Accounts attached - The current reality facing beef farmers - Any advice?
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Everyone is telling the other person to reduce, cut , cull change to organic. Completely change everything that his father has set up after a single year farming.
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another option I’d be seriously considering in the ops situation is to trim back the cow numbers to around 60 and run a good Angus bull and finish everything.
I think it has become obvious to most posters that running 75 sucklers on 250ac and working his FT job is unsustainable. Something has to give. I had asked the OP were the quoted figures a trend or just for last year. I think he replied on previous page. I also don't think anyone, certainly not me anyway, is advocating that the OP makes drastic changes in all areas straight away. However, reducing numbers is one way to give himself a bit more room to find time for work/life, reduce pressure on the grass so he is able to bank some round bales to use/sell and/or extend grazing season. Depending on how busy he is at calving a change of bull could help too.
We've all given him plenty of options. But we don't know the farm or much about it so it's really up to himself to sift through all the posts and figure out the route he wants to take.
The biggest advantage he has over most is that he is getting his hands on the reigns at a stage in life where he should have a few years of relative freedom before marriage/kids etc take over and he can spend some time now at this stage figuring out the direction to go at a steady pace.
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This is it the farm needs to be manageable if you are working
No point killing yourself on top of a job just to be sending money to the coop or revenue
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@James2020App - I might have missed it in the thread, but what is the breeding of your sucklers and what bull do you use? Would you know what your mature cow weight would be?
Do you calves require much intervention at birth and early life?
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It is the dream for any farmer really to have his problem which can be so easily solved with a few changes .Like not too many farmers in the whole country have 250 acres in one block!!
The one thing which would be a sin would to be to put any of it in forestry ,I would rather have rough grazing in some wet spots
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Yeah in fairness maybe €15k of those costs could be split across a few years. Yeah you are correct in the decent capital allowances available, just at the minute don't really have that much that needs improved in the sheds. Maybe actually new chutes and handling equipment come to think of it, but nothing major needed. Yeah good point regarding more focus on profit than output.
Yup suckers are inherently unprofitable as I am noticing. To be honest even in prior years when I did the accounts for the farm they were not profitable then neither.
The one thing that will be maximised going into the future is paddocking.
This is a very valid point that I have never thought off before. Plus the heavy subsidies from the government make the problem was. And hands up I am definitely in the batch that somewhat waste their subs.
Cheers, yeah step one is figuring out where I am at, and have already done that so now to search for where to go from here. Again I do need to focus more on paddocks.
Oh yeah in genomics scheme so have a very good idea of genomics and ICBF records. This will assist in figuring which cows to keep etc. Already have an easy calving bull, thank God. Better having living calves than impressive hard calving calves.
Not fully sold on the forestry, although there is maybe 30/35 acres marginal which I would give it consideration for.
Organics scares me in a way because unless dedicate the whole farm to organics or to split it half organic half not. Can just imagine would be very difficult to manage records and manage everything, like not spreading fertiliser in certain fields etc.
This is true and would be a few thousand less here too as in GLAS.
From a rational viewpoint the short answer is definitely yes.
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hes an accountant with 250 acres, everyone’s telling him he’s not going to be able to run it part time and that’s pure bull-sh1t.
a well set up place with a part time labour unit and everything invested back into the farm for a few years. He’s 28 mortgage and other commitments are more than likely a few years off so he has time to develop and set it up so by the time he’s 40 he should have everything streamlined and in top spec.
he can of course just kick the can down the road and take the easy option, rent it out partially, go organic and let the wild flowers grow. When he hits forty he can consider whether he wants to fix everything back up properly, but it’ll probably take a crazy amount of investment and the thoughts and enthusiasm will have weaned enough at that stage to just let it all go.
he’s an accountant that should be able to work out how far he can use the farm for tax and investment. I’d push to have everything ready and in top condition.
after a couple more years working in an accounting role and I’d say he will appreciate going farming and maybe doing a few books as the part time hobby.
but it’s each to their own, the decision he makes now will determine where he’s at years down the line.
for me it would be•
sort out your costs
sort out the calving spread
breed the right type whether he goes the weanling route or finishing
invest everything back in until you’ve everything perfect.
re-assess in three years time and decide then.
youve a60k cushion more than likely rising to give you the opportunity to get going right.
