Ashling Murphy RIP - a discussion *please read the OP before posting*

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118481312#Comment_118481312

Oh yes? Which senior gardai? From which unit in the Phoenix park?

And of course you have proof that the local gardai leaked information?

BorneTobyWilde

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118481344#Comment_118481344

That's just hiding behind stats that means very little, every girl/woman has a story of some man or men that try it on with them, or make unwanted sexual advances towards them. While every guy most likely wishes every girl/woman would try it on with them or make suggestive sexual advances towards them.

HalfAndHalf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118481372#Comment_118481372

Ok, we get you. All men are dangerous predators! You may as well move along now. Thanks for your input.

_gir

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118481373#Comment_118481373

but the problem is the vicious people you talk about are overwhelmingly male! By calling them people, you’re removing a very common trend between them. Society must ask itself why are most of its violent people male?

Barrita

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118481317#Comment_118481317

I was on about my female friends. Thats my lived experience and you are entitled to yours.

griffin100

I haven’t seen anyone wolf whistling at a woman since I was a kid (the 1980s) and thought it had died out in this country but could be wrong. However I was in Spain a couple of years ago with a group of teenagers and was shocked at the level of sexual aggression the girls received. Grown men on building sites would turn off machinery so they could be heard when they roared at the girls. In many cases the hand signals made it clear what they wanted to do to the girls. Men would stop and in some cases U turn cars to follow and comment to the girls. The girls were between 14 and 16 years old. As a father I have to say it was vile to see. You can’t say this sort of behaviour is harmless.

For me respect for and between both sexes is key and can be taught to young kids and kids can learn this by observing adults and parents. However you will never remove violence from the world through education. There will always be violence. Part of the response has to be a deterrent in the form of proper punishment for violence. It’s a joke in this country. There was a case last week where a man defiled his young cousin and got 30 months in prison - he already had 140 convictions. It won’t fix all issues but it will help.

Also can we stop trying to link violence to mental health. Yes it’s an issue in some cases, but some people are just fcuking bad and nothing will stop them being violent.

The usual suspects turning this into men v women issue is also not helping IMO. Where were these people when Urantsetseg Tserendorj was murdered in Dublin?

RIP to Ashling and condolences to her family.

_gir

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118481418#Comment_118481418

You’re being purposefully obtuse, I said the vast majority of assaulters are male, not all men are dangerous predators. If you can’t see the difference, it’s because of your own faulty reasoning

John Doe1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118481372#Comment_118481372

"Men must do better" is so condescending.

So because males happen to victims of assault by other males, that lessens the importance of the assaults against them?

To reduce the rate of violence by men v women, men v men, we need tougher judicial sentences and mental health supports not blaming men for their apparent intrinsic evil.

Also, stating the obvious here but men are more aggressive by nature due to biological factors like testosterone, the twitter blame game is not going to change that either.

titan18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118481336#Comment_118481336

Yup. If we're doing the slippery slope stuff, we should be coming down harder on knife crime amongst teenagers nowadays, or the gangs of then terrorising people in our cities, and of course items like cruelty to animals (you'd see lots of articles on animals being attacked with fireworks from kids/teenagers).

Not the banter stuff that goes on in both genders WhatsApp groups or whatever (hell based on some I'm in its lots of memes about a certain big guy called Barry).

Ten of Swords

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118481396#Comment_118481396

Mod - we're not discussing the Garda investigation, read post #1 again. There will be no more warnings about this.

AyeGer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118480740#Comment_118480740

But nobody is wolf-whistling you walshb. If you were a woman and particularly an attractive woman who has been facing this for years I’m sure it gets old really fast. Add to that the fact that these women can feel in physical danger from a larger stronger man doing the whistling or shouting. It’s often intimidating and some women will be getting this crap from the age of about 14 up, from men who probably physically repulse them. I believe a lot of work needs to be done on that.

anewme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118480901#Comment_118480901

Yes you are defending it.

In the opening thread, the discussions is about can be done to help women feel safe.

Let them go about their business in peace for a start. They don't want or need your male banter. While I cant speak for all women, its safe to say that given the feedback on social media, that the majority of women do not want to be harassed when out for a run, walk or coffee.

You seem unable to grasp that this is intimidation.

Women should not have to put up with "the small stuff here that males do from time to time".

Not all "males". And the "males" that do it, need to stop it. It's far from ok.

Your posts are totally tone deaf given the conversation on the table here.

But it 100% demonstrate what the problem is.

anewme

HalfAndHalf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118481431#Comment_118481431

Your previous posts have continually stated that’s why ‘men must do better’

You are being purposefully antagonistic so don’t be surprised when you get called on it!

I very much can see the difference, if your bothered to read my previous posts that much is completely obvious.

