Clontarf to City Centre Cycle & Bus Priority Project discussion (renamed)

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121106541#Comment_121106541

So why did you have to mention Eamon Ryan at all? Do you think he micromanages every project you don't like in Ireland or something?

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121105419#Comment_121105419

"vote them out" is one of my favourite catchphrases. Can't wait to see how voting out politicians, that they never voted for anyway, is going to work out for these people.

markpb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121106541#Comment_121106541

The new Google offices had to be substantially rebuilt because of problems during the build. An entire section of motorway had to be rebuilt because the road surface collapsed shortly after opening. Design and build problems happen to lots of projects. I’m almost all cases, one or more of the contractors will take the hit so the extra work costs the state nothing. Mountain / molehill.

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121107307#Comment_121107307

Yeah it's funny. The Greens are ruining the city centre with cycle lanes, vote them out! I mean they're doing exactly what people who voted for them like myself wanted them to do.

I don't even understand the voting system but I think they'll lose lots of seats because they wont get transfers or second votes this time? Imagine voting for the Greens and then being annoyed when they bring the Climate Act into law and start favouring active travel and public transport over private cars lol.

Citizen Six

I think the greens will lose out in the next election. Then people won't understand when the same plans and changes are still taking place. 😂

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121107896#Comment_121107896

They'll still blame the previous green government. They blame the state of public transport on the greens, not FFFG ignoring it for 100 years.

Seth Brundle

The green party have next to nothing to do with Dublin City Council deciding to build cycle lanes, etc. People like @Sir Galahad like to credit the greens for various projects but it simply shows a lack of understanding of those projects. This is probably why they attempt to use stupid attempts at humour like referring to Ryan as the Minister for Bicycles as a way to divert attention to the obvious flaws in their claims.

Pawwed Rig

The green party are single handedly deciding policy in this country and FFG have no say in the matter.

Or so you would think listening to the local cranks out my way

Empire o de Sun

People seem to be getting very upset about infrastructure that includes bike infrastructure being built.

The truth of the matter is, road capacity is at its limit in the city. Sure we can add lanes but that would fill up quickly and go nowhere. And cost 100's of millions.

North strand probably carries around a thousand cars into the city an hour. This is really bad. That is 1000 people. Whereas a bus lane with only 50 busses per hour would have 4500+ people per hour. If you are in your car stuck in traffic you'd think that the bus lane is a waste of space but it is doing more work for the economy than the general traffic lane you are stuck in. A bicycle lane has an even larger capacity than the bus and car lane combined.

And more people cycling and using public transport will free up more space on the road for people who have to drive.

Cars require a lot of road space. A car (usually with one person) travelling at 50 km/h (if possible) needs around 40 metres of road. It can be surprising how low road capacity is for cars.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121071113#Comment_121071113

If you can't walk a few hundred metres to a bus stop, then alternative travel is best for you. Maybe a taxi. What happens when the bus reaches its destination, do you jump on a broomstick and fly to wherever you are going if it's more than 300m away?

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121162222#Comment_121162222

Retired people get free travel passes, not free taxi passes. I'm not sure what is so difficult for "some people" to understand here.

The recommended distance between bus stops is 400m. For North Strand they decided 600m, despite being 50% below standard.

There is a very good reason the guidelines are 400m. Considering you also have to walk at the other end of your journey, if people have to walk "too long" to a bus stop.... usage of that service reduces quickly and people drive or simply don't leave (old people).

Shedite27

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121162346#Comment_121162346

600m between stops, so there' a stop at most 300m from any point on the road, rather than 200m that you propose. There's not many people that can get off a bus in town and walk around to do their business, but can't walk 300m rather than 200m to their bus stop.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121162346#Comment_121162346

If said older person takes the bus to town they will have to walk far more than 300metres when they arrive at their destination. How long is Henry St or Grafton St for example? Far longer than 300m and there is no bus on either road. So that argument doesn't wash. If they can stroll around town to do their bits and pieces they cam stroll to the bus stop.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121162370#Comment_121162370

What you're failing to consider is basic human psychology. Human beings view the world in a very relative way, in everything we do.

Medium/long distance trip:

Frequency is lower so people are more likely to check timetables than rely on "turn up and go" service.

Assuming your bus takes 45-60mins, if you have to walk 5-10mins to a bus stop, that's acceptable. The fact you also have to walk when you alight, is not a major consideration for most people.

Short trips:

Frequency is higher and a "turn up and go" service is generally expected, though not always the reality.

Assuming your bus only takes 5-15mins, the time you spend 1) walking to bus 2) waiting for bus, 3) on the bus, and 4) walking once you get off.... all these become important factors.

If you walk 5-10mins to the stop, you might have to wait another 5-10mins for a bus. Then, it's a bus that only goes to Talbot St. So I wait for the next one. Then that bus changes driver on the quays. The whole journey is just frustrating.

