How can we integrate Unionism into a possible United Ireland?

downcow

Guys you need to keep this in perspective. I am not saying war is good, Uk is squeaky clean, etc, etc. And I am not saying everyone in Uk is pro-war etc etc.

I am dealing with the op question and simply giving my point of view that most unionists I know would be very uncomfortable living in a country that was neutral and not in nato.

I don’t know what you want to divert to British history.

carfinder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118778780#Comment_118778780

As neutrality is a constitutional issue it would be up to unionists to persuade the majority to make such an accommodating change. I think they would have to try a little harder than Downcow to win hearts and minds

Speedline

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118778780#Comment_118778780

You have already been told that there's nothing stopping you or anyone else signing up for the british army in the event of a UI. You can go around the world shooting and bombing people into oblivion. You just won't be doing it in Irelands name.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118778831#Comment_118778831

Guys I am not disagreeing with you or in a competition as to whose history is most honourable.

I am simply saying that the unionist identity is steeped in working with allies to defeat oppressors and having to live in a country that would be pledging to remain neutral and not play their part in nato would be difficult.

clearly there is zero likelihood of a Ui in the foreseeable future, but it wasn’t me asked the hypothetical question.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118779168#Comment_118779168

How certain are you that Ireland will not join nato? What would you guess would be the result % in roi if a vote was held now?

Speedline

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118780366#Comment_118780366

We are already a part member of NATO. We are not a full member due to our desire to be neutral. I don't get why this is a big deal for you. You consider yourself british. You are free to fight for Britain even if you live in Ireland.

What's the issue?

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118780484#Comment_118780484

There is no issue at all. I simply gave several answers the op question. It seems this one has struck a raw nerve for some nationalist posters. They have went for whataboutery and trying to turn it into a competition.

if you want to discuss How Uk could make our nation more welcoming for ROI to rejoin, then open a thread on that. You could then propose that UK become neutral and I could tell you whether I thought that would be a step to far for reunification of the UK.

I am guessing you think Ireland dropping its neutrality is a step to far to unify the island?

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118780652#Comment_118780652

But alas Downcow, even if our neutrality was on the table, you and your ilk wouldn't vote for Unification anyway. You're suggesting compromises essentially only really wanted by a small niche of people who won't integrate into a united Ireland even if every compromise possible was given to them.

It is entirely disingenuous for you to suggest anything that would help Unionism integrate in a united Ireland when you're on the record stating that you will never integrate into a united Ireland, and indeed couldn't guarantee that you'd remain peaceful should it come to pass (with whatever veneer you want to put on your claim about not remaining peaceful).

Given the protests in Belfast around the time of the war in Iraq, I'm not sure your thirst for war is reflective of as much of Unionism as you think.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118780728#Comment_118780728

Wrong on all accounts.

firstly your accusation that my desire that countries should unite to try to stop the war in Ukraine, demonstrates a thirst for war by me is simply rediculous and only shows that you have no reasonable arguments to offer.

your claim that I would not accept a UI is again nonsense. What you mean is that I would not accept it on your or militant republicans terms. I would of course welcome a UI on certain conditions and therefore the OPs question is reasonable and I have every right to respond.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118781865#Comment_118781865

Some Unionists and blood sacrifice. Look what you got for your sacrifices in World Wars for King/Queen and country?

Sidelined and begging to be valued by the very monarchy and union you went to defend.

I have actually had this conversation with groups of unionists around the Observe the Sons Of Ulster Marching Towards the Somme play and to a man and woman they wouldn't endorse making the same sacrifice again. While they have no issue honouring those sarcrificed they would not be answering the call in the same numbers again.

Times have changed downcow, and it clearly isn't a cultural change as you get different opinions here too.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118770144#Comment_118770144

You could help others by taking them in as refugees.

You could help others by holding Priti Patel to account for her shambolic response

You could help others by returning all the stolen artefacts 'borrowed' from other countries over the millenia

You could help others by showing a basic level of remorse for plundering and enslaving half the planet, instead of telling them they should be embarrassed for.......*checks notes*.........refusing to attack other nations

The actions of the UK as a whole cannot be viewed through any prism other than that of the colonial power, one which she has gladly carved into the histories of many, many others. Given the fact that she has continued to oppress other nations and refuses to give up what is, rightfully, not hers, those actions are hypocritical at best. Admonishing others for not doing the same is scumbag behaviour. If History really is for 'learning from', then Britian is failing that class.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118773657#Comment_118773657

Lol, are you taking the piss?