Stop generalising that ‘men must do better’ it’s generalistic nonsense!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118481426#Comment_118481426

only women with extremely low self esteem would find random men commenting on them or wolf whistling at them in anyway flattering.

John Doe1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118481469#Comment_118481469

That is very judgemental......

walshb

anewme, not all women think a wolf whistle is intimidation.. Some do. I know this….stop speaking for all women on this in your efforts to criticise male behaviours.

Nobody is condoning anyone intimidating anyone.

The issue is the ridiculous OTT dramatising and the illogical conflating of general and innocent and harmless banter between sexes with sexual deviants and predators and violent people.

This does nothing but divide and polarise.

Barrita

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118481435#Comment_118481435

Super post.

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118481420#Comment_118481420

Thousands of years of evolution is the reason, not easily resolved with a hashtag

OneLungDavy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118481420#Comment_118481420

You can blame evolution for that. The same reason most people who go to war are male, join the police force, fire brigade, paramedics etc.

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118481327#Comment_118481327

Yes. Common sense really.

_gir

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118481434#Comment_118481434

Never said it lessens it, said men make up the vast majority of assaulters. Is it because of biological factors as you say above? Nobody can answer that, it’s impossible. What can be answered, is that men are more likely to be assaulters than women and that needs to change, whether by your own suggestions or others. If not, then we’re just accepting that men always will be more likely to be assaulters and if that’s what you want to do and just accept murders like this as a result then fine

_gir

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118481503#Comment_118481503

So this is a tragedy but c’est la vie because of evolution and just accept it. That’s pretty **** weak sauce and cowardly

Barrita

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118481469#Comment_118481469

Thats not a very nice thing to say is it. Very judgmental.

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118481469#Comment_118481469

This is a ridiculous generalisation…

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118481469#Comment_118481469

I'm not sure about this. I'm torn. I think low self worth can be a reason but I think a woman can have healthy self esteem and still be flattered.

I would be more amused than anything.

martingriff

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118481508#Comment_118481508

Also as you say some well but not all so maybe leave your banter for you friends who do. There must be a better way to flirt and talk with someone you like

So you saying girls not some girls may have been seeing as generalising. Maybe when some here say men they may not be generalising and they only mean some. Common sense

Spanish Eyes

I reckon most hetero men would never cat call or wolf whistle a man. Women though, ah sher what the heck, they will love it and be flattered by all the attention. Nope, as another poster said it becomes boring and is so childish. Easy to cat call from a moving car, a building site, etc. than say something nice to the woman's face. Cowards from afar with what they think is irresistable charm.

I have noticed also that men can make comments to a woman that they would never make to a man. For example, "ah come on love, give us a smile, it might never happen". A bloke would deck you, but women are expected to smile and be nice for men, it is their right to have eye candy on hand, not someone who has had a hard day, lost someone to Covid, lost their job, ah no, just smile for me, I deserve it.

So you see much as I agree that most men are not murderers, many unconsciously assert their superiority over women in more subtle ways than a dig in the mush or physical violence.

As someone said on LBC radio at the time of the Sarah Everard murder (London, by a cop) whose male colleagues did not report his dubious sexual activities beforehand, "Not all men are monsters, but all monsters are men" Because they can, are stronger bigger and would knock most women over with a feather. Just saying.

Respect for boundaries is long overdue, it is no one's right to intimidate women, and those who dismiss it as banter and harmless haven't got a clue what it's like to walk in a woman's shoes nowadays, and probably forever.

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118481570#Comment_118481570

I have said several times that I am aware that some females will take offence at being wolf whistled at.

This horrific murder has shown up twitter for what it is, a stomach churning cesspit that needs to be regulated to the brink of extinction. Some of the commentators there should really be ashamed of themselves.

The racism and generalizing of men is completely unwarranted. I even read comments suggesting to tag all men.

I, as are many other men are good husband's, father's, sons, brothers who do right and are utterly devastated by this senseless act and what the family are going through. I was travelling North today in the car with my missus and she was reading articles online and honestly I had to stop the conversation as I was fit to cry. It is just so horrible.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118481575#Comment_118481575

All monsters are not men. Myra Hindley, Aileen Wournos, Rosemary West, etc and the countless women who allow and participate in the abuse of their children.

titan18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118481510#Comment_118481510

We're not a hivemind though. Its not like we get an alert saying a man is going to murder someone and we can stop him remotely.

You need better policing, better sentencing, better mental health services, better education services etc to help protect and serve everyone regardless of gender.

All the stuff now just serves to divide people because for a lot of us it's not us catcalling or whistling or assaulting and killing people but we're being tarred with that brush just cos of our gender.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118481552#Comment_118481552

Low self esteem or part of the generation who have to advertise their lives online for likes/thanks.

doesn't bother me in the slightest, but flattered? Nah.

