Leaving Cert 2022 and whingeing students

Pussyhands

The unions want traditional leaving cert with exams in the summer along with the usual assessments of projects and orals/aurals.

Some students are whingeing they want the choice of hybrid and plucked from the sky teacher assessed grades. They want their cake and to eat it too.

So I saw on RTE some staged a protest outside the Dail. Some had placards. "my education, my choice", "mental health not the LC rat race".

Lads, if ye can't face a few exams in the summer then you'll not last in the real world with your mental health. And bog off with your "my education, my choice", the abortion ref was years ago.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058228960/leaving-cert-2022-and-whingeing-students

Perhaps you should look into this a little more.

The grades would not be “plucked from the sky”, they are based on class performance and the grade a teacher thinks the student would gain in the LC if he/she sat it under normal conditions.

This years LCs have suffered disruption, extended periods away from the class rooms during which online teaching was patchy in some cases, teacher absences, stress, and of course many claim their course teaching is nowhere near finished at a time when the focus should be on revision. Add into that competition from students with inflated grades from previous years applying for courses this year and you have a disadvantaged year of students.

I would argue that the snowflake generation is more likely to be the 20-40 yr olds now complaining about their lot, not the students who have lived through it during their formative years.

Noo

Some of these kids never sat their junior cert either, so going off to college having never sat a formal exam. That should be interesting for them.

Pussyhands

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118504225#Comment_118504225

The reason students want teacher grades is because teachers give higher grades, that is a fact.

All the excuses you've given, wouldn't that disrupt their grades anyways?

So you give inflated grades to students this year....and then next year they're competing with this years higher inflated grades. So they'll just have to get on with it. Life isn't fair, might be the most important thing they learn during LC.

So firstly, they've faced huge disruption in their education throughout the cycle. Secondly everyone's mental health has suffered in the last two years, on top of that they're facing exams that are incredibly high stress and have traditionally affected people's mental health. So they're facing a situation that neither you or I have faced.

Also fyi, I found the leaving cert incredibly high stress and I was suffering from mental health issues at time on top of it. I did pretty terribly in it. College exams and my masters I had no issue with. On top of that, I'm in a pretty challenging and well paid area at this stage in my life. I don't find that half as stressful as the leaving cert and my leaving cert result offered pretty much no indication of my capabilities.

So I have absolute sympathy for them and the fact the government didn't have the foresight to prepare for these scenarios is a pretty poor reflection on them.

steddyeddy

The leaving cert has no bearing on how suitable someone is at university. It's a memory test. The university lectures have been fighting with the unions for years to change the LC curriculum as it's so dumbed down that it's simply wrong. Biology at leaving cert level for instance is ridiculous. The universities should step in and offer to carry out interviews before students are admitted to a particular course. I have no problem with the students doing something different in this particularly challenging time.

Hoop66

OP going for the Littlejohn audience, there. Should have thrown a "woke" and a "snowflake" in really. Poor show.

Pussyhands

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118504285#Comment_118504285

If everyones mental health has suffered then it's an even playing field.

Get on with it. Life isn't fair. Sooner they learn that, the better.

It's a two year course, think about how much has been going on for the last two years.

I cannot understand why someone wouldn't have sympathy for them?

Nermal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118504344#Comment_118504344

So? What's wrong with a memory test?

Examination is the only fair method of allocating college places.

Incorporating interviews and continuous assessment will bring us down the road of the US & UK, where family connections, wealth and biased interviewers determine one's life path.

As a LC student myself I’m terrified of predicted grades and hybrid exams. The points inflation is awful enough this year already, I’m aiming for high points courses and it’s making me feel demotivated enough as it is.

if it actually happens again I don’t know how I’ll cope..

steddyeddy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118504358#Comment_118504358

So in your own words you want to decide who should get into which course in university by putting students through a test that isn't fair....

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118504432#Comment_118504432

At least everyone is on an equal playing field on the “unfair memory test”.

In our system it’s ultimately up to you to do the work to study, not the school you go to, who you know, etc. Predicted grades allow all those biases to appear unlike the traditional LC.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118504285#Comment_118504285

The only thing that’s messing up my mental health is having to compete with highly inflated points courses for a place.