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A new John Deere? Nah if going to that extreme would go Fendt, really make a statement there 🤣. Wouldn't want to get any muck on it then though, although would look well outside the house. (Thinking about it would probably cost as much as the house itself....)
There is a good degree of truth in this. Jumping from one system to another doesn't always make the most sense over the long term. No point in getting years of experience in one area to drop it with a view to making money in another area that may be a short term profit opportunity.
The main breeds are charolaois and limosines. The beasts on the farm and all those leaving it are generally pretty good. I am thinking off staying moreso with the LM, because they are easier calving and although sometimes a bit mad are pretty good mothers from what I have seen of them.
Finishing them all is an option. To an extent bringing them to decent weanlings and then selling oftentimes is giving the man buying them in the mart the main cut of what is a two year process.
Totally willing to tweak current system, just trying to brainstorm really here how best to tweak.
I do not feel as if I am overstocked when you divide the no. of cows to the amount of land available. However I do feel as if I am overstocked if you divide the no. of cows to the labour units that I have available, if that makes any sense?
Yeah long story short, I have not been keeping a good enough eye on cost control.
Trying to increase output on a suckler farm does not always seem to be the best way to increase profitability as have found out.
Think 30 may be a bit on the low side for the size of the farm. If went to 30 part would have to be leased or something along those lines. Totally appreciate it is a more manageable number though and could yield to a better work/farm life balance too.
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Yeah it is indeed a long winter. No too ways about it and the main enemy up here is the rain. It is just pretty consistent and there is the battle that is had every Spring. Spring to early Autumn is no problem but any other time not near possible to keep animals out so longer winter in really.
Yeah agree with you on the not so much overstocking more the length of the winter does drive up the input costs a bit.
Yup this is the crux of the problem that I am currently grabbling with and trying to find a way out to make it better.
Yeah going to be a hell of a lot more concerned with costs going forward and properly cut them down.
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Okay few things here, I do think I am understocked. Not going to lie the more I read the responses and compare what I am doing with the average farmer. It is becoming apparent over the past few years have been just throwing money at problems rather than getting a calculator out and doing a cost benefit analysis of what I am doing and what I am trying to achieve.
I probably have been overly intensive in some of the fields, really pushing them with fertiliser going for three cuts. Overdoing it on the ration given to animals sold as weanlings (Although getting good prices, but the prices were probably given due to overfeeding them) and being to be honest buying way in excess of what was needed with straw.
The fertiliser and the contractor are a linked problem. Quickly realising that taking too much input from contractor on how to run farm rather than putting my foot down and saying who is the boss regarding what gets fertilised etc. Just going into future a good few lessons to be learned here. It is so easy though to overdo it on expenses. I've learned my lesson and it is a good one to learn really.
Part of me doesn't want to address this, but very valid questions
😂
because the answers hurt.
Possibly worth a bit more, that is an return of investment of under one percent. Ya no wage is kind of a killer now. If you divide the profit by the no. of hours would paint a bleak picture of an average wage.
The rental money would be a lot larger than €15k.
Ya looking at numbers alone it is irrational.
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On average there almost always has been on average about three bags to the acre put on the ground here. The thing with the price increase of fertiliser is going to put a stop to excessive fertiliser use like this. It will be used here less and probably just decrease suckler numbers a bit and hold off at two silage cuts rather than three.
This is an option in the short to medium term, would really help with buying a house etc.
The insurance cost is exceptionally high. There is a reason behind that. There is a public right of way through a portion of the land. It is being used extensively by various passers by including equine traffic and tourists. Long story but insurance company were alerted to this few years ago when they came out and public liability on that crap is far from cheap. Mainly to cover ourselves.
