Wind turbine

TomWH

Hi,

Can anyone give me information on building a wind turbine, I'm finding it very hard to get information.

the_amazing_raisin

So here's the thing with wind turbines, they work best when they have a clean and constant airflow across them. Also the bigger the turbine, the larger the swept area and thus the greater amount of power generated

This is why turbines keep getting bigger, they're trying to get at cleaner airflow higher above ground level and make the most of that airflow by having a huge swept area

So, back to small turbines. Rooftop turbines have very poor airflow because they're in built up areas. You can look on the internet at any bunch of magical wonder turbines that will promise to power your house even in the worst conditions. But the simple truth is this, if the airflow is crap, then the amount of power generated will be crap, regardless of how good the design is

Slightly larger turbines in rural areas do better but they're still going to face airflow problems depending on where they're located.

Larger turbines also require planning permission, and mention the word wind turbine out loud and suddenly you'll find a mob being organised to run you out of town

ec_pc

Also potentially interested, in rural area and a site which generally has a good wind flow. Not looking for a huge turbine, but somethint that makes sense financially, environmentally etc.

the_amazing_raisin

Would it not make sense to install solar instead? If you have land then you can install a ground mounted array pretty cheaply and the payback period would be better IMO

Also, I would imagine getting planning permission would be a lot easier

Nelbert

There's an Irish supplier who's website I've been looking at. Wind turbines appear to be polish made with a flat roof mount option....

They have a list of criteria to meet for planning exemption which all seems fine.

They are the vertical style but as with much of this type of thing aesthetic is the biggest challenge.

I'm near the coast and could mount it on the roof of the new shed I plan to build which would place it in as open an area as you are going to get in an urban setting.

My thinking is when the shed is replaced to have a raised parapet on the roof to minimise aesthetic (of the mount).

I'm thinking a weather station type thing is the way to go to assess wind speed in the potential install area over a period of time to know if it's viable option Vs solar panels....

Wind certainly seems an attractive prospect for me in winter (recent heat pump install).

Think pay back would be similar if not quicker with turbine.... In the right location you could be practically off grid (fully if with big enough battery to store excess for really calm days).

slave1

I think you are reading too much into literature, wind in no way beats solar for us domestic folk, we have good solar PV grants and panels are cheap and zero maintenance.

bullit_dodger

Yeah, I'd chime in with what slave mentions. I want to really get in behind wind - I really do. If I could get away with it I'd have a 500w turbine here in D16. Neighbors would go mental of course....with due cause to be fair. Noise, danger (of the thing coming down etc) not at least that its a pain with the specifics of the planing exemptions.

Sadly unless you put one on a mount about 40ft (ideally 60ft) up our in a rural setting, you'll struggle to get the rated power off them. Countless videos on Youtube confirming same. I don't say that to be negative, just stating what i think the reality is as I wouldn't want you to go to the trouble/expense of getting one setup only to be let down.

That said, if you are out in "da country" and have the ability to mount it clear of structures - have at it! Jealous. Compliments solar quite nicely as in the darker months (winter) the wind is typically stronger. Sure, 500w doesn't sound like a lot, but if it's doing it 18-20 hrs on a windy day, that's a nice addition to the pot.

Nelbert

Sorry to clarify... I'm seeing it as complimentary not instead of solar.... I'm thinking of biting in to my winter usage (heat pump only turned on to reheat hot water for best part of 6 months last year).

Using the solar forecast integration with home assistant at the moment to assess how much an impact it would likely yield.... And it's certainly looking very positive for March to October but wind if an aesthetically acceptable option was doable could help take a chunk out of the winter usage.

I certainly wouldn't be jumping on a turbine without setting up a weather station or something on the current shed roof for a while to track wind speed (similar to assessing solar potential at the moment). It would be a good investment no matter whether it proved or disproved a case for a wind turbine.

bullit_dodger

I certainly wouldn't be jumping on a turbine without setting up a weather station or something on the current shed roof for a while to track wind speed (similar to assessing solar potential at the moment). It would be a good investment no matter whether it proved or disproved a case for a wind turbine.

