Why is the Irish Labour party such a failure ?

Ballycommon Mast

SF are only one General election away from having their leader in the office of Taoiseach, The Irish Labour party is the oldest political party in the country yet they've never even been the main opposition party like SF are today. When you consider that the modern day version of SF had only 1 Dail seat 25 years ago and 5 seats 12 years ago, it really is pathetic that Labour who had an 80 year headstart blew it all.

Who do Labour represent? Not working class Irish people. They stand for nothing and are fading into obscurity.

All identity politics, open borders and no substance.

Everlong1

Because Paddy doesn't do socialism, having had it bet into him by the priests for decades that Socialists are all heathen atheists and we can't be having Godless Reds under Paddy's bed.

Donald Trump

They are caught between our "right" parties actually being more centrist and then the loonies giving anything further left a bad name.

They also got decimated after a stint in government. I think they had a huge increase one election and then were crucified in the next.

(I'd say SF are more populist than socialist in reality tbf)

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118667642#Comment_118667642

the labour party are far from a socialist party, they latched onto neoliberal polices and ideologies, which in turn screwed over their intended base, and the rest is history.....

oceanman

they supported water charges......that finished them off and good riddance.

Labour chose to abandon workers and compete in the same market as FFG.

Their current plight is entirely self-inflicted.

It was only ever a meaningful party of labour for 10-15 years after its foundation.

Ballycommon Mast

Joan Burton sounded like a tory party minister when she was giving interviews around 2012/2015 about slashing lone parents allowance.

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118667672#Comment_118667672

Every political party is "populist" - they formulate policies to make themselves popular enough to get votes. As no one party can be all things to all voters, obviously parties chose which demographic is more likely to support them and they try and become 'popular' with them.

They all do it. It's politics.

Labour's problem (and I am an ex-party member and relative of a, now deceased, ex-LP TD) is they can't make up their minds who they wish to be popular with.

They forgot who founded them, and why they were founded.

They expect grass roots members of the party to also forget.

From 1932 they chose to place themselves in the position of eternal mudguards when they could have chased Connolly's legacy and positioned themselves as socialist republicans whose primary goal was the protection of working people by creating a genuine republic. They utterly failed to do so.

But the real issue is the LP seem to be unable to learn the lesson of when and why they gain seats - it was every time the electorate wanted a genuine change in Irish politics.

After every spin of the FF/FG Boom/Bust merry-go-round the LP would be shouting and roaring what many of the electorate were saying, gain a load of seats, then hop on the same bloody merry-go-round,

Each and every time the LP hitched it'self to same old same old, claimed to be protecting workers while it's ministers signed off on swingeing cuts. And were decimated in the next election.

Problem was they were really the only viable Left party in the State (not that they were particularly Left as a party, but they did have individual TDs who were).

The difference now is there are alternative parties on the Left. Soc Dems are positioning themselves as what the LP should be. PBP represent those further left, and SF are hoovering up the angry votes that used to swing to the LP.

Stooping to comments about "loonies" really just shows, imo, that you have difficulty understanding how fed up people are with 100 years of the same FF/FG shite.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118667816#Comment_118667816

"Populist" has a meaning. Wikipedia is a starting point for anyone confused. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Populism

For an even quicker overview, simple English wikipedia is here https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Populism

Butson

They haven't learned the lessons of the colleagues in British Labour under Corbyn.

All this identity politics nonsense. Look at Aidan O'Riordain's twitter page. Appeals to the upper middle classes as opposed to the working class.

Niche.

WrenBoy

'Frankfurt's Way or Labour's Way" ... that was the end for them

Ballycommon Mast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118667880#Comment_118667880

Corbyn wasn't really the problem for the British labour party, they got a very good result in the 2017 general election under his leadership. It all went tits up for the British labour party when a second Brexit referendum became their policy.

CrabRevolution

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118667816#Comment_118667816

The "Every political party is populist" is such a bogus and blatantly untrue argument. Anyone who uses it clearly doesn't know what populist means.

If all politics is populism, why do they bother having 2 different words for it? And at that, 2 words that have 2 totally different meanings.

jmcc

Too many YATSEs (Yet Another Teacher Seeking Election) and a betrayal of the people that the party was set up to protect.