And the FT job and the cows being split between the two is part of the problem yes.
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Cheers. Yeah first few years is a steep learning curve alright. Good points actually. Yeah another one-off expense coming up soon will be lime, but be for a long term gain that.
Oh don't worry many mistakes being made here along the way too. Yeah been doing okay this year on selling weanlings. Got ok prices for them in past few weeks. Soil testing is something that may help. Have done bits and bobs as requirements for various schemes. Did not do it systematically though. In saying that with the previous fertiliser use in some of the meadows, this is probably a job that is crying out to be done and likely to save a lot in the future with it.
Thanks for the more serious response, this probably means I can't buy that Fendt though unfortunately 😄.
Yeah right now my primary job is my number one concern. The farm comes second. My work aren't even aware that I farm to be honest. Try as much as possible to keep those things separate for the very reasons you outline above.
Absolutely down the line something will have to give with family etc.
Fair play and well done to yourself they are impressive figures at the end of it for you. Yeah you are right long-term what I am doing is not sustainable. Mentioned earlier that stress from farming it and full time-wrok put father into bad health and definitely acutely aware that doing similar myself and absolutely not sustainable. So going to spent weekend and bit longer figuring out what to do on it.
Again if was making up figures would be lower. That 5k was broken down in post 14 (https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118636182/#Comment_118636182) , contractor bill in post 130 (https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118654718/#Comment_118654718) also reseeding about 15 acres , insurance bill in my last post. Can't remember were mentioned it but a good chunk of the ration bill was carried over from 2020 as was final payment on bill to co-op for meal that was used to finish weanlings in 2020.
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Excellent thread @James2020App .
Focus has to be on getting the system to run on 15-20 hrs a week. Maybe a bit more around calving
Simplify the work, and this should should help the cost base of things. Grass grass and making the best use of grass. I will have a big chunk of pit silage left over. I still will make enough and have a buffer of it for year to year, especially needed on heavy ground. Ps with the stock numbers you have hopefully you have the option of pit over bales.
Paddocks have the potential to help greatly as it will leave good grass ahead of stock, opportunities to take out surpluses instead of topping. Flexibility in the design can leave it very workable with silage and the use of a few strip wires
Reducing Suckler numbers is key on both the financial and time front. I have cut them back by 50% over the past 5 years due to the time they eat and returns.
Rome wasnt built in a day, set the goalposts and work towards them. Feel free to drop a DM
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All very good advice, I appreciate it. This is exactly what I am going to to do, sit down and make a plan of action on how best to approach it. A fortunate position to be in in many regards, think the only way is to downsize a bit and figure out what to do from there.
Or both :) need to make a profit first though....
About 40% Charoloais, 40% Limousine, then a bit of a mix of the remaining tenth. Use two bulls - easy calving but decent calves. Generally the LM do not require much attention, the charoloais' a bit more. Getting some of those lazy beggars to suck can be a torture. This is why I have a preference for LM. After two days old and they start to suck the cow, not much intervention needed. So long as no scour.
Mature weights hard to give an average but maybe around 720kg for LM the 760kg for CH.
Yeah I am fortunate to have found myself in this situation to be honest. Part of me wants to keep the farm going even a portion of it in some capacity.
I may put a small bit into forestry, but definitely not any of the good ground. It is one of the options.
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Thanks, the challenge for me right now is getting to the stage that the farm functions with one part-time labour unit. I actually would have no problem hiring someone part-time but the farm has to be profitable before can do that.
I would be happy out to reinvest into the farm, problem is that any profit is going to be taxed at 48% so would be more than content to invest in farm infrastructure, not in excessive costs though. That is what I have been doing over the past few years. Could even possibly set whole thing up as a company and long term get reliefs if selling company on with assets intact.
The organic idea isn't sitting too well. It would be okay if the ground was of lower quality, but think bit of a sin to leave one like this to absolute ruin on the elements. Think within twenty years would be maybe covered in rushes. If take a notion then to fix would cost a bomb. I would almost rather lease it out.