You see therein lies a part of the problem. If you look up the regs for planning permission.

Planing Permission for wind turbines - exemptions - Eurecca.ie

Specifically for you....

• The turbine shall not be erected on or attached to the house or any building or other structure within its curtilage.

So you legally can't affix it to the side of your house, or a shed. Course you can fix your weather monitor there of course, but not the turbine. It sort of has to be on a pole pretty much and the height a factor from the boundary of your house. Meaning that your weather monitor may not give good indication (lower probably)

If your out the country, most people would have ample enough land for such a structure, urban no chance. Some good historic winds websites around which will tell you the average wind speed for every month of the year for your location. I think if you have 5m/s your doing pretty good.

Still not to sound negative, if you have the land (and the inclination) I'd be giving it a lash myself

reboot

People , no matter what thread,seem obsessed with,bigger,faster,more power,be it solar,PV, turbines,EVs.

Are we not missing the point, ?

irishchris

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118803825#Comment_118803825

I think I must be. Enlighten me

NIMAN

Neighbour of mine has a 20ft turbine and is disappointed with the amount of power it produces.

Don't ask me anything about it, what power it is or his battery setup, sorry don't know much about it.

graememk

Was looking into the tesup turbines earlier on the year (looks like they have a v4 now of the vertical type)

Found a couple of videos online, all looked promising but then further ones with it falling to bits/breaking down.

And to continue with that one, it needs 5m/s to start spinning.

But if your grid tieing it, it uses a 48v growatt inverter, so it needs to have 6m/s to start to run that. (It's in the manual)

6m/s is 20km/h

I went and got a weather station. I do get a decent amount of wind, but it's very inconsistent.

Then the likes of the tower etc more solar gets a lot more appealing.

NIMAN

What sort of money are you talking to build a half decent ground based solar array? I have a large back garden, and the lower half in quite damp, only improving in the summer months. I wouldn't mind giving it up to put down solar panels. It would catch the sun for large part of the day.

TomWH

Hi all,

A very special thanks to everyone's contributions here.

I should clarify my house is isolated, I'm hoping to erect a freestanding turbine, maximum height 11 meters, thus no planning permission required.

What's required to generate say 2000 watts per day on average?

TomWH

500 watts, does that mean it generates on average 500w per day?

bullit_dodger

No, that's 500w is an instantaneous amount. 500watts would be the power output of the turbine - assuming that the turbine was running at full tilt.

The thinking is that you take this power and put it into a battery and store that over some time, and then you could run higher loads like a oven/kettle, which might require 2Kw.

It's important to clarify the terms. 1,000 watts or 1Kw is "power". 1Kwhr is amount of power. (basically 1Kwhr is the amount of power that 1kw would need if you ran it for an hour, or 2Kw for 30 mins etc)

Nelbert

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118802995#Comment_118802995

Uggghhhhh.... I saw the flat roof mount on their site and assumed it covered off...... Not sure of point of flat roof mount if you're not allowed stick it on a roof.......

I'd have covered the height and other requirements with a roof mount but if it goes on its own pole the distance to boundary is more of a factor.

bullit_dodger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118804911#Comment_118804911

The regs are quite limiting I feel. Still, if your "out da country" where your nearest neighbor is like 100m away, and hopefully he's/she is not a gombean, then I'd say you'd be fine. There's not exactly a set of police that go around inspecting houses for compliancy. The worst thing that you'll have is a neighbor "ratting you out" to the local council that you're in breach of the regs......so they'll have to care.

If your kosher with the neighbors I'd say you'd be fine attaching say a 15-20ft pole to the side of a shed and getting it 25-30ft into the air. I reckon you could probably get a low end system up and running for <€1,500. Run it for a year or two and see what kind of actual production you get out of it.

the_amazing_raisin

I thought you could attach a small turbine to your house roof without planning permission?