Regards...jmcc

rock22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118667816#Comment_118667816

I think you sum it up very well,, Bannasidhe.

But in addition, they got onto the same band wagon as FFG in spurning any advance from SF regarding coalition talks. They were clearly happier with talking to FF and FG . In that situation they reinforced their irrelevance because if they were not going to participate in a broadly left leaning government that what was the point of the Labour party. There was a time when Labour would have been agitating to lead such a broad coalition.

Kelly didn't help pushing the water charges, even after the government fell. Any shift from general taxation to individual charges is a transfer of wealth from the less well off to the better well off but Labour either couldn't see that or refused to recognise it.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058234055/why-is-the-irish-labour-party-such-a-failure

If you look at politics through the lens of achieving change, well Labour have achieved far more than any of the smaller parties. The only one to come close in those terms are the Greens. As for Sinn Fein, they have yet to achieve anything of note, other than stopping killing people.

It is true that Labour lost the opportunity to permanently replace FF, but they have a long list of reform achieved in government, going back decades.

youd want a short memory to not know what happened labour, they served as a FG shield after the FF economic disaster

and for some reason the electorate hold them more responsible than either

POBox19

Labour politicians, over years spent in the refined atmosphere of Dail Eireann, have acquired tastes for the trappings of the good life in fine dining, sharp suits and fat expense accounts. They have come so far from their roots that they have forgotten where the party came from. In 1974 Charles J. Haughey TD referred to them as 'Smoked Salmon Socialists' while they were in a coalition with FG. Had Labour taken him seriously they would not be languishing in the polls today.

timmyntc

Labour shifted to become the party of middle class Dublin (similar with the green party).

Appealing more to champagne socialists than the working class & trade unionists of their old base.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118668172#Comment_118668172

They had 2 very good runs under Spring and Gilmore after 1974.

Labours current problem was most of their talent is now gone. The likes of Rabbite, Gilmore and Quinn (all Democratic Left I think) were formidable politicians and they should have collapsed the government when Gilmore stepped down instead of going with Burton who campaigned as a more ardent FGer than their own when the election came.

jmcc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118668209#Comment_118668209

Labour is very much the Irish Times/RTE dinner party now. It is not the party of the Dublin middle classes though. The Greens are essentially, as someone described them, "FG on bikes". There was an influx of the type of people who would have formerly joined Labour after Labour imploded int 2016 and they, in true Stickes/Labour fashion, tried to take over the Greens and replace Eamon Ryan but, much like Labour, failed. The Greens are very different from the continental Greens who tend to be more Left-wing and almost Communist. The Irish Greens are more Right-wing. The problem for Labour is that in its move to the Right, Labour became more extreme than FG. It is now competing for the same Right of centre votes as FF/FG/Greens. It has also been replaced at the trade union by SF. There isn't really a political niche for the party now and its TDs are simply elected on their own personal vote rather than on any ideologically Labour party vote.

Regards...jmcc

El_Duderino 09

I think they spend time fighting tomorrow's battle. They were pro gay rights when gay sex was illegal and they were ridiculed for it. Now the entire rest of the political parties have caught up with them and supported gay marriage recently. But people still remember Labour as gobshytes rather than saying "on reflection, Labour were decades ahead of the rest of politics in Ireland". Same with other issues like abortion and wequsl rights.

They sometimes sacrifice political expediency for being right. But you don't get seats in the Dail by being right, you get seats by saying the words that make more people vote for you. They're not as good at that as the other parties.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118668365#Comment_118668365

There was a big failure of leadership surrounding gay marriage and abortion. Both of those should have been hammered home as Labour referendums because as you say Labour were fighting for them while everyone else was still under the bishops thumb.

Amazing that FG of all people got the credit in the end.

Mike Murdock

Labour were always Smoked-Salmon Socialists targeting fellow Middle Class "Socialists". The Workers Party were the only real Socialist party and they never moved the needle in elections.

Sinn Fein are heading in the same direction as Labour, now that they have rebranded as "Woke" Fein. Or at least pulled the wool over some people's eyes that they are Woke.

landofthetree

Why would "working class" people vote for them?

