is entering dairying still an option

epfff

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119700140#Comment_119700140

I Know the kgs of nitrogen per cu mtr of slurry exported have halved since march but can you export after this year?

cosatron

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119700295#Comment_119700295

after march is the rate of nitrogen changed? where can i get my hands on the info.

epfff

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119700360#Comment_119700360

Slurry exported since march 2022 is only 2.4 kgs per cu meter.

Google it. But I can't find much info on 2023

GrasstoMilk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119700295#Comment_119700295

Think it was mid April it changed

You can export alright but it needs to be double if last year

would hope to pick up some land to get us out of exporting next year

cosatron

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119700394#Comment_119700394

ah they are pulling the piss now. they really want to get rid of the small farmer. so in the departments eyes, there is only 28.8 kg of nitrogen in a tanker of slurry

alps

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119700592#Comment_119700592

That's it...

The calculation we were working on previously "was wrong"??????

To export X kgs of N, you now have to export double the amount of slurry.

The big issue (apart from the cost) is that they never changed the P content.

You will now be exporting twice the amount P, and your importer may not have an allowance to take that much.

Thought there was a provision that all ground importing slurry has to be tested to calculate this allowance.

GrasstoMilk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119700632#Comment_119700632

They presume it’s index 3 if no soil test

straight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119700750#Comment_119700750

Maybe your right. Think I heard index 4 though

GrasstoMilk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119700827#Comment_119700827

You aren’t allowed any P on index 4 ground

wouldn’t be allowed import of it was index 4 they used as reference

alps

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119701196#Comment_119701196

Do you think that by not testing the importing farmer will be able to continue claiming index 3?

When exporting here, our limitation in the oast has been not to take the importer over 170kg N. How do we calculate a limit for P... if any?

GrasstoMilk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119701692#Comment_119701692

I’d say in future you won’t be able to import without a soil test

same as here with the 170 for who’s getting slurry off us

DBK1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119701692#Comment_119701692

The P limit is a much more complex calculation than the N and if lads were doing things by the book the majority wouldn’t be allowed import enough slurry to get them anywhere near the 170kgs of N as the P figure normally cuts them off long before that.

Like the nitrogen there is a limit to the P but it varies based on soil index. If there’s no recent samples you’re assumed as being index 3. As well as your livestock you also have to add in the P from any fertiliser used and also the P in every ton of meal you bought.

The allowable figure then varies based on different factors too. Any new reseed is allowed extra P. Any field cut only for silage and not used for grazing is allowed extra. Any field used for silage or hay that is sold off farm is also allowed extra.

It takes a bit of time to work it out but I don’t think it’s as rigorously enforced as the N limit.

I doubt you’d even find too many lads working in the department that would be able to accurately tell you your P allowance!

mr.stonewall

I actually think will be future for new entrants into dairying, but if they step away from the current teagasc playbook.

Factors are stacked against anymore expansion from a lot of existing operations namely, through new nitrates regulations, Land rental price, labour, input costs, land availability in existing dairy strong holds, and the big elephant in the room, age profile of farmers

On the stocking rate I feel that a bit around 1.5-1.7 Lu/ ha could be the sweet spot for dairying going forward. It simplifies the system on inputs, adds a buffer to the weather related issue, cuts investment need for slurry storage. It could reduce the second labour unit on some outfits. Remember big ain't beautiful. Burnout is starting to catch a lot of current operators.

Dairy expansion is most likely to take place in new areas but with a more simplified system. I'm considering here similar to @Siamsa Sessions making the switch to dairying. The next phase will be slower change rather than the rush to build numbers, The Sprint is over, now its longevity as a career is the important word. Expansion might not be the right word, but there will be an element of contraction in Dairy cow numbers,

I do feel there is opportunities for prudent new operators in the 60-120 cow bracket. Milking platform is the biggest pinch to most farms in Ireland. Labour and Nitrates/enviro regs are going to mould change in the Dairy farming

Green&Red

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119702240#Comment_119702240

I don't really understand the Teagasc bashing that goes on here, they're a research body, so they'll give the advice that they feel is best at any time.

Research changes all the time, years ago they advised to wash every cows teats, now its the worst thing you could do but that's because they were following the best research available at the time but then things developed.

Of course there's going to be mistakes or oversights, the push for expansion without proper storage or the JEX bull calves but again thats the nature of research, its always going to be impossible to cover every base and farmers need to look at their own enterprise and evaluate how the advice is going to impact them.

