30k speed limits for all urban areas on the way

Stephen_Maturin

The prune juice-drinking sandal wearers have got their way this time.

They’ll move on to some other form of pearl clutching exercise next - it doesn’t matter that we have some of the safest roads in Europe (and by extension, the world), they love to be nannied and that’s what matters.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121532745#Comment_121532745

You shoukd re-read what I posted because I didn't say that!

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121532805#Comment_121532805

Yet for all the talk of perceived danger, the actual data suggest the exact opposite. Both in absolute and in relative terms.

That's why those of us who drive have a right to ask if a radical and drastic measure like wallpapering the country with 24/7 30kph speed limits is actually warranted. For example, as to issues like the poster who can't send their children to school on foot because there is no footpath, the solution to that might just be to get a footpath built by the local authority.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121532887#Comment_121532887

The actual data is skewed because of what I already mentioned.

And let's not lie to ourselves about it: the roads, as they are currently, are not suitable for letting kids cycle on which is why you won't give a straight answer on the matter!

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121532905#Comment_121532905

Urban areas have footpaths and controlled junctions everywhere as a general rule in my experience, and most drivers are not maniacs, so pedestrians usually don't have much to complain about.

As to cyclists, they have both de-jure cycle lanes, and footpaths that are de-facto cycle lanes. So they have little to complain about either. At any rate, the fact that people are not dying shows that at least some decisions are being made correctly, no?

?Cee?view

The logical conclusion here is that all cars must be banned. This is clearly the progression from the arguments being put forward by the pro 30 limit people. We will then have the safest roads in Europe.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121531532#Comment_121531532

@SeanW you did not comment on anything in this response. You prattled on about my village. I live in Dublin city centre.

Care to respond to my response above, or just ignore someone challenging you with facts?

BagofWeed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121532967#Comment_121532967

Exactly these types want every breath we take regulated with rules attached. Fanaticism is what it is. There needs to be a co ordinated protest against this madness and the irony is we will be polluting more by crawling along at 30km.

I agree though with Oscar Madison's post about the 30km limit in France as they do it right there but we're special we'll do it the 'Irish way' and make a balls of it leading to more frustration and road rage and more traffic jams.

Stephen_Maturin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121532967#Comment_121532967

Absolutely, we should all just sit at our kitchen tables wearing crash helmets in case anything happens.

Best not go outside at all, it’s too dangerous - we just sit tight and wait for our government organised minders to come and feed us and wipe our arses for us. All at a safe speed of course.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121533033#Comment_121533033

My apologies, the it was a different poster that was banging on about how there was no footpath between them and their local school, I got the posts confused. I'll refer now to your post from before.

My understanding is that serious injuries, like fatalities, are also very rare in this country, though there are more of them. Hence, motorists have a right to question whether dramatic measures are necessary, warranted or proportionate. And the metric I used was "in the low single digits per billion vehicle kilometres" which obviously does not apply to Malaysia.

As to the UK, you're really stretching the statistics there to find an issue, Ireland the UK have similar statistics in terms of both deaths per billion vehicle-km and deaths per 100,000 population, the difference in deaths per 100,000 vehicles doesn't seem to indicate very much, except perhaps some difference in vehicle ownership? In any case, both Ireland and the UK are near the bottom of all lists covering all metrics.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121533087#Comment_121533087

No worries on the mix up of posts!

Not attempting to stretch data, but that stuck out to me. In any case, car ownership is only slightly higher in the UK, like 6%, so that data doesn't make sense. So I'll give you that one!

AFAIK there are 10 serious injuries for every death, so that's 1500+ serious injuries every year. That's hardly nothing.

I simply don't see the issue driving slower in urban areas. If it makes roads safer and encourages more people to walk and cycle, urban areas become nicer places to live. Not 100% of streets but certainly far more than now.

monument

Yeah, being only able to drive at 30km/h on some roads and streets is exactly like banning all cars.

Do you ever hear yourself? It sounds like the conspiracy theories gun owners have in the US... Just to be clear: nobody is coming to take away your cars. Many places with wider use of 30km/h have higher car ownership.

Rubberchikken

It isn't a 'few numpties' who are driving irresponsibly. 99% of drivers are no way in hell obeying the rules of the road

It is fairly constant speeding, phone use ignoring stop signs any signs.

I drive home from work at 6.15 am most mornings and all through urban areas. Yes 50 limit and I'll admit I'm going slower simply because of the streets, junctions, poor lighting but the cars and trucks I encounter are doing well over 50 whenever they can.

Ok there's little in the way of pedestrians at that hour but that is their 'attitude' and it doesn't change depending on the time of day.

Its a mentality thing. An entitlement. A couldn't give a crap thing that doesn't change.

They're willing to do 70ish in a 50 so lowering to 30 won't bother them.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121533413#Comment_121533413

And yet, all this supposedly dangerous driving isn't showing up in the statistics as fatalities. I suspect that if genuinely dangerous driving were commonplace, it would be showing up in road safety statistics like it does literally everywhere else on Earth.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121533375#Comment_121533375

Well we are heading for a de-facto car ban. Our government plans to ban ICE cars by 2030 or 2035 and there isn't enough raw material by several orders of magnitude to make electric cars including batteries for everyone. So by the mid-late 2040s you'll have to be wealthy to own a car.

?Cee?view

This trend is already evident in Central London. Was there a few weeks ago and the only cars to be seen are taxis and high end marques clearly driven by the wealthy. Normal Joe and Josephine Soaps clearly don’t get to drive in London anymore; they’re priced out of it.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121533636#Comment_121533636

I'm glad you mentioned limited resources. There are currently 1.5 billion cars on the planet or 1 car for every 5.5 people (versus 1 car for every 2 in Ireland). We'd need another 2.5billion cars just to even the balance between the developed and developing regions.

