Why is the Irish Labour party such a failure ?

Bobtheman

Can't delete text above

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118840848#Comment_118840848

That's a rant, not an answer.

You were asked a very basic question and you can't answer it; and are instead dodging and trying to evade it.

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118839015#Comment_118839015

She wants legally binding gender quotas… https://www.ivanabacik.com/latest/women-on-boards-legally-binding-quotas-needed/

so she would advocate that the law as relates to equality and giving everyone a fair and equal opportunity should be ditched in favour of choosing people based on gender… discrimination based on gender..

that is a reason that Labour, who I have voted for previously, will never see a vote from me again, as long as she or someone of her ilk is in charge…who advocates actively discriminatory practices against one section of society to enable wellbeing of others…not democratic not legal, not principled not suitable…

Cal4567

Vaguely real?

Will you just quit the keyboard warrior put downs please.

I just present my case with the diminishing support of all the ordinary people who have deserted the labour movement. This has been continuously in process for decades and as far as The Labour Party is concerned, we're now heading towards endgame and Bacik will be its cheerleader heading you all over a cliff. She'll keep you in the idealogical bubble modern day Labour and it's identity politics has become.

It will never get you into power, and if you think it will, you are utter delusional.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118840908#Comment_118840908

You "answered" with a question and no actual incidents, which is what you were asked for. So you didn't actually answer.

You have no evidence, and you aren't going to find any evidence as this is entirely in your head.

You don't get to demand counter-evidence when you've nothing yourself. But what you're demanding wouldn't actually prove your point anyway

You know you can just admit you don't like someone just because you don't like them.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118840690#Comment_118840690

I already gave you one example

She's on the Six O'Clock News on RTE today supporting the (mostly male) P&O workers down the docks, btw.

 

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118840952#Comment_118840952

What you provided was not an answer to the question that you were asked, it was a pathetic deflection. I'm not going to Paxman on this, but you haven't answered the question - and you never will.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118840902#Comment_118840902

So if everyone has a fair and equal opportunity at present, why are women just 1 in 5 board members?

Are you telling us that the lads are four times better at being board members than women?

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118840970#Comment_118840970

I’m not telling you anything….but to argue the point you’d need to know what gender percentages applied for and we’re qualified for these positions.

but the way to tackle one facet of possible unfairness is not to engage in whataboutery…or discriminate against others.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118840996#Comment_118840996

There's no application process for board posts like these. If you move in the right circles, golf in the right clubs, you might get the invite,

It is obvious to anyone that there is huge discrimination built into the current system. Positive action measures are an appropriate response to such discrimination.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118840988#Comment_118840988

Are you continuing to ignore the example given?

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118841019#Comment_118841019

interesting that you might equate something illegal as ‘positive action’. :)

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118841045#Comment_118841045

Interesting that you think you know better about the illegality of something than a Trinity professor of law.

jmcc

It appears that Bacik wasn't expecting this from RTE. Sarah McInerney is a good journalist and she didn't leave Bacik off the hook.

https://www.rte.ie/radio/radio1/clips/22077234/

Regards...jmcc

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118841048#Comment_118841048

being qualified as a professor of law doesn’t equate to agreeing with or adherence with the law… it’s bull and bluster on her behalf.. do some research yourself and come back and tell us what you think. It’s illegal.

Best most suitable and qualified candidates as opposed to… “ ohhh, errr we should get a person of X gender “

great job by McInerney…. Bacik tried to absolutely bully her in the above interview, a disgraceful performance and attitude …refusing to answer questions almost as if she felt she was above accountability but with kind of an arrogant and aggressive manner and off-handing intonation in reply to some very excellent, straightforward, persistent and pertinent questioning…

Poor Ivana is not off to a great start. Labour’s small bounce may very well transfer into a further sinking of the ships for them in a short time… she’s unlikely to be the lifeboat that core labour people sought… and hoped for.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118845060#Comment_118845060

You do understand the difference between board positions and actual employment, right? And you do understand that we've had a quota in place for public sector board positions for years now, right? And you did see how she mentioned the other countries that passed legislation to enable similar measures, yeah?