Oh I already appreciate farming and really like it, more than the day job in fact. It is a lot more entertaining for the most part.
Agree going to cut costs, focus on tightening calving season, using paddocks & probably decrease suckler numbers.
Thanks, yeah as mentioned above focus is on decreasing the work required to get to a part-time labour unit. Of course with more in certain times of year, be it silage or calving.
Grass management is a skill will have to work on. Yeah already have a pit and am in a similar position as yourself will probably have a good quarter of a pit left over. Fortunately can drive into pit from both sides, so will be the first used next year.
I actually have to dig out greencert books again. I did it about four years ago, did it in evenings and didn't really pay any attention to the material on it. Was working very late with dayjob on most nights and just put on the webcam on. So have actually try to get understanding of few things that I should already know.
Yeah step by step is best way of doing it.
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On the lazy calves, are you giving pre calving minerals to the cows, even oats 4-6 weeks pre calving.
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If you use pigtails to split a field into paddocks (2-3 days grazing with 21-28 days growing) it will leave things easier for working (topping, slurry, lime), just positioning the drinker to suit
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Yeah the cows are getting pre-calving minerals about two months prior to caving. They are also getting fed straw rather than silage about two days a week as well, a few months prior to calving.
Good point on the pigtails.
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OP, you are earning 75k. You have a BPS of around 40k and your farming work is bringing you in -10k. You have 250 acres? (I haven't read all the pages of the thread).
If you set enough of the place on a 10 year lease, along with the entitlements, as much as would be 30k into your pocket free of income tax (for as long as the entitlements last). that's near enough as good to you as a 60k raise in your job.
You can then run a minimum amount of animals across the rest of it as a hobby to keep collecting the payments on it. You could also run that side of things at a loss to make investments and get the place into good shape (and use it to write down your tax on the 75k). Maybe even burn enough to get you out of any high rate of income tax (you still have the 30k from above in your arse pocket). Then max out whatever grants you can and maybe build up your yard.
All the above is hypothetical of course.
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A lot of people have good jobs and enjoy their farm on the side.
As a part time farmer myself I couldn’t see the rationale for letting out any of the family farm as in my opinion you lose control of the thing that you enjoy more than your day to day job.
I really think less cows of a smaller size are the way to go here with an Angus bull as they will cost a lot less to maintain and be easier calved etc and a lot more marketable to the factory and finish off grass under 24 months
Lets say 50 handy sized cows with progeny to beef.
Aim to finish off grass and move calving to April and May when the days are longer and they can calf outside.
You could buy handy dairy cross heifers and finish if they are cheap in a given year to add to the gross profit.
As an accountant you could assess the benefit/ reward of running a quad and a jeep
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The problem with handy cows is handy calves. HE bull is probably a better bet than AA just in the extra weight. LMX cross cows if you can get the right ones.
A few thoughts I agree with late March/April calving as it pushes everything outdoors,however at 18 months at start of second winter these cattle will still be less than 500 kgs. The cost is f winter finishing is horrendous. Do you carry over the winter and finish at 26-28 months off grass. You would be wintering 150 cattle if you had 50 cows. You could finish sh heifers but would they kill 280DW they be netting 1230 at a base of 4.2/kg. Bullocks killed off grass at 26-28 months at 350kgs@ a base of 4.1 is 1500 euro. Your net turnover is 67 k
However you would probably get there not the new AIBP scheme which would add another 6k, the government proposed slaughter for under 24 months of 200 euro qdds 2.5 k. So you would be touching 75 k.
I just cannot see the economics in Suckler cows. If you get you cow costs down to 500/ cow you still have the yearling to finishing costs
I am still not seeing the reduction in costs making it viable. Can the cattle being lighter still give you a 40 day shorter winter period. I still think that if your land is as good as you say a weanling to yearling finishing system is more attractive.
I just cannot make the Suckler numbers work.