The problem with those small turbines is that you'd want some kind of pitch management to maximise the power output is poor wind conditions

But that adds a lot of expense, making it basically uneconomical. So we're stuck with the cheapo fixed pitch turbines

I do wonder if those €250 turbines ever work out. I mean they'd probably only generate 100W, but if it's constant then it could meet a fair amount of your houses base load

Nelbert

Would love to know myself. Even a couple of hundred watts if near enough constant could have a massive impact.

Every single bulb in the house is LED. Automated to turn off if room not in use etc.

I made a mistake on the dryer purchase due to budget and didn't get the newer heat pump ones but will address that in the next year or so.

After that my usage is as low as I can reasonably get it I think.

TomWH

For a decent solar panel job I was quoted about €7000 after grant.

You can go smaller of coarse, but you'd need to spend that much to generate decent electricity for a not so big house.

the_amazing_raisin

How many kWp was that quote for? It could be good or bad depending on the size of the system or panels

It's worth checking it on the solar quotes thread if you haven't already done so, to see how it compares

Although with the renewed interest in microgeneration, I imagine bargains will be few and far between

bullit_dodger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118805700#Comment_118805700

Sadly not mate.

• The turbine shall not be erected on or attached to the house or any building or other structure within its curtilage.

So basically your prohibited from attaching to any decent fixed structure (house/shed). I know....shower of xxxx the lot of them. I know where they are coming from, but yeah. Still, if your out in a rural setting, I can't see any reason why you couldn't fix one to a shed or some farm yard structure. If the "council" as to come around, are they "really" going to ask to to take down? What in this climate warming world? No I'd say your safe enough....

As for pitch angle optimization, you won't see that on those cheap chinese jobbies. Nearly every one of those reviewed on you tube have poor ratings - basically that you don't get what they advertise. The 500w ones rock in at 150w or there abouts. Now that's (to be fair) isn't bad for the cheap money that you spend, but if you want a decent output I'd probably go with something reputable.

unkel

Forget it.

Many years ago, against the advice of my more knowledgeable peers, I mounted a VAWT (vertical axis wind turbine) onto a 6m pole on my property in a valley in south Dublin, with no houses or trees for several hundred meters in the direction the prevailing south westerly wind is coming from. The results were beyond poor. Just don't do it. Install sh1t tonnes of PV instead. That actually works, is far cheaper per kWh produced and you even get a huge subsidy if you get it installed by an official installer.

Wind is great, it's the cheapest way to generate electricity, but it only works if you go huge. Think a 200m high 16MW turbine in the sea.

TomWH

*******, a Dublin based company quoted me €7645 for 10 panel solar.

3.55KWp output, 2KW battery included.

Price was quoted on 28th April last year. That's after grant being paid.

Jonathan

No naming company names, please.

TomWH

My property is certainly not in a valley, therefore I think I have that much going for me.

How much electricity did you get from the turbine, would it boil a kettle once a day? Is vertical axis better?

About 1940 my grandfather had a turbine on the hill near my house, I don't know how successful or not it was, unfortunately that same location can't be used now because of ESB wires!!

unkel

Boiling a kettle once a day costs about 3000W * 2 minutes * 19c / kWh = €0.02

Up to you if that's worth your investment of several grand...

slave1

Go on go on go on

Mr Q

Log the wind speed where you are going to fit the turbine for twelve months. Otherwise you are guessing.

I will be doing this with a LeWL Wind Logger. Unlikely after the 12 months that I have enough wind speed to make it worth while but at least I will know for sure.

It would be a good winter addition to PV if it was viable.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118817526#Comment_118817526

Here's a fun project, get one of those cheap 24V turbines you see on yachts and use it to charge the battery on a laptop. You could probably get a cheap voltage converter to keep everything DC

Then set a timer on the laptop to wake it at the same time every day and start mining bitcoin until the battery runs out

Probably the best payback period of any small turbine, and a simple/cheap setup as well

unkel

Did all that years ago ;-)

reboot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118804161#Comment_118804161

I think you have to start from the other end, how much power do you need ? As mentioned elsewhere, I'm interested only in staying small scale,on the ground, away from the mains. It's amazing how much modern technology can operate from a 12v dc and 5v USB setup. It's only a hobby, but I would spend €300 max.

unkel

Now that is good advice, reboot. Only spend a tiny amount to start and you will get to know the tech and what it can do. If you buy well, you should be able to sell it for what you paid or only a tiny bit less if you decide to change system or upgrade.

reboot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118831885#Comment_118831885

Totally agree, why are people who say,why bother,if you can just fick a switch, sure your not saving much, even on this thread?