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118481575#Comment_118481575

I genuinely have never seen a cat call in real life ever. And I've been around alot. It's something I've only ever saw in 80s American movies.

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118481469#Comment_118481469

I would have thought the exact opposite

_gir

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118481540#Comment_118481540

where did o say all men? I’m only posting because I didn’t like the direction this thread was going. People complaining about how all men are being generalised as assaulters as if that’s the worst outcome of a young woman’s murder and not seeing the grief and anger being felt by a society. If people think that’s being antagonistic then fine I’ll stop posting

The entire country is numb with shock.

Galwayguy35

RIP Ashling.

Have to say I also thought some people were using Ashlings death to push their agenda, yes I know Twitter is a cesspit but it was bad form that a few hours after her death half the population of Ieland were being demonized for the actions of one horrible man.

I don't agree with lads making comments to women passing them on the street and in my group of friends growing up nobody did it.

Somebody was on Matt Coopers show yesterday saying if a man heard other lads making comments they should confront them, now thats easy to say sitting that in a studio but one man going up to a group of young men could end up getting his teeth knocked out or worse and its not as if people like that would suddenly have an epiphany and see the error of their ways.

99.9% of men are decent human beings and some of the carry on over the last few days portraying us all as would be predators with no respect of women is not the way to go about trying to find a solution to issues they want to highlight.

Car99

Terrible tragedy the murder of Aishling Murphy . RiP. Why wasn't there a similar outpouring of grief and anger when mother of two Urantsetseg Tserendorj was fatally stabbed in the back on her walk home from work in Dublin last January ? Unfortunately this murder is being hijacked by certain groups to push their agenda.

martingriff

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118481588#Comment_118481588

You also said you be chuffed and they should not take it as a big deal. Now I edited a bit in relation to that message. I will add it here.

Also as you say some well but not all so maybe leave your banter for you friends who do. There must be a better way to flirt and talk with a woman

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118481165#Comment_118481165

I dont know any women whod be flattered by a wolfwhistle.

Be right back

May Ashling rest in peace. Terrible story. Greatly moved by all the vigils around country and further afield.

Barrita

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118481603#Comment_118481603

I mean the Ghislaine Maxwell case was only concluded a week or so ago.....They seem to have already forgotten.

The most prolific murderer on these shores in the last 5 years was a woman killing her 3 children.

Rootsblower

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118481507#Comment_118481507

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118481420#Comment_118481420

The most violent in society are generally male because since humans first stood upright and walked men have fought all wars and been the hunter of prey and women have been fine with that because they didn’t have to go off and die on some godforsaken beach at 18 years of age.

billyhead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118481082#Comment_118481082

And who's to know the culprit wasn't a woman. The mountain bike was a woman's bike although I have seen men riding women's bikes.

John Doe1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118481606#Comment_118481606

100 % agree, there is not some secret male society where we all decide to intimidate women, there is actually quite a bit of variation in temperament and attitudes between males. Most are law-abiding decent men and there is a very very small minority who involve themselves in violence (who often have a mental illness).

In my fairly normal group of friends, we might banter about women in private but if any of my friends actually sexually assaulted or physically assaulted a women, we would completely shun him. I would say this is like 99.9% of Irish males.

This is a complete tragedy but people need to stop the sexism against males, it does not help Ashling's family and friends.

Barrita

Making lads stop whistling at women out of the window of the Honda Civic is not going to make them materially any safer.

Tougher policing and sentencing will. But that takes more shoe leather than a hashtag.

martingriff

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118481633#Comment_118481633

At the time there certainly was a lot about how unsafe Dublin was getting but unfortunately like this in a few weeks it will have faded and something else will take its place until the trial is on

HalfAndHalf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118481619#Comment_118481619

1. That wasn’t how you were posting, I’ve re-read all you posts. You’ve said things such as, but the vast majority of assaulters are men etc. that’s why all men must do better
2. The point myself and others have made us that turning this into a social media and political demonisation of all men, just as yourself, the Late Late last night, social media and even the Taoiseach have done, does nothing but create a divide, takes away from the facts and detracts from the actual cause and issues that need to be resolved.

If you think your posts haven’t pointed the finger at men and you haven’t typed the words ‘that’s why all men should do better’ then I don’t know what to say!

iamwhoiam

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118481633#Comment_118481633

For me and maybe for others it was the straw that broke the camels back . I was shocked and saddened by the awful death of Urantsetseg and others . All murders are equally sad and equally horrific . Aishlings death was just that one that hit a raw nerve and people stepped forward to say “ enough is enough “

It doesn’t lessen any other sad death but each death adds up to the dam bursting with grief .

I think many who came out to grieve came to grieve for all those innocent people murdered by others .