, a humanist celebration.

wench

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118878385#Comment_118878385

Once you've established a common lack of belief in any gods, that's that topic pretty much exhausted.

The ongoing interference of the catholic church in the schools and hospitals is much more troublesome and a suitable topic for discourse.

pi_anon_argh

Thank you all for comments and thoughts. I spent a long time Sunday night and Monday thinking about it all.

My wife wouldn't be one for a party, but she doesn't really like to forge her own path - to be 'different', so the default option is to do what her family have done and what her friends have done. We've discussed naming ceremonies before, and she definitely doesn't want that (we've never even been to one, so that's very different). She does have a Catholic-based faith though, so I have to respect that.

I'm brutal at quoting in the new layout, but @Hamachi :

Personally, I feel like a happy, harmonious marriage trumps everything else.

@3DataModem

Just do it to keep your wife happy.

And @PeaSea

In principle, there's no contest there. You don't have to live with the church.

That advice trumps it all. I've told her that I think I'll be less unhappy with them baptised than she would be if they weren't. So for a net higher overall happiness in our family and marriage, baptism it is. If that makes sense.

Or to paraphrase Groucho Marx - these are my principles, but if my wife doesn't like them, I have others. 😁

looksee

Its just a little bit sad, but your pragmatic approach is probably the wisest.

Still stihl waters 3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118882134#Comment_118882134

I'll be in the same boat if we ever kids🤞, she wants then baptised and I don't but I'll go along with it to keep her happy, they can make up their own minds when they're old enough

shesty

I find this conversation interesting.

We have 3 kids, all baptised. The eldest is 7. I don't care whether or not they do religion in school, but there are a few things I have noticed along the way, that as Irish adults of a certain age, we tend to either ignore, or just not realise.

We are all sitting here having this discussion as people who had a lot of exposure to the Church as kids (mostly). People who probably came of a generation where we attended Mass most or every Sunday, where our parents mostly still do, where the Church pervaded everything. We lived through Divorce, Abortion, Gay Marriage referendums, which were hotly contested on a religious basis.

Our kids haven't and won't. And you can or can't baptise all you like, but at the end of the day if the child is not attending a Mass on a regular basis, it means literally nothing to them. It's a big building they pass in their local town, part of the scenery. It's a weird place they might get taken to at Christmas. It's songs at Christmas (carols) that they don't know and probably will never learn.

Already my 7 year old is 7 years of non-practicing catholic further into her life than I am. Religion is a thing she does in school, in bursts. Like Geography, history, Art and random science stuff. Without the attendance at Mass, it means basically nothing.She has no context for what she is learning (nor does my 5 year old) and no context for how it might play into daily life.

We get so worked up on both sides of the argument, but the reality for kids that are baptised today is that religion is a big building we tell them is a Church, and odd bits of religion during school. They aren't "trapped" in it (how can they be, when it means nothing to them on a daily basis??). We project our own history and knowledge of religion on to them when arguing about these things, but for their real life it means very little without regular attendance at a Church.

My own take on it is that religion is a person's own business, but don't shove it down everyone else's throat - either atheism or your particular choice of religious doctrine. If your wife wants to get the kids baptised, of course she can, but it won't be anything like her life unless she is prepared to bring them to Mass fairly regularly to be honest.

ahappychappy

The issue for me is the figures of baptised people becomes the data to support the non provision of non religious education/healthcare/etc. Some way to rectify this issue would be of benefit to all of society and provide appropriate representation in the settings mentioned.

I

fits

If my husband strongly wanted our children to be baptised I would probably have gone along with it. But he didn’t so they aren’t. Now we are in the somewhat absurd position of our unbaptised twins attending different schools - one RC and one CoI in ethos whatever that is. I just don’t think religion has any place in schools any more.

A2LUE42

I have a friend who wants me to be a godfather to their youngest child in the next couple of months. I pointed out that I am an atheist and probably not the best choice for the role, but that didn't seem to matter. We really do inhabit a strange place in the world of religon. Census was 'No Religion' for all in the household. But the number of people in Ireland who would say they don't believe in a god, but identify as Catholic is hard to reconcile.

Gregor Samsa

Ultimately, this is a personal decision for you and your wife to make. And it seems that either way, there has to be a compromise from someone. Not easy, but that's life.

But I'll just share my experience for what it's worth. I've three kids (12, 8 and 8). None baptised my wife and I agreed on that, although for slightly different reasons to each other. We had "naming ceremonies" for them at home - party for the extended family, really. No actual ceremony. Everyone enjoyed them.

All of them go to "Catholic ethos" schools (no issue with entry). None of them did religion in Primary, which wasn't an issue at all - there were a good few kids sitting it out. Eldest is now in Secondary, and she does Religious Education, but only because it's an exam subject.

Eldest never felt like she missed out for not making her Communion or Confirmation. We went away to Legoland in the UK on the day the class were making their communion, so I think she feels she got the better end of the deal there.

The youngest two's class are making their Communion next month. No complaints from them that they're not, and there's about 6 kids in the class that aren't.

I've yet to come across any downsides, for them or us, for them not having been baptised.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118889211#Comment_118889211

no, it doesn't. the census info is the basis for any calculations on religiosity of the population.

ahappychappy

Well when we started campaigning for a local ET school back in the early 00s we were referred on several occasions to the census figures of families indicating catholic. When we started the secondary campaign in the mid - late 00s we had the point raised on more than one occasion. Very frustrating when you know the practice is different. Things have improved now there are local surveys asking parents of pre school kids - so a welcome change to reflect on the ground needs.

magicbastarder

that was my point? that it's census figures, not baptismal figures which are used.