Hybrid exams will just make that worse.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118504432#Comment_118504432

Its equally unfair to all. If it wasnt for the leaving cert i wouldnt be a professional today. If i was relying on my teachers' grades i would have been a c grade LC, not A grade. The biggest advantage to the LC is to the examiner you are just a number, indistinguisable from the herd, so your actual exam performance does the talking.

Getting into whatever course shouldn't be decided by points anyway, a fair better system should be introduced, like the British one maybe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118504358#Comment_118504358

Except some people get hit worse mental health wise and not everyone is in the same circumstance. And I'll repeat, the leaving cert offers absolutely no reflection upon an individual. And this year's students are in a pretty unique scenario where they're facing a state examination returning to normal even though they didn't receive a normal education. Some will undoubtedly get on great but others will suffer cause the situation made it far more difficult for them.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118504466#Comment_118504466

And you don't represent all students. Not all students have a home life where school from home is particularly optimal. The fact the government haven't been preparing for this scenario is a reflection of how poorly the department has been handled throughout the pandemic.

airy fairy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118504265#Comment_118504265

Most students who sat the exam in June were awarded a higher grade than when they were graded by their teacher.

Something needs dramatic overhauling in the points system now, be it this year or next. Kids have no idea what course to do because points were inflated. Teachers are hoping points will be reduced to where they were, but no one knows. If a kid was aiming for a course of 400 points, this year it was inflated to 480 points. They have no idea if this will fall back down to what they can realistically get, or if the course is still out of reach.

Many students are coming to school Covid positive in order to keep up with the load. Many students have had a week or more of free classes due to teacher absence. Many students are close contacts or positive and have to stay out and miss school with no online support. In 5th year, they missed January, February, March and returned mid April, holidays in May. That's a huge chunk of lost time to learn the curriculum.

I don't think the hybrid system will be implemented. But I do think something needs to be altered as regards to points and the allowance to sit the exam at a later time if a student is Covid positive during the usual exam time.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118504492#Comment_118504492

The British system is actually terrible if you don’t come from a high socioeconomic background or can’t afford private school.

They have better colleges but we definitely have better secondary level education for the simple fact that it’s fair and everyone has an opportunity to do well.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118504500#Comment_118504500

This issue isn’t really relevant to predicted grades discussion as this would’ve been a case in any other LC exam year.

The time we were off school the second time, schools were very prepared. My school is pretty bad and lower socioeconomically, but they gave anyone without laptops one for the duration. I live in a council house, I did my classes in my tiny box bedroom with a tiny table and I managed to get it to work.

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058228960/leaving-cert-2022-and-whingeing-students

I got into terrible trouble for daring to question the little darlings and the Trauma they've endured throughout the pandemic. I saw an utterly pathetic Vox Pop on virgin media news last week, Two students submitted poorly edited and scripted tales of Woe via mobile phond, one looked like she was reading from an obituary such was her angst at the big bad world she lives in, she stopped towards the end, took a deep breath and exclaimed "She was Gutted", it was deserving of an Oscar.

I'm sick to the teeth of these "Normally" , self entitled Teens" being given a platform to dictate education policy, I'm equally tired of this Narrative about the mental anguish and Trauma they keep bleating on about, every person in some shape or fashion has been impacted by this Pandemic, if the population as a whole behaved as these teens do, the country would grind to a halt. It would seem a Cohort of do gooders are actively encouraging our next generation to become a bunch of whimpering, moaning and self entitled generation. Grow up I say 🙄

It's infuriating and thankfully Teacher & their representatives having none of this latest whimpering fest.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118504511#Comment_118504511

How do you figure that?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118504536#Comment_118504536

So you're concluding that every student has a home situation that works for school from home? I'm genuinely happy for you but I guarantee that others suffered as a result of it.

And mental health is incredibly relevant when we're in a scenario that's far from the norm. Imho, the impact of the LC on mental health has always been an issue but this time round is far more unusual.

For the record, I'm not sure how grading should have worked this year. But returning to business as usual is a lack of preparation on the government's part.

road_high

This is utter nonsense alright- any excuse to try get out of anything remotely difficult with this lot. We had teacher strikes, foot & mouth my year- there was absolutely no question that the traditional exams would not go ahead.

These pampered woke pussies want everything handed on a plate to them now. They literally can’t cope with anything. They’ve been in school full time since September- no lockdowns- so wtf exactly is the problem? Zero resilience

Pussyhands

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118504500#Comment_118504500

Not everyone is in the same circumstance anyways! When I did my LC, the grandfather of one of my classmates died and the day after they were sitting an irish exam.