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At 28 your at your prime, work is no bother to you and you must be working dam hard to be doing what your doing. But Jesus lad there is more to life than slaving away at what your at. Hopefully your parents are still young and able to look after themselves, you have no kids yet, so my suggestion is take 2 years out yourself and your young lady and head off and make some memories together, a campervan in Australia, Routh 66 in the US Travel Europe, sell all stock and buy in 60 or 70 x dairy Heifer calves and let them run away there for 2 years and do a deal with a friend or family to look after them in exchange for some grazing or whatever works you will come back regenerated with a few stories to tell to your kids in time to come.
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suckler numbers can work (but so will you) don’t think people really understand the full work with sucklers - calving, tagging, dehorning, getting calves to suck (albeit it’s 1 in 10/15 but that one will take a lot of time), dosing during summer (separating calves from cows just to get at the calves is a job in itself), getting them in calf, weaning, castrating), meal feeding if ticking the beep box - it’s feckkng non-stop really. And that’s not even mentioning the 3am calvings!!
if you don’t have proper calving sheds with lie back then March April is probably the best option but the money in sucklers comes with the heavy 450-500+kg killed off grass with minimal meal at 29.5 months - again only good quality continental cows will deliver this.
Beef price typically peaks in June and starts dropping from there so you’re trying to hit the balance of price v weight but cattle need the age to achieve maximum kill out. A March April calf will probably average 400kg if killed in July august whereas a Jan-feb could be 50-100 kg heavier. But you need good grazing ground with paddock system to achieve this. That’s where the numbers add up in sucklers. I’ve often hit €2300/2400 for steers but usually it’s around average €2k with a €4kg base.
All Price depending of course and at the mercy of factories with weight restrictions by times too.
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There is some amount of work in 75 sucklers, the 30k in meal is about 80 tonnes.
Feeding that alone is a big job.
The slurry must be rocket fuel
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I agree but if he calves in January/February he is feeding a cow and calf for 8-12weeks inside. As well straw in Donegal is 10-15/ bake dearer than in Westmeath which is a five dearer than Wexford. His winter is 4-6 weeks longer than most of the rest of the country. Lighter cows may shorten his winter but you scarfice turnover between weight and late calving.
OP another consideration is to rent 150 acres and farm 100 acres. You could start to set this up and finesse a system that works. If tax becomes an issue you can put the farming part without the land in a company format. Any stick and machinery can go in at present book value. You can actually treat this book value as a loan to the company and take it out tax free in the future.
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@Bass Reeves - what numbers of weanlings would you think he should/could run on that farm? From memory, you are able to purchase all your own directly. I'd say that due to work constraints James would need to purchase via a dealer, if going that route. Drystock will be a lot less work than sucklers although a significantly reduced suckler herd could still be run if James want to keep his hand in with them.
For going with sucklers...
You don't need to be playing in the premier league. Your subs and job give you sufficient income that basically all you need from your stock is that they stay on their feet until they get through the sale ring. There is a thing about producing show quality calves with big @rses and its a risky game. They get the big prices because they put it into them in the first place - but they need the big money. If you can go to a reduced input system, then you can still produce decent calves - they won't be show winners - but they'll not embarrass you at the mart and you'll get as good a price comparatively for your level of input.
I still think that if you are planning on having 20+ sucklers calving then for yourself help would be needed, at least PT. Even just throwing a few bob at a sensible fella to help feeding and bedding up. Have you a calving camera in you calving shed? If not get one installed. Have you anyone to calf them if you are at work?
I am not a fan of renting out land on medium/long term leases as there is a lot of headache with it from missing payments, neglect, ill will, etc. I've seen land coming back where the money earned in rent would be needed to get it back into shape. I'm not saying don't rent, but think long and hard about how you go about it.
I think a system where James still holds the land, but either makes bales for sale or sells grass in situ for silage and then rents over winter for grazing could be a option to consider. Yes, there would be a bit more management with it. However, it would allow James to rotate the fields to be rented and have tighter control on the care of the land. If someone doesn't play fair, then that is them black-balled for next year. Get a good guy and you are in a position to work with them on the fees to keep them.