Downcow: "Ha, you guys should be embarrassed, we're much better than you because of [reason 1]"

Everyone else: "well actually, you're much worse than us because of [reasons 2 through 10]"

Downcow: "whoa, guys, it's not a competition....relax"

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118781865#Comment_118781865

No Downcow, your claim that a huge amount of your culture and identity is tied up in the military is what demonstrates your thirst for war. I've already addressed this, and you continue to ignore the fact that only acknowledging the handful of wars that the UK has been on the right side of, while putting your fingers in your ears about the amount of discord and instability the UK's military obsession has caused globally. This is your thirst for war, not your condemnation of the war in Ukraine while your government continues to make it nigh on impossible for refugees to come to Britain.

Your constant ignoring of the fact that Ireland has indeed condemned the war in Ukraine and continues to offer humanitarian aid rather than weapons still implies you don't really know what military neutrality is and you seem to mistake it for absolute neutrality.

You have been repeatedly quoted having said that you couldn't guarantee you'd remain peaceful in a United Ireland. Even if we take your.....later edited interpretation of that to mean peaceful protest and civil disobedience (though why anyone would describe those as non-peaceful still baffles me), at no point have you ever added the caveat of, 'if xyz compromises and protections were not offered'

Unless you're referring to an Ireland united as part of the UK, I don't believe for a second that there is any compromise great enough.

My terms and militant Republican terms are entirely different, I've repeatedly stated an openness to compromise on flags, anthems, a strong support for protection of Ulster Scots culture, an openness to rejoining the commonwealth. I've even discussed devolved federal government with Blanch on here as an option.

You're an absolute spoofer and no matter what compromise was offered, it would never be enough because ultimately your objection is massively tied to your hatred of anything Irish at all.

I suspect that deep down, what you fear most of all is an equitable and fair United Ireland, because it really would shine a light on the cesspit that NI was when your lot were in control, and totally remove your, 'if the shoe was on the other foot' method of assuaging your guilt. Accuse others of that which you are guilty writ large.

FraserburghFreddie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118777430#Comment_118777430

Many countries have imperial pasts. There seems to be a plethora of bitter,disgruntled,disaffected republicans on this and other forums(as the myriad of anti UK threads illustrates)who thankfully are a minority amongst the average person in the street in Ireland.

ittakestwo

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/britain-offered-unity-if-ireland-entered-war-1.281078

just on the topic of unity and neutrality.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118783168#Comment_118783168

Your whataboutery doesn't really address my post; it is a factual statement that the UK is more connected to global conflicts than Ireland, as it is either directly or indirectly responsible for a great deal of them across history. My post wasn't plucked out of nowhere; it was in response to another poster chest-beating about how, 'involved' the UK was in global context, I just provided context for why it is so involved.

Many countries have imperial pasts indeed.....most don't take the bizarre pride in it, thinking of themselves as bringing culture to, 'the savages' that a small but noisy number of British people do.

Thankfully they're a minority amongst the average person in the streets of the UK.

A history of colonisation shouldn't be a mark of pride for any country in my eyes, but I won't be drawn by you inferring that I attribute that view to the entire population of the UK.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118783168#Comment_118783168

Anyone who doesn't immediately bow down and praise the UK as this magnanimous, benevolent, altruistic, peace-keeper on the side of justice and fighting for the little guy is a "bitter,disgruntled,disaffected republican", then, are they?

Pathetic.

I suppose it's easier to tell people to get over the recent past when you've made a career out of whitewashing all your dirty misdeeds over the centuries. You can keep trying to portray the UK as some sort of referee in international relations all you want. History shows that, in the vast majority of the conflicts in which the UK have been actively involved, they have been the aggressors more often than not.

No amount of trying to tarnish others as Celtic-jersey-wearing 'Ra heads will change that.

You say "many countries have Imperial pasts", but Ireland does not. So GTFO of here with your "we're all the same" shtick, cos whatever your're selling, we ain't buying.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118783252#Comment_118783252

When will Unionism accept that Westminster will have zero issue cutting them loose when there is something in it for them.

FraserburghFreddie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118783271#Comment_118783271

So "GTFO of here."??? On a thread named 'what can we do to integrate Unionism?'