They already pay no tax and get loads of welfare.

SF will give you even more.

Eg

A couple on 45k with 2 kids pay no tax when you include the children allowance. What more will Lab do for you? **** all. Might as well vote SF or PBP.

breezy1985

"woke" Fein 🤣 jeysus it's not even a good play on words

Diceicle

IMO Labour dont represent working class interests. They latch onto identity politics issues rather than substantive topics that impact all working people.

They represent the interests more of the (sterotypical) South Dublin voter rather than a shop worker or someone on the average industrial wage.

Simply Fine Gaelers with a guilty conscience.

Green Finers

If SF get into power, I will put as much of my assets I legally can out of reach offshore.

They will destroy the country.

They will shatter any chance of a peaceful United Ireland by alienating the Protestant and unionist community.

SF are yes men and women. They only say what they think the electorate want to hear. They were anti-EU for as long as I can remember and as soon as Brexit happened they suddenly changed their tune.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118668520#Comment_118668520

I think they represent the interests of poorer people ( well, society at large including poor people) but they talk like middle class, educated people -because that's what they are. Isn't it interesting that they're most successful in leafy, South Dublin? People who are generally doing alright and are happy to vote for a party that will probably tax them a bit more to provide services for the less well off. And somehow both Labour and the South Dublin voters are seen as gobshytes rather than people who are happy to put their money where their mouth is for a better country.

Maybe people think Labour should learn to ham up North side Dublin accents and forget their grammar and start exchanging th for d in their speech, but I doubt that would make their detractors happy either. I think they're authentic - and authenticity doesn't usually win elections.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118668441#Comment_118668441

Yeah that's probably a fair assessment. They really should.have hammered home that this was their issue for decades send the other parties had a last minute conversion the weeks before the referendum when it was clear it was popular.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118668458#Comment_118668458

Whereas the likes of Mary Lou, Paul Murphy and RBB dragged themselves up from being barefoot on the streets................

oceanman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118668536#Comment_118668536

i think its "when" rather than if.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118668623#Comment_118668623

You're right of course but it's the cultural/intellectual style of a certain kind of South Dublin liberal which sticks in people's craw, not whether they went to Trinity or come from wealth.

Desmond Fennell wrote about this in 'Nice People and Rednecks' and his other books.

landofthetree

The Lab party stood aside during the 1918 election and the next one.

In the local elections in 1920 they got 394 seats to SFs 550.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1920_Irish_local_elections

There is a strong case that standing aside in those elections held Lab back for decades afterwards.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118668623#Comment_118668623

Ture that they weren't born poor, but so what? Why is not being born poor held against the people who advocate for people less fortunate than themselves?

Should only people born poor advovare for the poor? The UK has a situation where they have a party of people generally born very wealthy who advocate for people like themselves and I don't think that's a more desirable situation.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118668664#Comment_118668664

Never understood why people don't want their politicians to be intellectual. I always find there is a lot of reverse snobbery going on in regards to politics.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118668712#Comment_118668712

It was a response to someone going on about "Smoke salmon socialists".

I actually had to google who the current Labour leader is to check and is Alan Kelly whose father was a small farmer from Tipperary who quit dairying to work on the roads for the local county Council. He attended Nenagh CBS.

MLM, on the other hand grew up as the daughter of a surveyor and builder. She attended a private secondary school.

RBB was brought up by an accountant and attended the well known D4 Rugby school St. Michaels

Paul Murphy's father was a senior manager in Mars Ireland and PM attended the fee paying St. Killian's and later the Institute up on Leeson Street.

Which of the above four do you think would have been least likely to have been brought up on smoked-salmon?

Bobtheman

They were the second biggest party in 2011 if im not mistaken. Any party going into power that year would have lost seats.

They gave the impression they would avoid cuts and burn the bondholders. I know their manifesto said differently but xho reads those?

Without labour in power FG wouldn't have raised taxes as much. The poor would have suffered even more. More cuts in public expenditure.

There is still a good 25% of the electorate who believe wrongly that all national debt down to banks. That all cutbacks could have been avoided.