Now, DCC come along and double the distance I have to walk to get to that same bus. This does nothing but discourage people to use the service.

Also, it should be obvious that everyone doesn't live on the main street. There are side streets and apartments well off the main street.

alentejo

There are many places in the Suburbs which have bus stops way in excess of 400 m. I don't really agree with many elements of Busconnects, however the removal of some bus stops in my opinion is welcome.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121162466#Comment_121162466

People who live in the suburbs should think of this as a trip to the local village centre. Would you?....

1) 25mins walk

2) 5mins cycle

3) 5mins drive

4) 25mins walking to and from buses????

Clearly in that situation, if you make the bus choice less attractive, more people will drive to the local centre, which isn't sustainable or an option for everyone especially older people.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121162370#Comment_121162370

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121162412#Comment_121162412

You do have to factor in the distances walk to the main road where the bus operates as well.

That’s often why bus stops can be closer together than some people might like - in some housing estates people could be walking 600m metres or more to the estate exit before you take the stop locations into account.

Moving stops to increase the distance can be a deciding factor in putting people off from using the bus rather than driving.

Thelonious Monk

just back from Westwood in Fairview and the queue of cars in the bus lane, waiting to go in to park there (ignoring the overflow car park which always has space) was holding up 2 buses and and causing a jam. I think it's like this every morning and evening. Total mess.

Shedite27

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121162466#Comment_121162466

Nice post, but an extra 100m doesn't change the psychology any meaningful amount

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121162466#Comment_121162466

@alentejo you're missing my point here. If you live an hour bus-ride from town, walking 10minutes is fine. If you live 10mins bus-ride from town, walking 10mins is not fine.

Shedite27

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121162492#Comment_121162492

Yeah my bus stop is 8 minute walk from my front door, another 100m means I now have 8min 30 sec to get there, 30 sec is not a significant change in the overall "walk + wait + travel" time, which can be 40mins

Shedite27

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121162658#Comment_121162658

Overflow is full this morning too (just back). It's an exceptionally wet and windy morning which means more people go to the gym than usual and of those going, more driving than usual too

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121162658#Comment_121162658

This is the perfect example showing the impact of poor local bus services.... everyone drives to Westwood. I used to get the bus. Since the bus stops were removed, I drive.

Why, why, why, why would I spend 7mins walking to a bus in the rain, then wait for a bus, then spend 5mis on the bus, when I can just hop in the car right outside my door.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121162761#Comment_121162761

My walk was 300m, now it's 600m up a hill and takes 4mins longer. My 20mins journey is now 24mins, or 25% longer.

If you apply your "suburbs 1hour journey" perspective to this, you will call me precious. But it doesn't change the fact that I now drive more often because the bus service has gotten poorer. That is a fact.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121162761#Comment_121162761

The average human walking speed is 1.4m/s. By your calculations, you walk at 3.3m/s which is close to the Olympic record of Race Walking. Bravo.

For a normal human, an extra 100m is 70seconds, or in North Strand's case of 300m, almost 4minutes when you consider you now have to walk up a hill.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121162783#Comment_121162783

I really can't understand people driving to gyms. All that money on a car and fuel and gym membership. Walk up a few hills for the same effort.

Oh, I forgot, those people driving to gyms to workout for an hour are too frail to walk an extra 100m to a bus stop.

This discussion really is enlightening.

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121162773#Comment_121162773

to be fair it has barely rained so far in this part of Dublin, I flew down on the bike in a rain jacket. Storm hasn't kicked in yet.

Edit: Ok now it's lashing

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121162783#Comment_121162783

Everyone doesn't drive to Westwood, the bike racks are always full. It's probably one of the best served places in Dublin for public transport.

Why why why should the whole world revolve around a princess like you who wont walk a little bit or take buses?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121162492#Comment_121162492

The fact remains, they have to walk at their destination. Make all the excuses you want, there is no bus or car driving down Henry St or Grafton St. If they can't walk to the bus stop then how can they around town/shopping centre when they arrive there?

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121162964#Comment_121162964

But this is where people’s expectations of the bus service will always differ.

I firmly believe that a bus service is supposed to be convenient for all to use.

It has never been an express form of transport unless you add express limited stop routes, which is what you would prefer.

It’s a balancing act to be honest.

Best practice is for stops about 400m apart in built up areas or closer where needed.

Zero stops from outside Busaras until just before the Five Lamps on the H Spine and 130 is a ludicrous distance.

What Dublin lacks is more rail based options across the city because of long term political inertia and as a result we end up the bus being the backbone of our transport system and conflicting views such as these arise as a result.

Accusing me of making “excuses” is a bit demeaning by the way. We all have different opinions - that doesn’t make them wrong or “excuses”.