Thanks for proving my point about bitter disgruntled republicans.

Yes, "GTFO of here" meaning "stop peddling your bullsh1t". It's a turn of phrase, an idiom, it doesn't mean "get out of Boards/Ireland", it's supposed to be interpreted, as opposed to taken literally. I thought you'd be well versed in such matters, given the North's penchant for phrases and slogans. "Ulster says no", "KAT" and "Knee deep in Fenian Blood" being a couple of choice selections. Nice of you to jump on those three words while ignoring the rest of my post, including the context in which those words were provided. No small surprise, then, that you wildly misinterpreted it, I suppose.

To answer the question posed by the thread title: "how can we integrate Unionism into a United Ireland"?.......The answer is, "We can't, and we shouldn't really be expected to", IMO. Unionism and it's teachings are fundamentally in opposition to a united Ireland and, in it's current guise, at least, is completely anathema to the concept of integrated living on this Island. They cannot / will not accept equality because they have been the oppressor for so long, so any move towards the middle just looks like you're chipping away at their perks (which it is, in some respects). This should be at the entry-level in terms of concessions and the fact that it is a controversial topic just proves how unyielding Unionism is.

They've pretty much lost sight of what they wanted and are now defined by their opposition to, and hatred of, those who sing fewer hymns then they do on a Sunday. Have a look at anything they publish or the words printed on their leaflets and websites. It's all about not giving in to SF, the outrage that investigations into official govt interference during the troubles are "one-way" and commemorating the very armed forces who once patrolled the very streets, injuring, maiming and killing innocent civilians for decades. Literally, defined by it. To give any of that up now would be seen as too weak, so they are all demands and no attempts at compromise.

A couple of quotes from the DUP website:

The current approach to investigating ‘Troubles’ cases is unacceptable for innocent victims..... It is only natural that the public are outraged to see former soldiers who stood against the brutal terrorism of the seventies and eighties instigated by the IRA, now being hounded while those who hid behind balaclavas to avoid justice are given ‘hero’ status and places on Policing Boards.

Government needs to ensure terrorists are pursued, with full police powers to conduct effective and comprehensive investigations and arrest suspects.

It is unacceptable that Northern Ireland has never hosted the main national event for Armed Forces Day in the UK. The DUP wish to see Northern Ireland host the main national event at some point in the life of this Parliament and regularly thereafter.

The DUP Supports...Addressing the harm caused by commemorations of, and parades associated with, paramilitary activity serving to legitimise ongoing terrorist activity.

Openly hostile, thinly-veiled potshots at SF and attempting to portray anyone who opposes Unionism as a terrorist and/or terrorist sympathiser. Not only that, but the rank hypocrisy of the last two sentences is astonishing. We should not be bending over backwards to accommodate people with such one-sided myopia.

maccored

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118783252#Comment_118783252

thinking of the backasswardness of the current protocol bolloxing about, its good devalera didnt fall for it

downcow

This is an interesting read from someone reared as a middle class grammar boy who has spent much of his time in homes in the south and has an Irish passport. He is about as Irish a person as you could find coming out of the unionist community. Someone who says he could contemplate a UI. Surely you guys can understand when even he is saying your approach is not good?

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/andrew-trimble-people-in-the-republic-are-not-ready-for-a-united-ireland-1.4822360?fbclid=IwAR1B-r-zhc9M8HGgX_vmj8e8uICbg5ZKfI7CcmFRlZVQ9hURE8H4LpfQAiY

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118791310#Comment_118791310

An entirely reasonable perspective from Andrew Trimble, though I think a case of over-representing a very vocal minority with regards to what the average person in favour of Unification thinks (as opposed to the loud type shouting Up the Ra in the pub), reinforced by some poorly worded survey questions.

I think that people are more open to compromise than that poll reflected in reality, albeit that is partially from my own anecdotal experience and undoubtedly impacted by my own social circle. That is combined with considering how I'd answer myself if asked, to "what extent I would agree or disagree with a new national anthem."

To that phrasing, at the time of that poll would've answered that I disagree with a new national anthem, but not wanting one doesn't mean I wouldn't be willing to compromise on it. It's an opinion I've found myself drifting further away from willingness to compromise towards actively supporting while reflecting on some perspectives shared on this thread by folk I largely don't align with (from this side of the border), and one that I'll reflect on further given the perspective shared by Andrew Trimble, who by all accounts is from a cohort that will be a significant floating vote when it comes to it.