How are these wimps going to survive in college when they're told to have an assignment done by 3pm Friday, will they come along..."Mr Lecturer...my mental health was bad this week, can I have another week?"

How are they going to survive if they go to a college where exams are held after christmas. Will they be crying about their mental health over the Christmas?

I blame the parents for these wimps

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118504566#Comment_118504566

I know people who live there.

They place a heavy emphasis on predicted grades based on unstandardised tests, and interviews.. there you aren’t just a number. It’s not a secret that people with important connections manage to find a way in even if not the most deserving of a place.

There is a huge gap in education there between the rich and the poor. To my knowledge it’s pretty much the same in the US.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118504559#Comment_118504559

Unfortunately the adults are not providing adequate examples of how to behave with stoicism to hardship. When the kids see their parents and teachers(especially their teachers) crying and whinging instead of getting on with it, of course they are gonna behave in the same histrionic way

Nermal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118504473#Comment_118504473

The points system is one of the few things Ireland should be proud of. An institutional defence against nepotism and privilege and a driver of social mobility. Sad to see it being gradually dismantled.

Furze99

Every June for many years past and pre Covid, we have heard the annual mantra that the Leaving Cert system must be overhauled. Too much based on written tests on one day, not enough continuous assessment.

Covid has come along and forced a change for last year, so people see this is in fact possible. Come this year, we now see who are the biggest opponents of change - the second level teachers unions.

Students want change, parents want change, colleges want change - everyone wants change bar the teacher unions.

This is a power struggle to see just who has a stranglehold over the exam system at second level. Rather than concentrating on student protests, we might do better to examine the oppositional motives of teachers and their unions........................... just exactly why are they so set against change?

steddyeddy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118504414#Comment_118504414

I studied science in my undergrad. It's not a memory test and because of that it had a high drop out rate. Students who were used to cram in order to "learn" had to actually understand complex issues before they could learn.

Actually privilege already pays a part in our system as fee paying schools dominate (https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/munster/arid-40779831.html). In other words their connections are paying their way in. Oxford and Cambridge have already countered this by carrying out interviews to test why a person wants to do a subject. I have done it myself in England and you can easily weed out the ones who get coached.

MacDanger

IMO, the changes that have been made (extra options, etc.) are sufficient to compensate the students for the disruption they've experienced. At some point, the system has to go back to normal and it might as well be now.

The current system has it's drawbacks but as already stated, the main advantage is that it's a level playing field for everyone and the examiner doesn't know who you are or what school you went to. It probably should be changed to something involving some continuous assessment but that's something that will require planning, union discussions, etc. so not achievable in the shirt term.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118504587#Comment_118504587

I mean, if their home working environment wasn’t ideal it wouldn’t have been anyways on a normal year, as I said. So it’s not relevant to the discussion of predicted grades, because there’s no relation.

On mental health… I can’t speak for others but it’s the points inflation that’s making me more anxious. So installing a hybrid exam is counterintuitive for me. While others might prefer it.. but neither can they speak for me and for many others in my shoes.

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118504606#Comment_118504606

Very true, how we got here is just extraordinary, I'm not minimising the challenges students face but whilst no defender of Norma Foley (utterly dreadful), every effort has been made to support students.

Whatever about the fist year of the Pandemic and that was tough, allowing this pandering to continue is just beyond absurd and alot of it being pushed by certain media outlets 🙄

patnor1011

If you were consistently participating there is no need to be afraid that you may have a bad day when you do not perform good enough in one exam hence ruining your chances of a better future.

Most of these kids who protest are those who studied and participated.

Some other who perhaps decided to have more fun just hope they get "easy" questions and will have some luck on LC exams.

road_high

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118504600#Comment_118504600

That’s exactly what they’ll try-the mental health card has been played to death now- life isn’t a bed of Roses and sometimes you must sacrifice and work hard to get to an end goal. These lot of whimps want to skip that hard bit of course and have it handed on a gold plated plate. Because they’re worth it.