The same electorate who pay **** all tax at lower levels but expect everyone else to pay for everything

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118668773#Comment_118668773

Kelly, if we're going by the heuristic that farmers, rural people and road workers are less likely eat smoked salmon.

I never understand the objection to smoked salmon socialist. Someone who is wealthy is entitled to spend money on nice things. Somehow that's turned into an insult when they advocate for better services for people with less than themselves.

It's seen as hypocrisy or a contradiction, but it doesn't bare a moment's scrutiny. They have money, but advocate for people with less than themselves. Why would that be a contradiction? Isn't thst precisely the kind of thing politicians are supposed to do? Arent they specifically not supposed to only look after people like themselves or the wealthiest in society?

It's an accusation that's only made against people who advocate for those with less than themselves.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118668813#Comment_118668813

They are not people from wealthy backgrounds who go into social care etc. to actually help people. Instead they are people who see the "lower classes" from across the river as their own little pathway to politics. That is the connotation.

MLM for example could have stayed in her actual "home" constituency and tried to make a change there. But she didn't - she moved to either North or central Dublin to try to get elected if my memory serves me correctly. I am sure that there were people in her home constituency who were equally as deserving of representation .... she just had a better chance of getting herself a cushy number by parchuting into other areas and have "useful idiots" there vote for her

MLM could try to get elected in South Co. Dublin and still advocate for "working classes". She could leave her seat then open for someone within the other constituency to get elected. That way the people would have their local representative working on their behalf, and also have good support from another representative elsewhere .......

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118668762#Comment_118668762

Michael D. Higgins is intellectual, popular, unassuming and from Clare/Galway as an example of someone who is an intellectual but not of the 'type' I'm describing.

Like I said it's a certain kind of affected South Dublin cultural/intellectual style that many people don't like. 'The D4 set' etc.

Some of it is reverse snobbery, some of it a natural reaction to a kind of charmless intellectual vanity coupled with class assumptions. Sometimes it takes a Dub v countryside form.

It may be unfair but the perception is there.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118668874#Comment_118668874

He also comes with a box

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118668887#Comment_118668887

???

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118668934#Comment_118668934

A reference to the Presidential debate where he famously stood on a box behind his lectern on RTE

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118668842#Comment_118668842

OK. So if the people who want to advocate for the poor all stay in social care, then who will help the poor?

My mrs works in that kind of area. She trained to lead a service so she can actually help people by setting standards, training, adapting the services so they can meet evolving needs, learning from analogous services in other areas or countries. Is she helping people or is she someone who sees the "lower classes" from across the river as their own little pathway to management? Is that the connotation for everyone who goes into management or administration of social services?

What about of my mrs goes higher in the service and manages a regional or national service? Is she then helping more people or just using more idiots? What about going into politics to actually help shape policy to help even more people? Somehow that has even worse connotations, in your view. Better staying as a minimum wage care assistant - the only place to do this work without any connotations and with absolutely no influence over policy or how it's managed

PommieBast

I'm not exactly up to speed with Irish political history but to me Labour supposedly represented the union movements, which is pretty much endangered if not already extinct out in the wild (i.e. outside the public sector). Labour still have a few loyalist but on the whole they are fishing in that pool of voters that are just interested in the public spending promise auction.

Tony EH

When they started shilling for Fine Gael and pushing for the privatisation of our water infrastructure, that was probably the end of them as far as a lot of their supporters were concerned. It's astonishing that there are people like Alan Kelly now at the head of the table and moan Joan had never really had much support from Labour's traditional base. Plus there's a raft of nothing people floating around like Aodhán O'Riordáin.

They're adrift now in a sea of uncertainty because of the ill-thought out decisions a few years ago and fully deserve to be where they are.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118668965#Comment_118668965

Is your missus cynically trying to get elected off the back of the people across the river?

MLM could still push to help "working class" people even if she was getting elected via votes from Rathgar - no? Surely that would be a real instrument for change? But she doesn't. She parachutes into an area and takes the votes that they might otherwise give to a local who would actually know the people. And sure then they would have Mary across the river to back them up when she got elected in Rathgar.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118669192#Comment_118669192

Water services shouldn't be privatised. But there definitely should be water charges based off usage.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118669213#Comment_118669213

Yeah, that was the fantasy.