I think I'll stick with the professor of law over the outraged on Boards when it comes to legality assessment.

jmcc

There's that Croppies Lie Down attitude about Trinity coming to the fore again. Labour also has a wider problem in that it has failed to take ownership of the Austerity it gleeflully imposed on Irish people during the 2011-2016 FG/Labour government. Bacik, as a Labour member of the anti-democratic Seanad, voted for these Austerity measures including the Irish Water tax. The electorate remembers and does not trust Labour. That's why Labour is on 5% in the latest RedC and between 3% and 4% in others. There was no Bacik bounce as RedC's sample is drawn from a panel of 40K voters that it thinks represents the electorate rather than being a random sample of the electorate. The 1% movement was just background noise within the Margin of Error.

The funny thing is how Labour's Stickie friends in RTE still try to present Labour as being a major political party rather than the mere fringe party that it is in reality.

Regards...jmcc

donaghs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118840970#Comment_118840970

There's a variety of reasons. As you mention there are traditional male networking old boy networks and golf clubs, etc.

But you can also look at large workplaces where women make up 50% of middle management, then drop off as you reach the top position. Sometimes men (in general) are more single-minded about things like career success, board positions etc, and are willing to neglect friends and family, etc to achieve it.

Going back to the OP, and the Labour Party. Terry Prone (someone I sometimes find insufferable) was on Newstalk last week being asked about how to make the Labour Party relevant again. She basically said the drop the "woke" stuff from their image. She called it the "liberal agenda". She said it was all very worthy stuff, but the big campaigns (divorce, gay marriage, etc etc ) had been won, and they needed to get back to bread and butter issues, like workers rights , the cost of living etc. Not intricasies of transgender athletes of colour. I think its sensible advice, but I cant see it happening. The Labour party was too weded to performative placard waving , rather than their original mission of making life better for all people, especially the worse off.

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118845949#Comment_118845949

she basically said the drop the "woke" stuff from their image...they needed to get back to bread and butter issues, like workers rights , the cost of living etc.

They've hardly elected the right leader if they want to go down that road, have they?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118845949#Comment_118845949

Terry has zero credibility. The "liberal agenda " wasn't done at the expense of bread and butter issues like low wages.

https://twitter.com/geraldnash/status/1500761428181102592?t=HjA7fnkSgFR6FPjJZmA6-w&s=19

And much as Terry might like to stymie future progress, the liberal agenda is far from a done deal.

Nice stereotyping on the women though.

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118845149#Comment_118845149

I never said she was an employee, what I’m saying is her appointment would have been partially influenced by gender, therefore discriminatory …the national womens council wish to bring in gender quotas.

eire4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118667816#Comment_118667816

Excellent post and I very much agree with your assessment there. It truly is very sad how far away from their origins Labour have strayed and the country is IMHO the worse off for it.

jmayo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118840970#Comment_118840970

Ahh FFS.

I see you are now getting hot and bothered about Labour, well Ivana anyway.

I guest it is a quite week as FGers and Leo hasn't shat the bed of late. 🙄

You kow damn well why there aren't more women on boards, why there aren't more women in top management roles in industry, etc.

It has to do with how women often take career breaks to raise families, decide not to spend long hours in work either really working hard and/or ar**licking to climb the old career ladder.

But no it is because when it comes time to select the board "the misogynists get together and only pick the men."

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118833055#Comment_118833055

To answer the OP's thread title question:

"if you think the Labour party have failed ?

You aint seen nothing yet."

Bacik is the worse leader possible, she hasn't been able to get elected until recently, she was only able ever to get "selected" to Seanad using her university.

I won't even grace it with the term "elected" as it is a closed shop of sorts.

She is the exact opposite of what the labour party needs to make it relevant and electable.

She is the definition of the well to do champagne socialist, although the socialist bit is even debatable as her entire political career if you want to even call it that, has been based around women's rights with a few other modern liberal agendas thrown in.

Her latest big drive has been to revoke the constitutional amendment that an overwhelming majority of the Irish electorate voted in favour of in 2004.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118668023#Comment_118668023

Bullcrap - Daffy fecking duck would have got a good result in 2017.

Corbyn was a huge problem as he was unpalatable to huge chunk of electorate, even long time labour voters.

