Baptising children

pi_anon_argh

Long time poster going anon...

I just had a long discussion with my wife about baptising our children as Catholics. We never baptised the first (and Covid made it not an urgent matter), and now she is talking about baptising again with the second.

I am dead set against it. I was raised as a Catholic. I used to have a lot of faith until my mid-20s, mass every week, etc., but the various aspects eventually turned me off. The abuse scandals that constantly came out, along with gays going to hell, unequal treatment of women, etc. I'm an atheist now.

She was raised in more of a laidback Catholic family - mass not a weekly feature. She has never gone to mass since I've met her except for funerals and weddings, anniversary masses and Christmas mass with my parents. She says her faith doesn't require her to go to mass or to the church.

I don't want my children anywhere near the church. I didn't want to get married in a church, but relented when she invoked the memory of her deceased aunt who was a nun. I thought that my compromise there would be enough, but she saw it more as an acceptance of future baptisms. I felt like an arse lying to the priest and in front of the entire congregation about how much I love God and Jesus, and now she's asking me to do more of it.

I said that if we get them baptised, we're 100% committing to what we promise - mass every week, teaching them all about the bible at home - but she says she doesn't want that, just for it to be like 'how she grew up'. I don't understand that if mass or the church aren't part of her faith, then why does baptism need to be part of it. I don't want to be the parent having a big party for the communion and then never darkening the door of the church until confirmation time. I would loathe myself being that hypocritical.

I'm torn between sticking to my principles, and making my wife happy.

Atlantic Dawn

Most now seem to be just an excuse for a knees up drinking session, the same people who go to mass proud as punch on Christmas day dressed in their finest like it's the cup final and don't attend a single league game session of mass all year. 'Catholic schools' in Ireland are now forced to include anyone and everyone unlike other faiths who can restrict so that's not really an excuse any more to babtise, total shambles of a crooked decision if you ask me.

Not sure what I would do in the same situation, it could be perhaps difficult for your kids growing up if their cousins, classmates and friends are all making communions and confirmations and they are not. Your kids probably won't understand the committment until they are well in to their teens at which time they are already committed catholics so to speak.

macvin

You have a lot of anger about the church and it stems from your upbringing and how people regarded the church and anyone who was gay.

I'm atheist but I have huge respect for clergy of all religious.

In Ireland's dark ages (right into the 80's) it was considered shameful by many to have a gay son. People would look down on you, especially in rural areas.

Therefore instead of being an embarrassment, tye son was pushed towards becoming a priest and that "sorted the problem"

If the son had a perversion towards young boys, the same route was taken.

This led to a strong gay and problematic men in the church because the locals in the village would have all but stoned the person for being gay.

Today, thankfully, people are proud of being gay. It is no longer hidden and if someone wants to become a priest it is for faith reasons.

So maybe rethink and realise that it was a society issue rather than a church issue. It was society that pushed the issue into the church

Manach

I'd say, as a Catholic, that there is a wide spectrum of committement for the faith and your wife wishes to adhere to the cultural community aspects of the faith. This can be both for personal reasons and to remain connected to a parish that attracts a more diverse and electic set of members than many institutions. Hence, perhaps your wife has a point.

Atlantic Dawn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118876174#Comment_118876174

At the same time the church was attacking gays the same priests were raping and abusing boys and having homosexual relationships with other men.

HazeDoll

Everybody has their own circumstances and experiences and it's very hard for strangers to comment on how you're raising your family.

However...

The reason the Catholic church still has its grubby hands on schools and hospitals in Ireland is that the statistics show a certain percentage of the population is baptised. They don't care if you're practicing, they don't care if you wipe your behind with photos of the pope every morning, as long as you're a number on their roll. (When people started leaving the church in significant numbers about 15 years ago they changed the rules so it's no longer possible to have yourself removed from the baptismal registry.)

People who baptise for the day out, and show up again in new outfits for communions, and again for confirmations, and maybe once more for a wedding are the problem.

Did you ever wonder why, in the name of all things rational, is the national broadcaster broadcasting the angelus? Why you have to walk past a crucifix to enter a Comprehensive or Vocational school? Why, until very recently, you couldn't get a drink on Good Friday? These might seem like harmless eccentricities until you consider that the mode of thought that allows these to continue is the same mode of thought that allows the wealthiest organisation in the country to duck its responsibilities to those to whom it owes payment as restitution for some pretty nasty stuff.

