Do men need a license to be allowed socialise (MOD NOTE IN OP)

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118522345#Comment_118522345

Two things to say about this.

Firstly, thanks for giving another example of where all of a sudden men are concerned about womens sports only when they can use it to fight another demon in their eyes, that of trans rights. I would suspect that the reason women don't comment so much about this is because for the most part, it is not a big issue in that the number of trans people who actually do this is very small in the greater scheme of things. I am actually of the opinion that testosterone benefits pre-transition cannot always be overcome and I suspect if the numbers dominating, as you say were problematic, then women in general would look at this and act in their greater interests.

Secondly, if you weren't scared of the concept of feminists, maybe you could ask them yourself.

cokeiscrap

If the number 1 selling brand in this country get to jump on another band wagon, then they would probably ask for men to have a licence to socialise.

In the last couple of years they dismissed a male employee because a female colleague made an unproven allegation against him.

The female instead of going to the police authorities, decided instead to go to her boss claiming that she had been sexually assaulted/raped.

What was equally as disturbing, was that the WRC upheld the decision by the company and said the alleged(unproven) event had only happened because they were at a company social event and therefore was considered work. The WRC failed to take into account that the company supplied them with free alcoholic beverages for most of the event. Of course this shouldn't matter if the alleged incident took place, of which there was no proof of this.

Even the males legal team were astounded at the decision as they had advised him that it was not a work related incident and advised him to answer no comment to any question that they had deemed non work related. This was unbelievably seen by the WRC as not proving his innocence.

The full case can be found in the WRC decisions if you search for Beverage company.

Pawwed Rig

Work nights out are always considered as work and have been for decades.

cokeiscrap

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118528170#Comment_118528170

I wonder are you confusing work nights out, where it would be optional to attend, rather than team-building events that normally would take place during worktime to ensure that everyone attends? No one that was at the function where this alleged assault took place was forced to be there. Apart from HR and management, who would be expected to be at the Christmas party to try and show the "workers" that they really are all a team 🤡 🤡

Where/when does the Work night out end? Is it when the free bar closes if there is one or is it when the venue closes? Is the company responsible for getting you to the event if you have gone home/somewhere else to change into your casual/going out clothes? Are they also responsible for ensuring your safe journey home after the event?

If the night out is held in a hotel are you forced to stay there, even if there is a reduced rate for employees or are you able to decide to go to your own residence? If you decide to stay in the hotel, why would it be the responsibility of the employer to ensure your safety when they have long ended the free meal, free (alcoholic)drinks, band and the banqueting hall has been cleared. What if you then decide that you have not had enough of the partying and festivities and because you are staying at the hotel, you decide to continue your nights activities by deciding to avail of the residents bar? Is the company you work for still responsible for your actions and safety? If they are, would they not also be responsible for supplying you with intoxicating substances at your place of work? Surely this is illegal and needs to be investigated by the H.S.A. as the WRC deemed the alleged assault to have occurred due to the actions of the employer in holding the event and providing hotel rooms at a reduced rate.

It was after all this that the alleged incident took place and where I believe the WRC overstepped its governance. Maybe I am wrong, but surely everyone is entitled to the presumption of innocent until proved guilty.

Why wasn't the incident reported to the police? I have no logical understanding of why someone would rather go to their boss/shift manager to make a complaint as serious as sexual assault/rape rather than the policing authorities. Then, if the authorities believed there was a case to answer, then take disciplinary action against the employee that had been accused of this vile offence and have a final decision delayed regarding their employment until all criminal charges had been processed and a court decision arrived at.

A work night out organised and/or paid/subsidised by a company is considered work. Always has. Surprised your buddies solicitors didn't know that.

Also, you cannot force any victims to report a crime! Jesus, what sort of country would that be.

Pawwed Rig

Is your company responsible for getting you into work and home again safely? Of course not. I assume they hired adults for a reason

Potential-Monke

A man in Germany successfully claimed a workplace accident claim when he fell down his stairs going to his home office... I'm sure leaving the house and driving there would also be covered if this is the indication of things to come.

Is this the latest 'men can't be trusted' thing?

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118538291#Comment_118538291

No, it's the latest 'fella thinks he shouldn't be held accountable for his actions' thing.

Pawwed Rig

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118538269#Comment_118538269

There are all sorts of crazy laws around the world that don't apply here. We are talking about Ireland

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118538377#Comment_118538377

It's a very broad generalization, and a crap one at that.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118540992#Comment_118540992

Are you talking about people using a single comment from a radio show panel discussion being taken as a national strategy for men which is about to be implemented?

Because that's what happened here.

Pawwed Rig

It is a discussion site. Commentators on the national media are worthy of discussion. Have a look through the site. There are threads about all sorts of opinion pieces. This thread didn't even last that long compared to many others

Leg End Reject

Discussing the merits of the suggestion that men need to be educated doesn't mean we all think its implementation is imminent.