So either:

1) we start building better cities focused on people, instead of cars, with enhanced urban realms friendly to pedestrians, cyclists and public transport, and move towards shared ownership of cars where possible (especially in cities); or

2) we continue with arrogant western privilege, expecting to own a car (very often 2 cars between a couple) and drive wherever we want including into the heart of urban areas, despite it's enormous impact on the planet, including the urban areas we live in but especially the poorer areas we don't care about who produce the materials we need to continue our western privilege.

Are you a 1 or a 2?

For the record, as a couple we downsized to one car last year and don't miss it for a second. We just plan better when we need the car. If we're stuck we use GoCar and I occasionally take public transport to my rural home village and then use my mum's car.

Idleater

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121533636#Comment_121533636

>>>And yet, all this supposedly dangerous driving isn't showing up in the statistics as fatalities.<<<

Snippet from one recent Irish times article (https://www.irishtimes.com/transport/2023/11/12/overhaul-of-driving-test-curriculum-on-the-cards-as-road-deaths-spiral/)

"The number of deaths on the roads up to November 9th, 2023 had reached 165 which is higher than the total number of 155 deaths last year."

Maybe a Christmas afternoon could be spent having a look at some variety of sources.

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121532673#Comment_121532673

Yep, I agree...as usual they will make a total arsehole of it.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121533636#Comment_121533636

Fatalities aren't the only injuries caused by speeding. Their are folk in our emergency departments today from extremely serious incidents, such as those from motorcyclist incidents, that will be paralysed for the rest of their lives.

You also mention that footpaths are de facto Cycle Lanes. If that's the case where are the pedestrians supposed to go? Very car centric attitude you've got there.

Also regarding 3.3million "drivers" there might be 3.3million licenses issued but there aren't 3.3million drivers. 300k of those are learner permits for folk who can't drive on their own, and a bunch more are folk who have a license and no car, and pensioners who are too old to be driving any more. If you look at the registered cars, it gives a more accurate picture.

?Cee?view

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121533822#Comment_121533822

I’ll take 3.

Recognising that getting rid of one car and buying a cargo bike, or using GoCar, is a lifestyle choice that won’t make the slightest bit of difference to climate change or world poverty, but will play well with fellow socialists and Green fanatics.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121539257#Comment_121539257

Number 2 then.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121539667#Comment_121539667

I think you lost normal people when you started banging on about "Arrogant western privilege"

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121535406#Comment_121535406

Again, major injuries AFAIK are not exactly common. Even if we assume that serious injuries are 10 times more common than fatalities, that's still somewhere in the region of 98% of drivers who have nothing to do with it. As to my claim that footpaths are de-facto cycle lanes, that's just the reality I experienced as a daily pedestrian in Ireland's major cities. It would be nice if laws regulating the behaviour of cyclists were actually enforced, but as they say, it is what it is. Building more de-jure cycle lanes would be fine too, I have no issue with that.

And yes, those 3.3 million are drivers. The learners will be on the road learning, and AFAIK a pensioner will find it difficult to keep a license if they are in ill-health. There are health questions in every drivers license renewal form, and a variety of special conditions for the over 70s including a requirement for a doctors certification and in some cases the license is only good for 3 years, maybe even 1.

And while I do agree that not all drivers use their licenses as much, even those who currently don't have a car could rent or buy one at any time.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121539725#Comment_121539725

It's always interesting to hear the bloke who persistently downplays the dangers of speeding by motorists (one of the top causes of road deaths) calling for greater enforcement against cyclists.

Enforcement for thee but not for me.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121539730#Comment_121539730

Ah yes, you mean the same road deaths that 99+% of Irish drivers have nothing to do with? The same fatal incidents that are so rare that the average Irish driver would have to drive over 300,000,000 kilometres before being even involved in, let alone the cause of?

And the accusation of "Enforcement for thee but not for me" is ... amusing coming from a cyclist.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121539738#Comment_121539738

Okay SeanW, as someone already said ages ago, it's useless discussing anything with you. I should have taken their advice.

Last retort from me, no one is coming to take your car away. Sensible lower speed limits in urban areas will make roads safer, more friendly to pedestrians and cyclists, be better for the environment (pollution, noise, tyre pollution etc), make our cities nicer places to live.

It's going to happen anyway with or without your opinion. Hope you enjoy the benefits.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121539738#Comment_121539738

How rare are deaths and injuries with cyclists Seanie?

Chiparus

Sean I am an emergency worker , I am also a motorist, having owned Porsche 911 ( air-cooled),and numerous BMWs - the most exciting being a 335i.

I completely support the reduction of speed limits - especially in urban areas, all you are doing is speeding to get to the back of the next queue.

magicbastarder

Your periodical friendly reminder of how fast traffic moves in Dublin. It's 11am and there's essentially no traffic, and Google maps states that to drive from DCU to UCD is a 32 minute, 14km drive; an average of 26km/h. On roads which are nearly all 50km/h limits or greater.

magicbastarder

I suspect if Google made their data available, they'd be able to allow a rough estimate of how much difference a max of 30km/h would make in Dublin. Depends on how granular the data is I guess.

It'd just be a case of flattening the occasional spike where the cars go above 30 and hold them at 30.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121539725#Comment_121539725

You keep trotting out this thing that "98% of drivers aren't the problem why should *I* be impacted if I am a good driver". But that is simply not how public policy works. We legislate for the minority of cases, the "worst case" scenarios, so that people don't take the piss and die.