And farmers have their own biases, if you don't like JEX then you don't like them, but at least recognise that it is a bias, similarly I agree with a lot of what they say because it ties into what I think, I'd like to think it wouldn't stop me from considering other options outside what they recommend

Siamsa Sessions

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119703036#Comment_119703036

The issue with Teagasc is that they claim to do independent research but everything they do has to align with Govt policy. That’s where their funding to do research comes from. In my off-farm job, I have applied for national research funding in the agri sector and you always have to explain in the application how your research aligns with and supports Govt policy. All other sectors are the same, be it transport, health, ICT, etc. No alignment = no funding,

I don’t think Teagasc research or advice is technically wrong. But their job is to drive production, in line with Food/Harvest 2030 and other Govt policy. The research questions they ask are designed to support expansion which means a very narrow focus to whatever answers they come back with. This is then presented as the only game in town for “progressive” farmers.

They don’t look like it, but Teagasc are civil servants implementing Govt expansion policy

Green&Red

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119703123#Comment_119703123

I think you're putting the cart before the horse a bit there, Teagasc research determines government policy to a large extent and then it does become a self fulling prophecy.

On the research funding, you have to put parameters on where your funding goes, people would be giving out if government funding was scatter gun, funding is limited so it makes sense to have government funding aligned with government policy, to have it any other way would be reckless.

Its up to private industry to either fund alternative research or influence government policy through lobbying

wrangler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119703036#Comment_119703036

Teagasc bashing is a cop out..... an excuse for farmers not having to take responsibility for themselves.

Advisers will advise to maximimise profit in every case, every farmer claiming ignorance of the fact that every cow is going to have a calf every year really makes a joke of dairy farmers.

Teagasc have files of research on how to rear calves, why would they start at that again. they don't need to worry about calf rearing.

Next thing we'll hear is farmers complaining that teagasc didn't warn them about all the slurry cows produce..... Like slurry, calve are just another byproduct of dairy cows but farmers just pay too much for them to make a profit

straight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119703123#Comment_119703123

There is alot of great people in teagasc but there seems to be no room for any individual thought. Follow the handbook and that's it. Maybe that's why alot of lads I know are now using private advisors.

Green&Red

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119703372#Comment_119703372

But you can't run a government agency like that, you need to follow policy, it would be a shambles if every advisor was going off in a different direction to each other

wrangler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119703372#Comment_119703372

Private advisers have to do it right and advise well or they won't have a business.

This ''job for life'' civil service is not working and all departments have people that just don't want to work.

wrangler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119703123#Comment_119703123

 but Teagasc are civil servants implementing Govt expansion policy

I could say the same about the private consultants I know, They will maximise the profit on the farms they advise and that can involve expansion.

The key word is advise, any farmer that blindly follows consultants/teagasc advice shouldn't be farming, every farm/farmer is different

cosatron

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119703367#Comment_119703367

Yes as you mentioned teagasc will advise to maximise profit but at what cost, we are now 11 years post quota and we are burden with totally unrealistic and unprecedented nitrate regulations due to teagasc advice to maximise profit, contract rear replacement, they said, build up the herd and worry about the sheds later, they said, build up your solids through jersey crossing, they said. And as you are well aware when you get a farmer changing from suckler to diary his going to lean heavily on teagasc advice

alps

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119703372#Comment_119703372

You haven't worked with many?

Green&Red

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119703474#Comment_119703474

The farmer always has the option to milk less cows you know but there is no farmer who wants to hear that. Teagasc constantly push that a SR of over 3 has marginal cows that should be culled rather than carrying them but farmers dont want to hear that.

You've lumped Teagasc maximising profits and nitrates regulations in together there when they are two separate issues.

The notion that Teagasc said to worry about sheds, storage etc later is thrown out but IMO that is individual advisers not following the teagasc script rather than Teagasc policy, the kind of individual thought others are calling for

straight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119703501#Comment_119703501

Many what?

alps

https://twitter.com/seanboycowboy/status/1577596271329779713?t=QvkrEJbw0k5K0-2s_pzhaQ&s=19

cosatron

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119703643#Comment_119703643

🤮🤮🤮

straight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119703643#Comment_119703643

What is that about?

Siamsa Sessions

Lads won’t be happy til they pass the New Zealand standards of calf welfare

mr.stonewall

Just to clear up. The teagasc playbook is in for change is what I stated. The industry is at a point where it is coming to the red cow roundabout. Lots of different directions and heavy traffic coming from different sides. This ain't bashing it's taking it and analysing its strengths and potential weaknesses. Labour, milking platform and environment regulations are going to be the challenges going forward.

We are lucky to be able to make the best use of grass and teagasc have put a mountain of work into maximizing it's use to all farmers advantage.