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2% max rental increase allowed inflation 7% plus

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 18,850 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    People don't know what the price will be in the future. When they were selling, they might have anticipated that prices would drop. Prices of land, for example, dropped over the couple of years to around 2018. Many people were aware of people getting burning in the previous crash and probably wanted to take their profits and run.


    "Landlords" are a funny group. They call it a business yet it is the only business that expect the State to support amateur actors.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,128 ✭✭✭Fattybojangles


    The property market is constantly subject to Government regulation and as for restriction on market rate are you having a laugh? Rent is colossally expensive in this country as it is you are lucky there aren't strict rent controls in this country already.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,700 ✭✭✭amacca


    I think we are in agreement tbh.....I don't like state meddling either, what you have described there sounds more like a functioning market and something approaching fair play.


    I'm not sitting on property like smaug the dragon giving the two fingers to everyone else rubbing my hands with glee as the state tells me what I can charge for the use of my own property as I dont see that as sustainable, (now letting people build what they want wherever they want with no checks and balances is probably not a great idea either) but a functioning market with minimal state meddling and law and order is something everyone should want.....


    100% in agreement on falling behind then you entered into an agreement and its time to move on and no more hap payments etc, work for it


    And at the same time as that I'm not a thatcher, I think people should have good conditions to work in and fair play too. I know that might bring down rents but I dont think thats a bad thing my issue is the interference more so than the final rate.....I should be able to decide what I charge myself (even if its going to lower because of that right), I should be able to get rid of people that don't pay with a minimum of fuss and there should be recourse for damages.......in other words I don't mind less money for law and order and a functioning market...long term thats good for everyone ......if the whole thing wasn't dysfunctional they wouldn't need to be meddling in peoples affairs.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,850 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    How much do you think you'd be getting for rent now if the government had not intervened during covid and supported the whole economy?

    No PUP, no EWSS. No pressure on banks to bring in mortgage holidays. No borrowing to pump massive amounts into the economy overall. In a free market that is what should have happened.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,719 ✭✭✭Grumpypants



    I get the concept of risk-reward. The balance has been artificially skewed against landlords preventing them from getting a reward based on the level of risk they take on. As the government has put in place additional measures to increase the risk while at the same time reducing the rewards.

    The reward is that after working for 30 years you "might" own a property that is worth a decent amount. That you can then sell. Because until you sell it you don't release the value.

    The risk: Property prices fall, the property is damaged beyond repair, the tenants stop paying rent, the mortgage rates go up, the cost of providing the service goes up but you can't increase rent in line to cover the costs.

    Don't forget if you get a mortgage for 300K you end up paying back nearly 600K. To get 600K income from the property you need to earn 1.2 million from rent.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,700 ✭✭✭amacca


    TBH I'd be getting the same but I'm in a unique kind of situation and I'm not saying that as an I'm all right jack statement.


    I'm not a free market zealot btw, state has to intervene in some circumstances.....but comparing an exceptional event like a pandemic to an ongoing situation like the balls up made of property..................

    there may be some parallels but those two are not directly analogous, arguing for one doesnt mean you are arguing for the other



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,850 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    It you want to lock up your money for 30 years with no risk, Irish sovereign bonds are yielding about 1.6%. So that is an option for you if you want "risk free". If you want more, then you will need to take on some more risk.





  • Registered Users Posts: 7,719 ✭✭✭Grumpypants


    You can't get a mortgage to buy bonds. You can get one to buy a house to then rent out.



  • Registered Users Posts: 553 ✭✭✭BASHIR


    If you cant afford to run your "business" I suggest you sell it and try alternative forms of income



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,850 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    No but I find it a bit rich when general people rail against aspects of a system which is slightly to their detriment without recognising that the system is actually highly beneficial overall.

    There is no way that rents in general, or property prices, would be anything like they are now had the Irish State, and others around the world, not stepped in to prop everything up. They did it for the overall benefit of society.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 18,850 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    You can get a loan if you want. But why would someone loan you money at a rate lower than the risk free rate?

    And why should you be entitled to arbitrage in the case of property? That is a very entitled perspective.


    Buying a bond is giving a loan. If I buy a bank bond for 500k with a 1% yield, why do you think that you should be able to get that 500k from the bank, use it to buy a house, and have the State (including me) effectively guarantee, or at least strongly protect, you with say a 5% income? You take the risk. Your decision. It's actually my capital that is buying the house. If the State will guarantee it for me, I'll buy it myself. You can go and whistle with your mortgage.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,719 ✭✭✭Grumpypants




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,740 ✭✭✭ballyharpat


    I applied for PUP, as 2 of my tenants refused to pay rent for 3 months during the pandemic, I had zero income and still had overheads, I was told I am not considered self employed in the regard that PUP was counted.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,850 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    You weren't prevented from performing your "employment". You still provided the houses as per your agreement. Your tenants not paying you is separate from you being able to perform your "employment" - which is what PUP was for.


    It would be the difference between you not being able to work because your shop was closed and you being able to work, but the employer not paying you at the end of the month. PUP was for the former. Not the latter.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,850 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    Well if you don't have the money, we are back to the doctrine of tough titties.

    If you want to set up a system where there is no risk for property, you can waive goodbye to buying any more. Nobody will give you a loan to do it when they can just do it themselves for zero risk. The only reason they would not, would be if the yields (rent) come down massively.


    Why on earth would you feel entitled to borrow my 500k and for me to guarantee you a return on it (thereby me taking the risk). If you want me to retain the risk, I'll buy it myself. So we'll go back to a system where people with money keep money and the plebs can stay stuck with nothing.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,740 ✭✭✭ballyharpat


    I read the first 4/5 of your comments on here-none of what you say is logical, you keep moving goalposts to paint the picture of landlords always being in the wrong, rhere is no debate or discussion, or willingness to look at anyone else's point of view, so excuse me as I refrain from having any communication with you , other than this one.