I have no problem with people who have a sincere faith. I have a bit of a problem with people who allow a rotten institution to keep doing what it's doing because they want a nice day out.

Have a lovely humanist naming ceremony. Much more individual, much more family focussed and it doesn't preclude the children from being baptised later in life if they decide that's what they want. Because obviously it should be their decision.

Your wife is just like the majority of the people in this country. They have no interest in their religion and it's just something they do so they can have all the big days out, christening, communion, confirmation etc.

It's just hypocritical, if I was you I would stick to my guns, but I would be very set against the hypocrites.

Caranica

I'm a baptised Catholic. I don't resent my parents for that, but I do wish I could undo it. I had issues with the church from an early age too like you OP.

My parents didn't know better, we do.

Let your children make their own decisions when they're old enough, don't take this decision out of their hands. I wish I'd had that luxury. It's next to impossible to officially leave the Catholic church these days so while I've been non practising/believing all my life, I'm still officially a Catholic - though not on tonight's census 😉

There are plenty of secular celebrations, naming ceremonies, treat days instead of communions and confirmations if you're worried about your kids missing out. Educate together schools make it easier.

macvin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118876199#Comment_118876199

Yes. Even gay clergy were attacking gays as they were brought up to be ashamed of it.

Irish society was in the dark ages

Shove the issue onto someone else was the preferred route rather than have the "holier than thou" fervent Catholic villagers look down on you.

The Catholic church (and protestant in many cases) were very wrong, but society enabled them and encouraged them

Society cannot absolve itself. And likewise look at what it is now for any decisions on baptism.

I did not baptise my children as I have zero belief in religion / god. I simply cannot believe in some divine being and thankfully my partner thinks the same

Doesn't stop me being friends with clergy or going to funerals/weddings/baptisms.

Hamachi

Tough one OP.

I'm in a vaguely similar situation to you. I'm not particularly religious. However, I would go to midnight mass at Christmas and to weddings, funerals, and christenings. My wife is significantly more religious than me and would go to mass weekly. She was/is absolutely insistent that our kids be baptized, receive the sacraments, and go to catholic schools. Personally, I'm fairly ambivalent about it all, but go along with it. I guess the major difference is that religion isn't the deal breaker for me that it is for you.

Personally, I feel like a happy, harmonious marriage trumps everything else. I'm sure you love your wife and see yourself in this for the long haul. I don't see religion as the cross on which you should nail your relationship, if you'll pardon the pun. I totally get that you are uncomfortable compromising your principles, but are you willing to risk your home life to win this battle?

Jim2007

My son had all the same sentiments as those expressed here and I did not have answers… But his Godfather, a Muslim, had one simple question - why would you allow the actions of these bad people to define your relationship with your God? And I think it’s a good place to start figuring out what you want yourself.

Your wife is the typical European Catholic, most people only go to church on special occasions and the rest of the time religion is a personal thing. I’d say she is the typical Catholic these days.

Your believe system is a fundamental part of what defines you. It’s too late now, but most couples I know settled the matter before the kids arrived. I don’t think you can brush it under the carpet as it will arise again and again in the coming years, so you do need to resolve it somehow.

macvin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118876318#Comment_118876318

You CAN undo it. Simply tick the 'no religion' box on the census form.

I was baptised, communioned and confirmed. I don't see myself as Catholic in any way shape or form.

In early centuries baptism did not take place until adulthood.

Only the church rules state that once baptised you are always in the church. But if you are not part of the church the rules simply don't apply.

Therefore if you identify as no religion you should have no hangups about your parents baptising you when you were a baby.

HazeDoll

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118876507#Comment_118876507

The OP has said they are an atheist. They have no relationship with anybody's god.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118876174#Comment_118876174

Well you've got that completely backwards

Homophobia is massively correlated with Conservative religious attitudes

And Irish society has only begun to open up as fewer and fewer people are left under the psychological and emotional grip of the church

Caranica

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118876511#Comment_118876511

I've ticked that for years. Doesn't change the fact that the Catholic church records list me, and the OP, as members and there's f3ck all we can do about that.

The OP and their wife have to decide if they're happy to similarly trap their children.

If religion was particularly important to your wife OP I might give different advise, but as it is, she is just being hypocritical. There is no need to baptise your children when your wife won't even bring them to mass!

