How long until we see €2 a litre and will it push more to EV's faster?

Cape Clear

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120270727#Comment_120270727

There was some tinkering with the Nora levy at one stage but it does look like there is more going on than was taken off.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120271359#Comment_120271359

Probably carbon tax or something?

flexcon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120270727#Comment_120270727

yes I think the Carbon tax went up did it not? But temporarily they took away the Nora Tax that as about 3c per litre.

UsBus

In one sense, its a relief the excise is only going back on gradually.

The only concern I would have is the cover it gives garages to apply sneaky increases, a number of different price hikes here and there and before you know it, they'll all be up at 2euro in a few months again. Very difficult to gauge where prices should be at with the amount of taxes involved now

Cape Clear

Apparently it is now Circle K policy not to tell people their fuel prices over the phone. I doubt there are many people that would ring up a service station requesting prices.

patnor1011

Another myth meets reality like brick wall...

Reuters has published an article revealing that the electric vehicle revolution might not be as environmentally friendly as automakers claim. Furthermore, a scratched or slightly damaged battery pack could lead insurance companies to scrap the entire car.

"We're buying electric cars for sustainability reasons," Matthew Avery, research director at automotive risk intelligence company Thatcham Research, said. 

Avery pointed out, "an EV isn't very sustainable if you've got to throw the battery away after a minor collision." 

A Tesla battery pack costs tens of thousands of dollars and represents a large percentage of the vehicle's price tag. Insurance companies have found that it's uneconomical to replace battery packs if damaged.

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/scratched-ev-battery-your-insurer-may-have-junk-whole-car-2023-03-20/

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120384179#Comment_120384179

Indeed, that article does a good job of addressing the myth that battery repairs are impossible. The insurance industry and some manufacturers are already moving towards more repairable batteries, quotes from said article.

Ford and GM tout their newer, more repairable packs.

Insurers said they know how to fix the problem - make batteries in smaller sections, or modules, that are simpler to fix, and open diagnostics data to third parties to determine battery cell health.

mikeecho

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120279144#Comment_120279144

NORA was 1¢ .. don't know how much they put back on.

On my daily commute, diesel varies between 159⁹ and 167⁹

8¢ difference.. been an 8¢ difference for a long time.

As for hitting €2/l again, that's an issue for next winter.

patnor1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120384316#Comment_120384316

Moving is the key word here. We are not there yet and current technology and unwillingness of producers to share data pretty much ensure that we will not get there for quite some time. They wont do it because of patents and proprietary issues.

Hopium.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120385368#Comment_120385368

The article you posted references Ford and GM doing it now, saying something won't happen for a long time doesn't really work when your source is manufacturers doing it now and a project backed by the UK insurance research institute. Maybe you should go back in time 5 years and complain about the perceived problem

patnor1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120385383#Comment_120385383

You only need to read slower and try to understand what you are reading. So far only 2 companies declared their batteries are more repairable than what competition sell. It is also unclear what exactly does it mean since they are not happy about giving access to data needed. Do you know what is Ford and GM market share? Less than 15% combined for all vehicles. As for EV only, their global market share is pitiful.

There are precious few companies who do auto battery recycling and due to complexity and price involved not many new companies are rushing into this field apart from few repair shops in the USA.

There is none in Ireland or UK and I could actually not find any in the EU. Maybe you do have better information and can provide us with some more details.

Where in the EU is a company which specialize in repair of EV batteries? Which types they can repair and at what cost and what guarantee they offer for refurbished batteries?

Even recycling lithium batteries is only done on experimental basis, everyone is frantically looking for a technology or process which can be scaled up and cost effective.

The problem is not perceived but very real.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120387450#Comment_120387450

The biggest problem with recycling lithium-ion batteries is lack of supply. They are lasting longer than expected for automotive use and it's more profitable to use them as static storage than it is to recycle them. The tech for recycling is there, the volume of material isn't. It's a very similar model to the how scrapyards recover parts for resale before recycling them for materials. Reuse is always preferential to recycling.

patnor1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120387490#Comment_120387490

You would need to revisit your lack of supply argument. As of now, most of lithium batteries end up in landfill since recycling is unprofitable and done only in handful places which are trying to figure out how to scale it up and make it profitable.