You get either get it or you don't. Thanks, good to see some adults still here.

reboot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118831643#Comment_118831643

You might like to check out,"Simple basic and cheap" ,thread in Renewable Energies. The longest journey and ? all that.Not wishing to cross threads!

reboot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118802995#Comment_118802995

I'd advise against ever attaching a turbine to the house structure, I've sadly done it. The Vibration would drive you crazy. Good technical points, also of note is K Watts is a DC function. My turbine is AC , connected to a 3 phase rectifier,converting to DC. Strictly speaking when speaking in AC power terms, KVA is used.( Kilovolt amps), considering power facture correction etc.Interesting how many ESB EV charge points,AC only, are marked in K Watts.

reboot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118831885#Comment_118831885

To give a greatly over simplified thought experiment I used my small brain for.

In order for me to charge devices USB 5v dc, the power company transmit 44,000 volts AC.

I then have to buy a mains charger,and plug. it into 230v mains.

I thought, why not spend at least € 20 ,buy a small solar panel, already have an old 12v battery, or saved lipo from discarded devices, buy a cigar plug in the pound shop, 12/24 v In 5v out.

Farmers showing great interest as they dump their 12v non rechargeable fence batteries, in favour of solar alternative.

Many years ago , folk in Japan painted the roof, turning it in a solar collector, 9v dc, enough to charge USB.

I've zero interest in paying installers,sorry, to mount panels on my roof, when I can't turn the house round to track the sun.

But then everyone's different, but we are always learning, even from our mistakes.

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118838837#Comment_118838837

People just about get the difference between kW and kWh never mind VA!

And we as domestic consumers get charged for kWh not kVAh

bullit_dodger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118839893#Comment_118839893

I've said this before but it's refreshing reboot to see people like yourself on the forums promoting lower end stuff. Even simple things like using rechargeable batteries instead of disposable ones does make a difference. I'd say I've not bought a disposable battery in 2 decades! I don't know why people don't things like that more myself. Like you I also have a 20 watt solar panel with 5000mAh battery bank which I use to charge my phone occasionally.....when I remember to put it at the window to charge! :-)

The problem of course is that while all these things are good and fun, there's only so much you can do with that level of power. Hard to wash clothes at even 40C from a 50 watt panel, let alone drive in/out to work. For that you need more oomph. I don't have a EV, but I kind of like the concept of driving around Ireland on sunshine! If you said that to someone even 25 years ago they'd look at you as if you were mad.

unkel

It's not that mad an idea now at all. Obviously you'd need to take it handy on some of the dark days in winter 😂

Some simple maths. I live in a small semi-detached house in an estate in a suburb of Dublin. I have 8kwp of solar PV. All south facing, this generates about 7500kWh per year. An average Irish house uses 3000kWh per year so that leaves 4500kWh. Like many people these days, I work mostly from home so the car is mostly at home too. If I could use all that for my EV and it averages say 18kWh / 100km, my house would produce enough for 25k km in that EV, well above the national average.

If every house in the country did the above, and we would erect a few hundred more very large wind turbines (of the 16-20MW variety) and we'd have access to storage (in the form of batteries, pumped hydro, storage in EVs, interconnectors, production of H2, etc. etc.) we would need no more fossil fuels at all (apart from aviation for now)

reboot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118840521#Comment_118840521

Someone said that if every house in these islands replaced just one tungsten ( 90 plus % energy o/p is heat, the rest light), with an led bulb, a nuclear station could be shut down. One billion AA batteries are dumped every year, etc.

reboot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118839893#Comment_118839893

Sad to witness how many of our young folk leave education, not knowing, or caring ,the difference between an amp and a volt..Yet happy to march to support Gretta.