There would still be a number of things I would disagree with, some things I have my own personal perspectives on and other things which would be line in the sand issues to me (I'm telling you lads, I'll vote to rejoin the UK before I accept Ireland's Call), but having my own opinions and preferences shouldn't be mistaken for unwillingness to compromise.

I wonder what Andrew Trimble would think of the efforts your lot have been making to convince those from a Nationalist background of the merits of remaining part of the United Kingdom though....

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118791310#Comment_118791310

So he is basically saying, 'we won't talk unless we get our way'.

While I couldn't give a hoot what the anthem is maybe Andrew should accept that democracy will rule.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118791444#Comment_118791444

The thing about democracy, Francie.....Andrew Trimble has a vote on Unification and he's part of the cohort we can and will have to convince.

We can certainly say, 'tough sh*t' when people like him request (what I'd consider relatively simple and not particularly unreasonable) compromises to make them feel welcome.....but if we do, well don't be surprised if they turn around and vote no.

"This is what you could do to get people like me more on board with Unification" is about as far from, "we won't talk unless we get our way" as I can imagine.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118791487#Comment_118791487

He is couching it in the wrong way Fionn. 'We won't talk about unless we get our way' is basically what he is saying.

Any anthemn should be chosen by a majority, make you case for your choice but be a democrat and accept the will of the majority.

I know I am quite happy to do that.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118791532#Comment_118791532

But he is simply saying that if a United Ireland doesn't seem welcoming to him, he won't vote for it. Democracy works both ways and there's nothing undemocratic about saying you won't vote for something that doesn't satisfy you.

His position is no more undemocratic than it would be for me to say I won't vote for Fine Gael unless they put forward solid proposals about what they're going to do about housing. Maybe enough people are happy with the housing situation or don't feel that it is important enough for them to keep Fine Gael out of government, and I would have to accept that as a democrat.....but I'm not being unreasonable or undemocratic by providing a set of conditions that would need to be met for ME to vote for them, or by suggesting that if Fine Gael want to attract voters like me, they need to do this.

*you can substitute FG for any party at all in the example before any suggestions that the specific party is relevant to my point.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118791772#Comment_118791772

Not the same IMO.

He is not willing to have a conversation...unless.

That's different to arguing or debating your case...i.e. having a conversation>

It's a trait in Unionism to be perfectly frank. A mild form of Never Never Never.

He should just tell people what he would like as an anthem. Take it from there...convince people.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118791808#Comment_118791808

If he's happy with the status quo, he doesn't have to do any convincing....just like I don't have provide an alternative budget to justify not voting for a political party.

If they want me to vote for them, well it's their job to convince me, if they don't they won't get my vote. If we want people like Andrew Trimble to vote for Unification, we have to convince them. He has been courteous enough to tell us what would convince him, while you're free to ask what he would suggest......well he's also free to just vote no if he doesn't like how you respond. Maybe it's the gesture and attitude of compromise that is more important to him than any specific alternative anthem? I don't see any democratic deficit, ultimately it will be for the majority to decide if that compromise is worth it to convince voters like him.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118791825#Comment_118791825

I have to support francie on this. His approach is wonderful and as you say will reduce the number of floating voters who may vote UI.

good man francie.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118791825#Comment_118791825

People like David are 'happy with the status quo' Fionn...that's exactly it. They won't change their vote until that changes.

To me he is just kicking to touch (see what I did there) to avoid being seen as a Unionist or (small u) unionist, which is a bit of a shame TBH for Unionism. If it is not the anthem that provides a convenient block, it will be something else.

If you look at it, the fear of saying I am a unionist is a sign that the unhappiness is creeping in. Same happened with the Orange Order, people became ashamed to be associated with it's bigotry and belligerence. Same is happening with Unionism IMO, belligerent Unionism is driving moderate Unionism away and they don't call themselves that anymore.(see his comments on DUP and Loyalism) Trimble is a prime example of that, at pains to say that while he was brought up Unionist, voted UUP etc but doesn't see himself as unionist. Yet.....

I'll be taking part in the debates on these issues, and I will accept the will of the majority, I expect the same of other democrats, no negotiating terms, no appeasement for the sake of it... etc. Simple as that.