Your wife wants a party and photos to put on Instagram. You mentioned she said she won't bring the kids to weekly mass, study the bible etc. Stand your ground, why should her desire for a fancy day out trump your actual beliefs (and what ate also her beliefs but she just won't admit it).

Too many people like your wife are keeping the church alive in this country. And the church are as bad, bunch of hypocrites accepting children for baptism who are born to unmarried parents.

The idea of a humanist naming ceremony is a good one OP. Or just do a day out/barbecue/party with your families to celebrate the child themself.

Catholic weddings are already below 50% of all weddings each year now , as per the CSO, and realistically would be a fraction of that again if people weren't worried about what great aunt Susan might think. Same for baptisms. Don't worry about the grandparents, aunties etc, if they truly love the child they'll get over it.

Is your wife the type to believe in old superstitions?

I ask as there used to be an old superstition that if a baby died unbaptised their soul would be stuck in limbo. I remember my grandmother talking about it, with genuine fear.

Maybe your wife is a little bit inclined to let stuff like this worry her, but doesn't want to admit it to you, given your stance.

Hannibal_Smith

Mod Note

OP

I'm going to move your thread over to the Parenting forum, where might probably be able to have a wider discussion on the matter.

Local Charter applies

Thanks

HS

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118876546#Comment_118876546

So? If you don't believe their rules their rules don't apply to you. Anyway, the baptismal record is merely a historical statement that you were baptised and does not state you're a Catholic. The worst thing you can do about an unwanted baptismal record is believe it actually means anything.

3DataModem

You are letting the church and baptism dictate your choices and feelings, which is exactly the opposite of what you say you want.

Just do it to keep your wife happy. If she's a casual catholic, there's no downside. Christenings, Communions and Confirmations are fun expressions of your family, and try to see it like that.

Irish_wolf

Have you considered a naming ceremony style event?

It's possible as others have mentioned that she just wants a day of celebration for the child. There's nothing wrong with that, even if it is a bit selfish. My brother and his partner didn't bother with a baptism even though she grew up in a strongly religious environment. Instead they had a small party with family and friends, got a few nice pictures with all the generations and a page in the baby book. Was actually lovely.

Maybe instead of dismissing the idea outright find out why she wants the baptism. If it's because 'tradition' or something she feels the child would be missing out on then a naming ceremony might just fit the bill.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118877114#Comment_118877114

This hypocritical view of religion and sacraments is widespread across the country, I actually hate it.

There are plenty of fun things to do that don't involve religion

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118876516#Comment_118876516

Any you think that is not a belief system?

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118877114#Comment_118877114

If you are that flexible on your beliefs, are they worth holding at all???

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118878317#Comment_118878317

atheism is a belief system in the way 'not playing tennis' is a sport.

Jim2007

The amusing thing I find about Irish atheists, unlike those I know from else where, is that they keep harping on about their hatred of the Catholic church rather than their core believes - the non existence of God or Gods.... if fact few ever get around to it...

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118878385#Comment_118878385

Well non atheists are unlikely to speak of how they dislike god, are they now?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058240122/baptising-children

"I'm torn between sticking to my principles, and making my wife happy."

In principle, there's no contest there. You don't have to live with the church.

3DataModem

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118877132#Comment_118877132

I agree.

However the OP has to live with his choice, and his wife.

I don't think that participating in those ceremonies as a parent is a problem, as long as you contextualise the religious aspects for the children affected. The church are happy for non-adherents to participate.

My casual atheism allows me to pick and choose what things to do. It also happens to keep the most people I care about happy (i.e. my wife and kids), be simple to execute, and engages the kids more in their community. To me, a no-brainer. Are they indoctrinated? No. Do I think it's more damaging to include them rather than exclude them? No.

But I genuinely feel for the OP; there's no correct answer here.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118877114#Comment_118877114

There is a downside in presenting a falsehood in Catholic numbers which impacts on societal issues including schools.

These casual catholics are insulting the church with their couldn't care less attitude apart from 3 days in a lifetime, and the church are worse for willingly accepting these in with open arms.