The purpose of education is to replace an empty mind,with an open one.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118840768#Comment_118840768

Open to what is the question though

reboot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118840829#Comment_118840829

Good question, might be sent to philosophy thread, man from Rolls Royce on the radio this morning, saying they are hoping to roll, sorry, out SMR s by 2030.

Essentially Small Modular reactors, flat pack, size of 2 football pitches.

Seems if we don't try to use less,or engage in our own wee solar/ wind projects,the nuclear lobby is here to stay and growing, on the basis of energy security. Fusion reactor record stands at 5 seconds.

Maybe folk are not interested in the technical nuances, but electricity is dangerous, lipo batteries and electric vehicles, turbines,off load and even small pv , can set fire to your house,or kill you.

But I digress,as usual.maybe one answer is "Open " to exchanging ideas, and trying to stay with facts and less on opinions?

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118838909#Comment_118838909

That reminded me of an article a read a while back about some group that was trying to replace the AC circuitry in houses with a low voltage DC supply

Basically beside your fuse box you'd have a rectifier and DC converter to take the 230V AC supply down to something like 48V which would then be distributed around the house

You'd still have AC sockets in the kitchen and utility room for high powered appliances, but the majority of household gadgets only need a few hundred watts

Apparently they had a bunch of manufacturers on board because it would vastly simplify their power supply design, only a voltage converter needed instead of a big power brick

It was tied to the smart home initiative and I think because that never really took off it kinda ended up being forgotten about

bullit_dodger

It's a really interesting idea to be fair. Probably not well suited to the original point of this thread of "Wind Turbine", but I'd be keen to continue this discussion in it's own thread if needed?

Low voltage house: I really like the theory, but the reality is not-workable in practice. The problem with low voltage DC circuitry is that they are fine for lights/sensors/charging battery operated stuff. Effectively the low power requirements that you mention raisin, but when you think about it the whole wiring would wreck your head in the house. You'd have (in effect) two separate systems in your house then.

Potentially you could have a wall socket in one room incapable of powering a fan heater, that you might want to plug in there because it doesn't have the juice. So you lose that flexibility. What you could do then to give back that flexibility is have both sets of wires going to the socket with different size 3 pin plugs depending on the load requirements for the device.

The low end power requirements wouldn't fit into the larger plug etc. But it'd be a disaster waiting to happen. The whole thing about wiring regs is that they (try) to make it as simple as possible. Introducing that type of solution, while "technically" you could get it to work....in reality, you'd have some muppet kill someone due to not understanding the wiring. You know the type of person I'm talking about here :-) LOL No there's a lot of good thinking gone into this and a 220v standard across the house makes sense, decided at a time when there wasn't LED's etc.

Side point: I often wondered about why we (Europe) picked 220v and 50Hz when the US folk picked 110v and 60Hz. The voltage is easy enough. We're "tight gits" with our money and 110v needs thicker cables to transfer the same power. Thicker cables = more copper = more expense....this is due to good reasons that power delivery where the resistance increases with the sq of the current that make 220v "better"....but I digress.. Never did get a good reason for the 50Hz though. 60Hz would seem to make more sense to me as it maps to the 60 seconds in a minute, so you could sync things easier. I heard it was cause with 60hz the lights don't "flicker" as much, but dunno if that's "really" the reason.

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118842480#Comment_118842480

Man do I have a video for you..

https://youtu.be/jMmUoZh3Hq4

(Technology connections, all about the split phase in the US) oh side side note, them 110v transformers on building sites are centre tapped too, so the between the 2 conductors it's 110v but from a single conductor to ground is only 55v

Jonathan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118842626#Comment_118842626

Between bigclive, technology connections and will prowse, I think we share a common YouTube subscription list 😂

reboot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118842626#Comment_118842626

I've noticed quite a number of the larger buildings in US have 230v outlets,presumably for heavier load requirements on some equipment.