If we were only to discuss current events there would only be one forum.

cokeiscrap

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118537408#Comment_118537408

Hi @bubblypop Just wondering if you are a solicitor/barrister.

Would it be possible for you to attach a link to the information that a work night out event, which falls outside your normal work hours, is still considered work, even though you have no obligation to be there. Who is responsible if you fall and injure yourself in the premises that a night out was been held? The employer or the owner of the venue the event was happening

The alleged victim in this case reported an alleged crime to her manager. If the alleged crime had been reported to those who investigate potential crimes, i.e. the police, then we might have had a more reliable finding to what actually occurred that night/morning.

cokeiscrap

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118538125#Comment_118538125

You would hope not. What we do have to ascertain though, is when does work begin and when does it end. Does work begin when you enter the factory carpark or only when you clock in. Does work finish when you clock out or when you exit the company carpark.

As with a team night out. Does the night out start when you enter the hotel/venue or maybe when you've had your first beverage? Equally, when does the night out end? Is it when the entertainment, if any, finishes or is it when the function room staff clear the room to begin the cleaning?

If you are staying at the hotel where the function has been held, does the team night out continue until the night porter in charge of the residents bar decides to close up or does the night out continue until you have dragged yourself out of bed the following day and checked out of the hotel?

cokeiscrap

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118538377#Comment_118538377

Do you know what's worse?

Imagine been held accountable for something you didn't do because the company you worked for decided to take action to an unproven allegation against you. MUCH, MUCH WORSE

Did the fact that the WRC adjudicated on the case lost on you?

Quantum Erasure

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118562260#Comment_118562260

that doesn't necessarily mean anything

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/retail-and-services/boyfriend-of-woman-in-starbucks-racial-incident-wrongly-accused-of-slur-1.4463425

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118562562#Comment_118562562

If they do not have jurisdiction, then the case is thrown out.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118562606#Comment_118562606

Not to mention the individual could then go back to the WRC with a case for wrongful dismissal against the company.

cokeiscrap

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118562260#Comment_118562260

No, but are you ruling out any chance that they may have got the decision wrong and may have been swayed by a particular movement over the past couple of years?

If they got the decision right, then was one side of this case given very bad advice?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118567265#Comment_118567265

First you don't believe that a work night out is considered a work place.

Then you don't believe that the court was correct in its judgement.

Which is it?

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118567265#Comment_118567265

May have been swayed by a particular movement over the past couple of years

Are you seriously suggesting that the WRC is bending to social media or some sort of supposed current affair narrative?

cokeiscrap

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118567551#Comment_118567551

Not only do I not believe that a work night out is the workplace, a highly renowned solicitors practice didn't either.

It is not like a work team building exercise that would take place on company time. This event happened outside work and no one was obliged or forced to be there. The company also supplied free alcoholic beverages which is surely against safety at work practices.

I don't believe that both the WRC was correct in its decision or the solicitor in the advice that was given and that is why I have asked for clarity if it can be given over in the Legal Discussion Forum.

You still haven't given ant evidence, apart from this WRC ruling, that work nights out are considered work and as you say, have been for the past 20years.

cokeiscrap

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118567900#Comment_118567900

Yes. I am seriously suggesting this.

Potential-Monke

It's a work night out in the same sense that the barman is responsible for ensuring you don't get drunk. No issues, until there's an issue. I always assumed a work night out was work related, not social related. Especially ones where only the employees and their partners are allowed attend/if there's an area booked off for the crowd.

Now, a group of employees coming together and just having a night out, that's not work related. But organised by, sometimes paid for by your employer? That's a work do.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118567973#Comment_118567973

The Employment Equality Act 1998 (Code of Practice) (Harassment) Order 2012 S.I. No. 208 of 2012 sets out a Code of Practice on Sexual Harassment and Harassment at Work (Code of Practice). This Code of Practice is issued as a guideline for employers and employees. The provisions of the code are admissible in evidence in proceedings before an Adjudication Hearing of the Workplace Relations Commission.

The Code, amongst other things, sets out the scope of sexual harassment provisions: "The scope of the sexual harassment and harassment provisions extend beyond the workplace, for example to conferences and training that occur outside the workplace. It may extend to work-related social events.”

Seems a solicitor from a highly renowned practice should have known this. Last sentence is what you are interested in.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118567973#Comment_118567973

Google HR Ireland Christmas night's out/ corporate events.

There are lots of results that will show you, you are wrong and so is the solicitors firm. I would suggest in future employing the services of a solicitors firm specialising in employment law/human resources or just speaking to an employment law specialist.

cokeiscrap

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118568212#Comment_118568212

Thanks for clearing that up.

I genuinely believed that work finished when you left the premises

I still don't think the outcome would have been any different for the male. He was getting dismissed whether he gave his side of the story or kept with the legal advice to say no comment. And that is wrong in every way. There should have been criminal charges at least before dismissal.