Since current recycling is pretty much non existent and EV market share is rising even Germans figured out that planned retirement of ICE engines in 2035 is problematic and they are trying to insert e-fuels in the mix. Problem is that it is not produced at scale needed. A study published on Tuesday by the Potsdam Institute for Climate Research found that all planned e-fuel projects worldwide would only produce enough fuel to cover 10% of Germany's demand for e-fuel use in aviation, shipping and chemicals in the next few years.

Seems that reality refuse to conform to a dreams again.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120387754#Comment_120387754

I'd be surprised if any automotive lithium ion batteries are entering landfills considering a) the value of them and b) the fact that it's illegal within the EU for them to be disposed of in landfill or incinerators. If you have knowledge of it occuring you should contact the Environmental Protection Agency

mikeecho

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120388073#Comment_120388073

You do realize that a lot of waste is shipped overseas to where there is little to no regulation.

I doubt that the Irish EPA can do much about what's going on a 40 foot to darkest Africa, or some indo asian island nation.

wotzgoingon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120389349#Comment_120389349

And another kinda similar thing they are saying we have too many cows producing emissions so the government are saying we will have less cows in our country to abide by the emissions rating but they are going to have more cows in south America to make up for the cows gone from Ireland and ship the meat products to us. I know which meat I'd rather eat, our own but as you said some countries don't care about emission ratings and can do what they like.

patnor1011

This is precisely the answer you can expect from most of the green supporters. But, but, but automotive batteries... All their arguments are theory and some future tech yet they cant name a place which does what they try to portray as a norm.

Currently most of automotive batteries are lithium ion batteries and even though they seems to be huge and demand is growing they do represent less than a third of lithium ion battery market.

I'd be surprised if liamog could come up with name of couple real lithium recycling businesses which do some volume.

There are none so most of batteries from consumer electronics like cell phones and laptops just to name a few do end up in a landfill. Automotive batteries are not exception. Even most of recycling companies do not accept batteries which are damaged, water damaged, corroded, swelled...

mikeecho

Batteries and recycling are a bit like paper straws in macdonalds.

They all get f uckd into the same bin as the food.

None of it gets recycled.

If you want to argue different, come back in 10yrs, when the next big scandal about waste management pops it's head up.

Just like petrol is bad, diesel is good.

By then we'll all be in environmentaly friendly EVs, that will then be told are bad by the greens , and we should switch to tomato powered cars... Or some other such schit

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120389598#Comment_120389598

I'm the one claiming they aren't being recycled in any major volume because they are either still being used for automotive reasons or are being broken down for second life reuse instead, so yes I can't name a major automotive battery recycler.

The usuable life of automotive batteries seems to be about 15-20 years, we've probably a decade to go before there is volume to kick off major recycling.

OfflerCrocGod

Northvolt https://northvolt.com/articles/hydrovolt/

MightyMunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120389540#Comment_120389540

I've never seen South American beef on sale in Ireland, have you?

We export 90% of our beef so don't see why unless we stopped all beef production we'd ever need to import beef.

mikeecho

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120390046#Comment_120390046

On a tangent.. American beef contains growth hormones, banned in the EU, that's why you don't see it here.

Now.. back on track

patnor1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120389977#Comment_120389977

That sounds nice however "second life or reuse" is actually pretty small volume from total end of life or damaged batteries. I do not have exact numbers but I can use real life example.

I personally went through roughly about 3k of laptop batteries to recover PCB's and lithium cells.

Say about 5% of them had oddly square shaped units or smaller 17650 cells which are not really desired by people who plan to reuse batteries. Most of the people look for 18650 cells for powerbanks or repairing tech which do use 18650 cells. These end up in landfill.