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Cow needs minimal extra feeding with a calf from 0-8 week calf. I give less than 1kg of nuts to the earlier calvers and actually only silage to the later ones. It’s silage only and a cow turns inside out from within two weeks of being let out. Straw bill is minimal in a lie back scenario. I use 15 bales per year on 20 January calvers.
but it’s all about the variables. My ground, whilst heavy land is great grazing ground so I get serious summer thrive and it’s all in one block in paddocks.
sucklers are working for me but I’ll go back to the single biggest advantage I have is a family member and a very good neighbour to keep an eye during calving. Even to have someone hold a cows tail is invaluable and if I didn’t have this support I wouldn’t even have my 20.
I give the Neighbor a hand drawing in bales in summer and I look after the family member too (all non cash transactions!!!!)
in my view it’s not even feasible for the OP to even calve 30 cows working full time off farm without a good support at home and I’m sure OP is realising this too. It’s no fun being up at 3am with cow calving and then up at 6am to go to work yourself and then face into it in the evening when he gets home. No money pays that.
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But in alot of respects you seem well placed-not overly stocked and reasonable output but it's your costs are killing the system.you need to tackle your costs first and find out where money can be saved. If after a couple of years you have no impact on your costs then change the system.whatever system you have if you carry the costs with you you will struggle.
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If he has 80 cows he could carry 80 weanling/yearlings and 80 two years old finishing. Buying is not the chore you think especially with Friesians. I recommend a weanling/yearling to finish as opposed to a store to finish which I have.
You could buy you cattle in two bunches half in the Autumn and half in the late winter early spring. He could even let some to buy in May as prices soften after the spring grass fever the hat lads suffer from.
Why Friesian. At present weanling/light yearlings are 250-300 less than HEx or AAx cattle. Friesians come into the ring in larger bunches and bunches here is no dealer gra for them compared to coloured calves. He has is also operating in Donegal which should have cheap access to these type of cattle. As well if he see value in coloured weanling( Suckler runners especially) he could purchase some of these in spring.
As I posted earlier these can be bought at present for 350-500 euro. Giving a gross margin 950- 1k euro/ head when finished he have a gross total margin of 75-80 k to takes costs out of. His turnover would be as high as 110k. It's quite possible he could even push beyond that to a 150+150 stocking rate when he has the system finessed.
His weanlings could be left out into December his biggest challenge would be to finish all Friesians by mid/late September.
TBH as I said I just cannot see the nu.bers working on cows. The system I described above is compatible with working full-time. Not only that if you expand it out to its optimum it probably will be profitable enough to manage a part time labour unit if needed
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Buying 80 yearlings and 80 two year old friesans is an eggs in one basket approach I think.
It can be hard to get the plain cattle booked in especially when they hit the 30 months.
Would it not make sense to sell say 25 of the cows not yet calved to cut numbers and inputs and say buy 20 of these plain yearlings to see how they go.
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The thing about beef is that it's nearly all in or out. OP has a few issues costs and time. Add different systems and you end up with different bunches of cattle. In my system he will be buying 80 cattle and carrying to finish. The buying is sorted by splitting through the Autumn and late winter/ spring.
Its Warren Buffet who says there is no problems with having all your eggs in one basket, you just have to be careful watching it. There is never any problem getting plain cattle booked in U30 months before October/ November. If you have been booking cattle in all summer long your agent will fight to get them in for you. It took me 5+ years to start operating profitabley, it's takes adaptation to continue that trend and finesse to maximise it. If you have under fed Friesian nobody wants them. If you have FS3 Friesian every factory takes them. It's management of which grade O=/- and P that maximise profitability
If you are in Donegal not only have you Foyle meats, you also have access to the NI market. Remember as well I said you have access to suckler runners and weanling in Donegal.
The problem with suckler's is its all cost and no turnover. While you can accept this in a low cost extensive system it's a killer in a high cost system. If you have a land base and let you land work to make the money, it's about output/turnover and keeping cost low.
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