The notion of “predicted” (ie made up) grades is the greatest load of rubbish I’ve ever came across. Thankfully teachers know and acknowledge this too and are resisting the urge to pander to these princesses. The LC had been dumbed down so much now it may as well be abolished if any more is chipped away

Pussyhands

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118504618#Comment_118504618

Our education speaks for itself in terms of highly skilled workers being employed by multi nationals.

Like it or not, our education system is very good.

People say the LC is a memory test. Then why is it always the smartest who end up with the highest points?

Nermal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118504621#Comment_118504621

LOL, 'why' a person wants to do a subject. What is this, Britain's Got Talent?

steddyeddy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118504691#Comment_118504691

You don't think it's important that a person has a passion for a subject? No, science interviews in Cambridge really aren't Britain's got talent.

steddyeddy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118504649#Comment_118504649

Actually it's not. Could you provide a correlation between LC points and IQ? We do know that fee paying schools dominate but we also know that fee paying students actually do worse when they get to university.

steddyeddy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118504630#Comment_118504630

I'm sorry to hear about your situation and that you may have had troubles at home. I did too during my leaving cert so I totally empathise.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118504649#Comment_118504649

I know multiple people who got 500 points or thereabouts who really didn't go anywhere career wise. Meanwhile I also know plenty of people in my industry(software) that would have gotten 300-400 points in the leaving cert. They're most definitely not dumb and plenty of them were making in the low six figures in their thirties.

On top of that, you'll find it's not unusual for people who got on poorly in the leaving cert to actually perform very well in college and beyond. So I can guarantee you that plenty of those people in roles in MNCs did not do amazing leaving certs.

Pussyhands

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118504732#Comment_118504732

So they did bad in the LC and were making 6 figures in their 30's.

Sounds like the education system is pretty good to me.

steddyeddy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118504511#Comment_118504511

Having worked there I can confirm that. Dominated by people from fee paying from schools whereby you pay to get your child into university. I was actively trying to combat that. I actually asked one Harrow alumni how he got into science as he was totally unsuited to the post.

steddyeddy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118504617#Comment_118504617

You're ignoring the fact that fee pay students dominate but often do worse at university. In other words the wrong students are paying their way in through the bank of mammy and daddy.

@Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118504755#Comment_118504755

According to you the smartest are getting the highest results. According to the points system atm the people I referenced would not get into the courses they did a decade or so ago... On top of that computer science degrees tend to have high dropout rates so performance in secondary school doesn't pertain to how they perform in college.

I know similar applies in other degrees. Somebody like @Bannasidhe can likely comment cause I know things like history in leaving cert versus college is substantially different to the point where you have to unlearn how it was taught.

Pussyhands

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118504791#Comment_118504791

Just because someone is very smart, doesn't mean they'll make the most money.

Isn't it great that our education system allows someone who doesn't do well academically to do very well anyways?

steddyeddy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118504791#Comment_118504791

Thanks for mentioning the high drop out rates. This isn't mentioned at all in relation to the points discussion. Science in general has high drop out rates. I have taught people with 500 plus points who couldn't grasp a concept as well with someone with more passion for the course.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118504810#Comment_118504810

Totally agree that it doesn't mean they'll have the most. But it's pretty telling that you ignored the fact that now a degree has become popular, it would actually be inaccessible to people in the industry. So people with a clear aptitude can't get into degrees that suit them at this point in time. So instead you will get people who aren't suited many of whom won't even complete it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118504822#Comment_118504822

Yep, it's really the part about the system that makes no sense. Eg my sister is a nurse but she wouldn't get the points now. Meanwhile a person who isn't necessarily suited to nursing ends up doing the degree.

steddyeddy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118504883#Comment_118504883

This exactly. So many got into science because they were told it was good for their career rather than having an inclination for it. Getting 600 points, i.e. memorizing facts doesn't make you a good scientist i.e. someone with the ability to find out something new.

airy fairy

Points are gained from the wrong areas. H1 Spanish and french (only an example) and a few mediocre grades in other subjects and they get engineering (an example only). Students are then stumped for the maths module in college and cannot keep up as there was no requirements for a, say H2 in maths or physics. Perhaps if courses required high points in relevant areas it might help in drop outs.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118504605#Comment_118504605

Well I lived there and have family living there and anyone can go to college, it doesn't depend on your socio economic background.

If you want to go to college to study agriculture, why should you get extra points for having honours maths? The British system will expect you to have certain grades in certain subjects. Much better system