The argument of 'let them decide for themselves' when you have already forced them into baptism is just ridiculous!

Letting kids decide for themselves would be not giving them any religion and allowing them to decide which, if any, they are interested in.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118876186#Comment_118876186

But didn't the OP and his fiancee undergo the mandatory Catholic marriage preparation course, given that they married in a Catholic church?

This does, or at least is supposed to, make very clear that it's OK for a non-Catholic to marry a Catholic in an RC church but they must promise to bring up their children in the RC faith.

I can understand the reasons for this, good business reasons, however nonsensical I regard the faith itself. OP should have refused the catholic wedding if they wished to refuse the catholic consequences.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118876507#Comment_118876507

Who the hell is he to call any people bad people? Feck that noise.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118892105#Comment_118892105

Nitpick: It's the Catholic spouse who is required "to make a sincere promise to do all in his or her power so that all offspring are baptized and brought up in the Catholic Church". The other spouse is to be informed about this, but is not required to make any promise themselves.

Hotblack Desiato

Nitpick accepted. It's down to whichever spouse is willing or able to overrule the other in any case. Hardly a good basis for a 21st century marriage.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118892145#Comment_118892145

You're assuming that the non-Catholic spouse will automatically oppose the idea of raising the kids as Catholic. It ain't necessarily so.

The point of the require is to have both spouses involved in addressing the issue before they marry, rather than after - or, worse still, after the kids are born.

kowloonkev

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118889313#Comment_118889313

It also raises the interesting point of having a special aunt or uncle in their life. And I have to say that there is no way I'd be buying birthday and Christmas gifts for all my nephews and nieces, but having one as a godchild allows me to take care of that kid without feeling guilty about not buying stuff for the others. If I didn't have that privilege of being a godparent (which can't really be replicated any other way) then I wouldn't buy them anything for the risk of being unfair and the fact I couldn't afford to buy for them all. I wonder if parents who have a few unbaptised children find that the gifts dry up a bit when they have their second or third child.

Finally, I think it is strange that someone can believe in God until they hear some bad stories about the Catholic church but then suddenly they're an atheist. You don't need the Catholic church to believe in God. Your faith is not in the Catholic church - it should be in God, and if you believed in God then I don't understand why that faith disappears when you don't believe the Catholic church anymore.

Still stihl waters 3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118891112#Comment_118891112

Have you decided for yourself like I have? to be honest it's a load of nonsense but it's still a fact of life in modern Ireland, if 1 parent wants to baptise then it's no skin of anyone's nose to do it in my opinion, the child can make their own mind up as an adult just as I did, it makes no difference in the long run whether baptised or not

magicbastarder

And I have to say that there is no way I'd be buying birthday and Christmas gifts for all my nephews and niece

How many do you have? I've five and have always bought them presents. I enjoy the process of picking them (though the two teenagers now get cash)

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118892174#Comment_118892174

I have decided for myself. It did however make a difference when I was a child. By the time of my confirmation I did not want to make it, had no interest in it, at that stage I didn't believe in organised religion, which progressed to non belief in God.

I didn't get any choice, because my mother had forced me into religion and continued to force me into confirmation. I also cannot leave the church. So now, I am a non practising Catholic, instead of a person with no religion.

magicbastarder

again, you having been baptised does not make you catholic.

if you believe it does, you place wayyyy too much faith in the power of baptism. you're not a catholic.

Still stihl waters 3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118892345#Comment_118892345

It'll take a long time to change that but I know if our kids are ever baptised they'll never again see the inside of a church apart from weddings and funerals, it won't be forced on them to practise it's just still seen as something that's done, in a generation or two hopefully it'll be almost non existent, we're only a few years gone from the grip the church had on this country, these things take time to change

looksee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118892345#Comment_118892345

Of course you can describe yourself as having no religion, just because someone else signed you up to something doesn't mean you have to go along with it.

Eircom_Sucks

i was told by a paricular school in swords that our children could NOT attend unless of the Catholic faith , so we christening and communion etc but now they are letting any religion in

looksee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118892139#Comment_118892139

When I married a Catholic (granted it was over 50 years ago) he did have to promise to bring up children as Catholics, but so did I, and I had to sign a document to that effect, he didn't have to sign anything.

The children were brought up as Catholics, he was very conscientious about taking them to mass every week, though I did all the practical stuff like helping them with catechisms, learning prayers and explaining church teaching, all of them fell away by their mid teens.

magicbastarder

a colleague (CoI) married a catholic woman; he was fine with bringing them up catholic. but when the priest told them when they were preparing to get married that it was a legal requirement for the kids to be brought up catholic, and she corrected him on that, his (the priest's) reaction was so obnoxious that she told him to get ****ed and converted to CoI.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118892486#Comment_118892486

The rules changed in 1983 (and in some countries earlier). Since 1983 the rule everywhere has been that the Catholic spouse has to make the promise, and the non-Catholic spouse has to be informed about it. Neither spouse normally has to sign anything; the priest signs a statement for the diocesan records confirming that the Catholic spouse has made the promise, and the other spouse has been informed.