My mother in law is very religious, attends a weekly mass etc. I put the foot down and refused a baptism for our child on the basis that neither my wife or I ever attend mass, aren't practicing catholics and have no faith. The brother in law was a good catholic son, baptised the kids and none of them have seen inside a church since. Yet somehow I am the bad guy for having a bit of respect and not taking part in something I don't believe in, as opposed to the person who disrespects the organisation by saying they will lead a catholic life, raise the kids catholics, etc and then completely ignore the obligations (obligations probably not the correct term here).

looksee

I don't think your wife wants to baptise the child (children?) particularly, she wants a party. It wasn't an issue that the first was not baptised, due to covid, and if she was really concerned about the child's soul she could have found a way of baptising him/her, just without the ceremony and fuss. And of course without the ceremony and fuss she didn't see any point. Now that life with covid has opened up have a 'welcome to the children' party, come up with some sort of name ceremony if you wish, or has been suggested, a humanist celebration.

wench

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118878385#Comment_118878385

Once you've established a common lack of belief in any gods, that's that topic pretty much exhausted.

The ongoing interference of the catholic church in the schools and hospitals is much more troublesome and a suitable topic for discourse.

pi_anon_argh

Thank you all for comments and thoughts. I spent a long time Sunday night and Monday thinking about it all.

My wife wouldn't be one for a party, but she doesn't really like to forge her own path - to be 'different', so the default option is to do what her family have done and what her friends have done. We've discussed naming ceremonies before, and she definitely doesn't want that (we've never even been to one, so that's very different). She does have a Catholic-based faith though, so I have to respect that.

I'm brutal at quoting in the new layout, but @Hamachi :

Personally, I feel like a happy, harmonious marriage trumps everything else.

@3DataModem

Just do it to keep your wife happy.

And @Jared Victorious Speculator

In principle, there's no contest there. You don't have to live with the church.

That advice trumps it all. I've told her that I think I'll be less unhappy with them baptised than she would be if they weren't. So for a net higher overall happiness in our family and marriage, baptism it is. If that makes sense.

Or to paraphrase Groucho Marx - these are my principles, but if my wife doesn't like them, I have others. 😁

looksee

Its just a little bit sad, but your pragmatic approach is probably the wisest.

Still stihl waters 3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118882134#Comment_118882134

I'll be in the same boat if we ever kids🤞, she wants then baptised and I don't but I'll go along with it to keep her happy, they can make up their own minds when they're old enough

shesty

I find this conversation interesting.

We have 3 kids, all baptised. The eldest is 7. I don't care whether or not they do religion in school, but there are a few things I have noticed along the way, that as Irish adults of a certain age, we tend to either ignore, or just not realise.

We are all sitting here having this discussion as people who had a lot of exposure to the Church as kids (mostly). People who probably came of a generation where we attended Mass most or every Sunday, where our parents mostly still do, where the Church pervaded everything. We lived through Divorce, Abortion, Gay Marriage referendums, which were hotly contested on a religious basis.

Our kids haven't and won't. And you can or can't baptise all you like, but at the end of the day if the child is not attending a Mass on a regular basis, it means literally nothing to them. It's a big building they pass in their local town, part of the scenery. It's a weird place they might get taken to at Christmas. It's songs at Christmas (carols) that they don't know and probably will never learn.

Already my 7 year old is 7 years of non-practicing catholic further into her life than I am. Religion is a thing she does in school, in bursts. Like Geography, history, Art and random science stuff. Without the attendance at Mass, it means basically nothing.She has no context for what she is learning (nor does my 5 year old) and no context for how it might play into daily life.

We get so worked up on both sides of the argument, but the reality for kids that are baptised today is that religion is a big building we tell them is a Church, and odd bits of religion during school. They aren't "trapped" in it (how can they be, when it means nothing to them on a daily basis??). We project our own history and knowledge of religion on to them when arguing about these things, but for their real life it means very little without regular attendance at a Church.

My own take on it is that religion is a person's own business, but don't shove it down everyone else's throat - either atheism or your particular choice of religious doctrine. If your wife wants to get the kids baptised, of course she can, but it won't be anything like her life unless she is prepared to bring them to Mass fairly regularly to be honest.

ahappychappy

The issue for me is the figures of baptised people becomes the data to support the non provision of non religious education/healthcare/etc. Some way to rectify this issue would be of benefit to all of society and provide appropriate representation in the settings mentioned.