Hell Labour lost seats they never lost before in primarily working class constituencies under his leadership.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118852049#Comment_118852049

I'm not getting not and bothered about Labour or Ivana. I've said that I don't think she's the right person to lead Labour at present.

I'm getting mildly warm about BS attacks on Ivana or Labour that aren't based on facts, like saying that the person who's won 3 or 4 very tightly contested Seanad contests 'hasn't been able to get elected'. That's just BS, as she absolutely HAS been elected. There are very few politicians that get elected on their first go. It is not unusual at all for politicians to take a number of attempts to get elected, whether to Council or Seanad or Dail. But it seems that the lads decided that Ivana is 'unelectable' despite the fact that she's been winning elections for about 15 years now.

As for blaming women for taking maternity leave, what has that got to do with Board appointments? Does it really matter whether you have 20 years expertise or 25 years expertise in what you can bring to a Board? You might be right on the arse licking though, perhaps they have more sense in general than to play those games.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118849837#Comment_118849837

'Women aren't generally interested in' board positions? Seriously? Where did you get that from?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118849128#Comment_118849128

I'm genuinely lost now. I don't know who the specific 'she' is that you're talking about here.

You indicated that her proposal for gender quota for PLC board positions was illegal. I'm trying to check how you worked this out, given that board positions are not employee posts.

Again, I can only suggest that you reconsider whether you know more about the legality or otherwise of her proposal than a Trinity professor of law would know.

jmayo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118852425#Comment_118852425

She got "elected" by the electorate of Dublin University i.e. all Irish citizen graduates (and some undergrads) of Trinity College and as far as I know ones that were also granted degrees on behalf of Trinity but in DIT.

It "elects" 3 senators so not as if she was the only one at any one time.

And for quite a while it has been a case where the senators are actual lecturers in Trinity e.g herself and David Norris.

So trying to spin it that she is this seasoned election winner is stretching it, when the electorate are just linked to the college that employs her.

Up until recently any time she stood before the normal electorate of this state she landed flat on her face.

And it wasn't just maternity leave I meant, but women actually giving up their jobs for a number of years.

Women taking maternity leave and continuing their careers I would say is a more recent thing over the last 2 decades or so.

Before that a lot of women would have left the workforce for a number of years and then returned.

And even a few years off in the wrong time of your career can have massive bearing on it.

Hell it was even worse a number of decades before when you had ridiculous situation where women were forced out of employment when they married.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118852601#Comment_118852601

Norris hasn't worked in Trinity since he got the Seanad seat. He's been on a disability payment from Trinity, strangely enough, while working as a Senator and even running for President. There is no requirement for Seanad candidates to be working in Trinity, as you can see from someone like Lynn Ruane. They need to be proposed by Trinity academics, but they don't need to be Trinity academics. There were 11 candidates when she first won her seat in 2007, so this isn't some tidy closed shop. It is a very competitive election. Try it yourself some day and see how easy it is to get yourself elected. She won again in 2011,2016 and 2020, a huge achievement.

Yes, lots of women WERE forced out of the workforce whether by their employers or because childcare was non-existent. And you think we should just sit back and say 'ah well, hey ho, that's why only 20% of PLC board members are women' what a shame, never mind?

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118845250#Comment_118845250

Labours stickie friends in RTE? Are you living in the 1980s

Jesus.......ivana is on the tonight show now......trying to 'sell' the " new cuddly labour" message...... i cant see it boding well into an election... there's no substance there

Sleepy

Bacik is a disastrous choice for Labour Party leader, she's a female supremacist that showed her colours as such during her shameful misrepresentation of her electorate during her time in Student Union politics, that had to be called out by David Norris for her sexist actions in the Seanad and that couldn't even win a Dáil seat when riding on the coat-tails of Eamon Gilmore's poll-topping performance in 2011. Labour won't be getting a vote from me as long as she's leader and it wouldn't surprise me at all if she failed to retain her seat tbh.

crossman47

I do agree she is the final naoil in the coffin of Labour because her primary campaign will be on liberal issues. That space is already taken and the abandonment of bread and butter issues means they will never reclaim seats in places they used to have them e.g. Kerry, Wicklow, Limerick, Cork city.