Another 10% were damaged cells. Water damage, short-circuited, corroded, swelled leaking cells. These also end up in landfill since very few recycler accept them and even if they take them they are being shipped to a countries which probably recover metal from the casing but eventually end up buried somewhere too.

About 80% are visually good looking so they go to people who use them to some of their projects however, from feedback and also my own tests I can conclude that only about half of them are usable. Even here, that usable half is usually divided to several categories as their capacity is usually all over the place. Rest is either not holding charge or is weak to the point it make no sense to utilize it in anything but perhaps some 18650 battery torch. So most of them end up guess where?

That is example for recovery from consumer electronics which used to be quite a large part of lithium cells market share but this is rapidly changing too. Most of new laptops are smaller, thinner and more and more of them use batteries which are not using 18650 cells but all shapes and sizes of cells which are simply not good for reuse.

My friend own medium sized recycling and recovery operation in UK and he do not take batteries, he actually charge for them since he needs to offload them to another company which ship them overseas. To summarize - lithium batteries recycling is not existent and reuse is very limited.

I am a fan of electric cars and my next car will most likely be electric, I simply do not understand logic of presenting some non existent technologies as a solution to very real problems we are facing. It come to a stage where people adopt idiotic policies which are destined to fail anyway with a hope that we will sort it out somehow with some future inventions. That is exactly what ICE ban after 2035 is about.

OfflerCrocGod

https://mobile.twitter.com/northvolt/status/1630853239024361473

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120391497#Comment_120391497

If anyone is throwing away cells they should be fired. Even damaged cells have a value, batteries are still very expensive.

People dont want 18650 cells any more than any other lithium cells, anything other than lifepo4 is last-gen anyway. But it depends on acquisition. I have a UPS backup built from second life truck 12v lead acid batteries that I got very cheap. They don't cycle often below 90-95% but can hold charge long enough to bridge between grid and off grid supplies. I know of someone who built a solar battery from damaged 18650 cells that he got for free because someone didnt realise they could still be used and threw them out!

vickers209

Anyways back on topic

i Think im in a petrol/diesel prices chat thread?

Anyone know if prices will side any more?

Best i can get locally 154.9 for petrol and 159.9 for diesel been stable at that for 2 weeks now

DownByTheGarden

I thought diesel would be far higher by now.

I really thing public chargers are going go be between €1 and €2 per kwh in the next year.

Im told ionity are about to announce a price increase. Pretty sure the rest will follow that.

patnor1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120391662#Comment_120391662

Nice corporate ad. I have seen it however truth is that lithium battery recycling is still not economically viable and company you linked can do some only because of government grants. As I mentioned it is complicated because of zillion of types, chemistry shapes...

This article explains it in bit more detail and it also mention company you linked two times. (there is so precious little of them they need to be linked several times probably to create illusion of abundance?)

https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/04/lithium-costs-a-lot-of-money-so-why-arent-we-recycling-lithium-batteries/

MightyMunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120391923#Comment_120391923

Tesla dropped their prices in the last few months. Why would they all jack up prices when wholesale electricity prices are going down?

Maybe the government need to remove VAT from public charging and jack up carbon tax on oil to pay for it

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120391497#Comment_120391497

Automotive batteries are lasting at least 8 years in first usage there's a very limited set of batteries available for reuse and material recovery. In 2013 there was only really Nissan, Tesla, VW, BMW making serious numbers of EVs. Funnily enough each of those manufacturers have recovery and recycling programmes. The regulations around automotive material recovery are much stricter than your experience with consumer electronics, there's also a lot more value in a 30kWh pack than there is in recovery of a couple of 18650 or pouch cells from a laptop.

https://www.volkswagenag.com/en/news/stories/2021/01/from-old-to-new-battery-recycling-in-salzgitter.html

https://www.tesla.com/support/sustainability-recycling

https://global.nissanstories.com/en/releases/4r

https://www.bmw.com/en/innovation/life-cycle-of-a-battery-cell.html