    I do hope that you get rid whatever chip (concrete block) is on your shoulder.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,850 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    I do hope you get the chip off your own shoulder. Nobody owes you a living.

    What did the pandemic prevent you from doing in relation to your employment? To entitle you to the PUP.

    If you were already unemployed, you'd have been entitled to apply for normal SW under normal rules.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,128 ✭✭✭Fattybojangles


    Get a real job then owning property is not a profession.



  • Registered Users Posts: 985 ✭✭✭rightmove


    you dont know why ppl are selling??. You just go around name calling as if everything in the world is black and white. Your professional LLs are taking over now and I hope they will get a chance to discuss your rent with you. Your image of LL's needs improving. Perhaps there is some woke course for it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,719 ✭✭✭Grumpypants


    What are you on about. Why would I need you to guarantee me a return?

    It's not about landlords being guaranteed a return. It's about allowing them to make a return like other service providers.

    It's not about giving a guarantee against landlords losses. It's about allowing landlords to stop making a loss by evicting non paying or property damaging tenants.


    In the UK if they stop paying rent. You pay a small fee, go to court, judge makes a ruling, court appointed officers enforce it, they go to the house move them out, change the locks. The non paying tenant is moved out in a matter of weeks.


    Here (before evictions were banned due to COVID) you could spend 18 months, and thousands of euros trying to get them out.


    We should have a system where a landlord can choose who to rent to and how much to charge them. Then they can fairly take on all the risk and get the reward.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 18,850 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    "woke" is hardly an insult now if it comes from a category of perennial priviliged whingers who want everything to be handed to them because they feel special.

    If you can't handle something, get out of it. Simple as that. Don't be crying for everyone else to bail you out by changing rules and paying more just because you are inefficient and unable to manage. There is no benefit to allowing people to continue in a position when they aren't able for it. Pis$ or get off the pot as they say


    And no harm to take a minute to read a post before you go off on your incoherent diatribes. I never mentioned not knowing why people sell



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,850 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    You get your high yields because of those issues. Not in spite of them. I think that is what you don't understand.

    Why would you expect to be given access to my capital for basically the risk free rate and then earn a relatively huge return on it for little to no risk and little to no effort on your behalf?

    You get your higher return because that risk exists.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭mrslancaster


    Well I expected to be attacked for asking a general question so no big surprise there. Not a landlord here btw.

    You seem to have all the answers but just to be clear, I was trying to find out how two citizens, who are both liable to the same tax, prsi and usc rates on their personal income (irrespective of the source of that income) were treated with regard to income supports during the pandemic.

    The example of self-employed was used as that group of citizens pay PRSI & USC on their income at the same rates as landlords. And as you mention it, personal income in the form of dividends are also liable to the same prsi & usc rates.

    The term self-employed covers people who are self-assessed and file their own tax returns with Revenue, ie, anyone other than a PAYE employee. So if you are saying that the benefits linked to the same rates of PRSI contributions are different for different citizens, then why is that?



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,850 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    I'll give you a clue. You might not have been aware but PUP was not named after a crowd of bigots up the North, nor was it named after a young dog. It was an acronym which stood for Pandemic Unemployment Payment. It was a payment for people who became unemployed due to the pandemic. It is fairly self-explanatory.

    It was not a payment for people who were owed any money for any reason by anyone anywhere. If I gave my buddy 100 quid two weeks before covid hit and he didn't pay me back, I can't claim it back from the State under PUP either.

    Do you know any landlords who were prevented from performing their "employment" during the pandemic? Can you explain how that employment was stopped?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭mrslancaster



    No need to be all shouty and angry in your replies - it's just a discussion with different questions and opinions.

    You seem to know a lot more about certain things than some others do, me included, but why do you get so het up and annoyed when people on this forum ask a simple question?

    I got an answer from @ballyharpat thanks.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭mrslancaster


    @Donald Trump

    Just FYI, those landlords paying Class S PRSI @ 4% are classed as self-employed.


    From Department of Social Protection; Published on 4 February 2020

    Individuals in the following employments will be classed as PRSI Class S and will pay the rate in the table below;

    • Self-employed people, including certain company directors and certain people with income from investments and rents and members of a local authority.
    • The minimum annual contribution for Class S is €500.


    Post edited by mrslancaster on


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,695 ✭✭✭StupidLikeAFox


    "Don't forget that if you get a mortgage for 65k, you'll end up paying back 130k, which you need to earn 260k in rent"

    This is somebody from 30 years ago using the same logic you are using now.

    I just don't get the idea that a landlord should get subsidised/special tax treatment for what is effectively a largely passive income



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,850 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    That is not relevant. The PUP was for those who became unemployed due to the pandemic. Not for those who did not receive money owed during that time.


    Your link does not class people as self-employed. It just says that the 4% rate is also paid on other incomes such as investment and rents.

    I'm pretty sure I pay the 4% PRSI (and DIRT) on non-EU interest income I receive. I don't put that much pass on them as it would be 4% of less than half a percent interest anyway. That wouldn't make me, in and of itself, self employed. I just fire it into the Form 11 or whatever the number is.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,850 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    They always forget that they will pay no CGT on the nominal amount paid for the house.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 985 ✭✭✭rightmove


    honestly you dont have a clue. I was a renter for more of my life than a LL. I am neither now but I will stand up for something when I see it been made a mess off. Your incapable of seeing the real enemy. The REITS and the Government and SF if they get in.

    You sound like you are not too long in the tooth TBH.



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