I

fits

If my husband strongly wanted our children to be baptised I would probably have gone along with it. But he didn’t so they aren’t. Now we are in the somewhat absurd position of our unbaptised twins attending different schools - one RC and one CoI in ethos whatever that is. I just don’t think religion has any place in schools any more.

A2LUE42

I have a friend who wants me to be a godfather to their youngest child in the next couple of months. I pointed out that I am an atheist and probably not the best choice for the role, but that didn't seem to matter. We really do inhabit a strange place in the world of religon. Census was 'No Religion' for all in the household. But the number of people in Ireland who would say they don't believe in a god, but identify as Catholic is hard to reconcile.

Gregor Samsa

Ultimately, this is a personal decision for you and your wife to make. And it seems that either way, there has to be a compromise from someone. Not easy, but that's life.

But I'll just share my experience for what it's worth. I've three kids (12, 8 and 8). None baptised my wife and I agreed on that, although for slightly different reasons to each other. We had "naming ceremonies" for them at home - party for the extended family, really. No actual ceremony. Everyone enjoyed them.

All of them go to "Catholic ethos" schools (no issue with entry). None of them did religion in Primary, which wasn't an issue at all - there were a good few kids sitting it out. Eldest is now in Secondary, and she does Religious Education, but only because it's an exam subject.

Eldest never felt like she missed out for not making her Communion or Confirmation. We went away to Legoland in the UK on the day the class were making their communion, so I think she feels she got the better end of the deal there.

The youngest two's class are making their Communion next month. No complaints from them that they're not, and there's about 6 kids in the class that aren't.

I've yet to come across any downsides, for them or us, for them not having been baptised.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118889211#Comment_118889211

no, it doesn't. the census info is the basis for any calculations on religiosity of the population.

ahappychappy

Well when we started campaigning for a local ET school back in the early 00s we were referred on several occasions to the census figures of families indicating catholic. When we started the secondary campaign in the mid - late 00s we had the point raised on more than one occasion. Very frustrating when you know the practice is different. Things have improved now there are local surveys asking parents of pre school kids - so a welcome change to reflect on the ground needs.

magicbastarder

that was my point? that it's census figures, not baptismal figures which are used.

The argument of 'let them decide for themselves' when you have already forced them into baptism is just ridiculous!

Letting kids decide for themselves would be not giving them any religion and allowing them to decide which, if any, they are interested in.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118876186#Comment_118876186

But didn't the OP and his fiancee undergo the mandatory Catholic marriage preparation course, given that they married in a Catholic church?

This does, or at least is supposed to, make very clear that it's OK for a non-Catholic to marry a Catholic in an RC church but they must promise to bring up their children in the RC faith.

I can understand the reasons for this, good business reasons, however nonsensical I regard the faith itself. OP should have refused the catholic wedding if they wished to refuse the catholic consequences.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118876507#Comment_118876507

Who the hell is he to call any people bad people? Feck that noise.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118892105#Comment_118892105

Nitpick: It's the Catholic spouse who is required "to make a sincere promise to do all in his or her power so that all offspring are baptized and brought up in the Catholic Church". The other spouse is to be informed about this, but is not required to make any promise themselves.

Hotblack Desiato

Nitpick accepted. It's down to whichever spouse is willing or able to overrule the other in any case. Hardly a good basis for a 21st century marriage.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118892145#Comment_118892145

You're assuming that the non-Catholic spouse will automatically oppose the idea of raising the kids as Catholic. It ain't necessarily so.

The point of the require is to have both spouses involved in addressing the issue before they marry, rather than after - or, worse still, after the kids are born.

kowloonkev

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118889313#Comment_118889313

It also raises the interesting point of having a special aunt or uncle in their life. And I have to say that there is no way I'd be buying birthday and Christmas gifts for all my nephews and nieces, but having one as a godchild allows me to take care of that kid without feeling guilty about not buying stuff for the others. If I didn't have that privilege of being a godparent (which can't really be replicated any other way) then I wouldn't buy them anything for the risk of being unfair and the fact I couldn't afford to buy for them all. I wonder if parents who have a few unbaptised children find that the gifts dry up a bit when they have their second or third child.

Finally, I think it is strange that someone can believe in God until they hear some bad stories about the Catholic church but then suddenly they're an atheist. You don't need the Catholic church to believe in God. Your faith is not in the Catholic church - it should be in God, and if you believed in God then I don't understand why that faith disappears when you don't believe the Catholic church anymore.