6 nations 22

fitz

Last pass looked well forward.

Clegg

Gonna say something controversial.

Penaud is really good.

Odd to throw in from that far back from where the lineout was called but they pull out a score!

realhorrorshow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118591113#Comment_118591113

Best winger in the world good?

fitz

Garbisi has zero nouse.

realhorrorshow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118591141#Comment_118591141

He has incredible vision and if you watch him he is constantly organising the players around him. He's very good at identifying space and changing the direction of attack. His decision making and execution have not been great today though.

I think it's important to bear in mind he is younger than Jack Crowley, playing in a rainy Stade de France behind a bad pack with a 20 year old scrum half inside him. It's a very tough assignment. I think he'll be a very good 10 who Italy can build around, in time. You have to accept the mistakes when you pick such a young player in a pivotal position and trust that the end result will be worth it.

fitz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118591158#Comment_118591158

Yeah, he's got the skills, but he's making terrible decisions. Italian half backs have been poor, even when the pack were doing ok.

Again, that last pass for the final French try looked forward.

corny

I've listened to the Virgin Media commentators moan all weekend about the Scottish penalty try and it's bugging me something fierce. I don't think they know the laws. Maybe i don't!

My understanding of the law is that the referee is to remove the person culpable in the act completely from the equation. ie LCD doesn't exist for the play and the probability of Graham scoring or not rests solely on his ability to catch the ball. The cover is never getting there. Is this correct?

irelandrover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118591877#Comment_118591877

That's what I thought as well.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118591877#Comment_118591877

You're correct. Once LCD commits the penalty offense, the decision to award the penalty try needs to completely remove him from the equation. If LCD wasn't there, would the try have been scored, and it's very probable that it would have been, as it was a simple catch and run in as the other English covering defenders were too far away.

corny

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118592117#Comment_118592117

Thanks. I think Shane Horgan was the only person to grasp this on the coverage i've seen. Talking heads indeed.

Interested Observer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118592318#Comment_118592318

It's a very rare event so this is quite old but you hear Walsh in this video explicitly saying they remove the offending player from the equation.

https://youtu.be/2wtYc-PPCCE

Ireland gave away a similar penalty try against New Zealand back in 2010 or so in Croke Park, Tommy Bowe slapped it into touch under pressure in our try area and gave away a penalty try and got a yellow for his troubles.

Edit, we were in Lansdowne by 2010 so must have been earlier, 2008 maybe.

Pussyhands

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118592361#Comment_118592361

November 2008. I remember that incident well!

Breezer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118592361#Comment_118592361

Mad to see that tackle not even meriting a yellow back then! Red all day these days, surely?

Actually, is a penalty try not an automatic yellow now, or is that just more often than not?

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118592964#Comment_118592964

Automatic yellow card

CONSI

Yeah got very frustrating listen to so called experts saying it shouldnt have been a penalty try, would love if they had a ref in studio, like they do on BT Sport, who could talk them through these type of decisions. Basically Matt Williams and Rob Kearney were saying that all the refs got it wrong and don't understand the laws, I would like to think that its the other way around.

lawrencesummers

The way jones handled LCD is baffling his YC looked like a decision made due to high fatigue levels.

He got his YC on 66 minutes when he realistically should have been subbed already.

its not as if jamie george is a rookie!!! Surely jamie George should be on at 50 minutes, or 60 minutes at the latest!!!

johnnyskeleton

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118591877#Comment_118591877

What I find puzzling is that Matt Williams said “I’m not so certain that you could say a try was definitely going to be scored from that. Did the foul play definitely stop a try from being scored? I just don’t think that it fulfils those requirements.”

All that Law 8.3 says for penalties tries says "A penalty try is awarded between the goal posts if foul play by the opposing team prevents a probable try from being scored, or scored in a more advantageous position. A player guilty of this must be cautioned and temporarily suspended or sent off. No conversion is attempted."

https://www.laws.worldrugby.org/?law=8&language=EN

So it only has to be a probable try, not a definite try.

I don't know which of the two views is right between whether you treat it like Cowan-Dickie didn't exist, or whether you treat it like he did exist but didn't commit a foul, but I think both views stem from the fact that the standard required for a penalty try has interpreted "probable" to mean "almost certain" but it should really only be where there is a real try scoring opportunity but for the foul. In any event, I suppose you can't really speculate that if he didn't commit a deliberate foul that he would have caught the ball, or that he would have waited and then successfully tackled Graham when he landed.

If anything, I think there should be more penalty tries given out and it should be easier to get one. Otherwise, you incentivise foul play like this. I'm sure Cowan-Dickie made the calculation that he would get a yellow but it would prevent a try and that England could comfortably defend against the Scottish lineout from the penalty. So not to award the penalty try would have been far worse for the game than awarding it.

eagle eye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118594676#Comment_118594676

If the player who fouled the ball didn't foul then the ball goes into the hands of the attacker who has a clear run to score a try as the player is in the air and not in a position to defend against it.

tmc1963

As clear a PT as you'll ever see if you make LCD invisible....which is precisely what the officials have to do in that situation

pickarooney

It's actually amazing that a player like Rob Kearney doesn't understand the laws

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118596825#Comment_118596825

They don’t have to make him invisible though. They only have to remove the action of foul play. If he put his hands up and missed the ball. There would have been no foul. They need to calculate if in probability, the ball went past him would Graham have caught and held the ball. That was the call they made. Nigel Owens explained it quite clearly.

jimdemp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118598939#Comment_118598939

Robot Kearney and mark zuckerberg would be a great duo

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118598939#Comment_118598939

Is it? Most players dont understand plenty of the laws of the game.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118601720#Comment_118601720

If things have changed I'm happy to throw my hands up, but for the last several years I've always heard you remove the player committing the foul play completely from consideration.

i.e. you give a penalty try for a high tackle on the line, you don't say "well he could have hit him lower".

dastardly00

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118592361#Comment_118592361

Here is the penalty try from the infringement by Tommy Bowe. Go to around 54'30" in the video. Very obvious to me that it's a penalty try. I'm not sure why the commentator talks about the significance of it happening in the in-goal area or not

https://youtu.be/dAJIjZ_maJo

pickarooney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118601782#Comment_118601782

I just don't understand how rugby can be your day job and you don't know the ins and outs of the game.

Johnny May not knowing how to position himself in a scrum was one of the most baffling things I've ever seen.

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118601899#Comment_118601899

Well as Nigel Owens described it on BBC, you assess the probability that the try would have been scored without the action. He didn’t mention removing the player at all.

molloyjh

Don’t you have to remove the player in order to remove the action? Otherwise you’re just theorising what LCD May or may not have done if not batting the ball into touch. Maybe he’s have tried to catch it. Maybe he’d have batted it backward or infield. Maybe he’d have stayed down and looked to make the tackle on Graham. But you can’t make a decision on a penalty try based on entirely hypothetical scenarios. Take out the foul play means taking out the player, no?

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118602214#Comment_118602214

He said it’s based on probability of scoring the try without a foul being committed. That on balance he felt the decision was right. If LCD wasn’t there, then there would be no question of probability, it was a certain try as there were no other defenders there.