Vrt problem with motor dealer

Aly Daly

I am having serious problems with a motor dealer in the South East who refuses to Vrt a UK import jeep i have purchased from him, the issue has been going on since July & I am continously been given the runaround, the dealer has been selling exclusively UK imports so I am assuming there are many in the same situation.

Atlantic Dawn

Is he a proper dealer with a premises? It is an offence for to sell a foreign registered car here without registering it on Irish plates for you first.

Aly Daly

Yes he is a registered dealer with a premises, he originally traded in the UK & has an interesting past there, the fact that his actions are illegal make absolutely no difference to him & I am told it would take a minimum of 18 months to go through the courts system.

mickdw

Why did you take the vehicle on UK plates?

He has probably keep this sale off his books altogether and will let you whistle now.

Might deny all knowledge of sale if no proper records.

Do you have the v5 registration document for it? If not, it's even worse.

Atlantic Dawn

It's going to be a bit of a mess for you, your insurance will inform Revenue after 50 days of it being on UK plates, this could then lead to seizure.

Have you done any calculations for the VRT and do they match what dealer originally stated? Do you have the V5 document? If you have the V5 document it might be easier to just VRT it yourself and leave it at that.

Aly Daly

The sale was done through my debit card & I have an invoice & V5, the day I bought the vehicle he told me he had arranged a Vrt inspection & showed me proof of the same. I have been whistling for a while now.

Aly Daly

OK Atlantic Dawn I will probably have to Vrt it myself as you say, this is easier said than done.

Atlantic Dawn

How old is the vehicle? Could it have been a shock with the VRT amount that has him steering clear of it? Is it a private vehicle or commercial? If it's a private pre Sept 2015 diesel the NOX figure could be as high as €4850 and the VRT on top of that.

mickdw

Are you aware of the issues around registering UK imports since Brexit.

They will charge you vat as well as the vrt unless it was a northern Irish import

Aly Daly

Commercial vehicle post Sept 2015.He would have been aware of the vrt with just no intention of paying it, its a mess really.

Atlantic Dawn

No NOX for a commercial vehicle, may be VAT with the VRT if it was registered in UK mainland prior to Brexit.

Aly Daly

Yes mickdw I am aware now of Vrt & vat charges, the vehicle was first registered in the UK.

Aly Daly

Registered UK mainland Atlantic Dawn prior to Brexit, good few vehicles advertised by him at the moment all UK imports.

Aly Daly

It is my understanding that only the person that imported the vehicle may Vrt it,maybe revenue will understand my plight I don't know, perhaps I can re sell it in the UK.

bazz26

What is the issue that the dealer is having with VRTing the vehicle? Why did they sell you the vehicle without first VRTing it? A dealer is legally required to sell a UK vehicles to an Irish resident only after it has been VRT'd and registered on Irish plates for the new owner.

Aly Daly

Hi bazz26, it doesn't matter to the dealer that this practice is illegal as he is well aware that court proceedings take approx 18 months to come around, his issue with vrting the vehicle is that he doesn't want to do it & has had his money, as I say he has in history UK. In hindsight I should have seen this, I am in business but don't know much about the motor trade & needed a vehicle asap. He had a lot of UK imports for sale at the time i purchased mine so I assume there is a trail of destruction behind him, he no longer advertise on what I assume is Ireland biggest second hand motor trade platform.

AndrewJRenko

Is the dealer a SIMI member? Can you start Small Claims Court proceedings against him?

Aly Daly

Not a SIMI member AndrewJRenko, small claims is €2,000 max & vrt+vat well above that.

mickdw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118334242#Comment_118334242

You will need the v5 which you have, a receipt for the purchase from UK or northern Ireland and proof of when it entered the country.

Before Brexit, all sorts of crap was accepted for these but won't be the case now as vat is due on the UK invoice price plus delivery cost.

Turning up with an Irish garage invoice for a UK reg vehicle would be interesting.

I wouldn't go about doing it myself yet. Chase that dealer. Do whatever is needed including bringing revenue down on him. He is a scumbag so feck him.

Aly Daly

Mickdw, receipt is Irish I have no way of accessing UK invoice price or delivery cost, I am assuming I have already paid vat on the purchase cost but I do realise that won't wash with revenue, will they allow me through explaining my predicament to register the vehicle, I am prepared to pay Vrt & vat & possibly duty on the vehicle at this stage, trying to plead with the dealer is a waste of time, a Google of his name is a horror story of motor trade crime.I realise I maybe should have googled him previous to buying the vehicle but there must be dozens like me & counting.

bazz26

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118334407#Comment_118334407

I'm sure Revenue would be very interesting in this individual and his business practices because it sounds like he doesn't want to VRT the vehicle for you so that he can stay below their radar regarding declared earnings. You would be surprised how the system can speed up when Revenue come into the mix.

That might be your only avenue in this situation I'm afraid.

Aly Daly

bazz26, he automatically declared this transaction as I used his credit card machine to pay for the vehicle & he gave me a headed notepaper receipt, but I agree something will have to be done in relation to informing them of the vehicles presence.

MakersMark

Phone Revenue and inform them.

colm_mcm

Assume this is a crewcab?

Aly Daly

Yes crew cab colm_mcm

mickdw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118334692#Comment_118334692

I think it's abit green green to assume he has processed this sale through his business just because you paid by card. He probably has a web of dodgy businesses and your payment is shuffled through that.

It will be suitable proof that you bought off him to anyone looking at it objectively but I wouldn't be assuming that it went through that garage accounts or profits declared anywhere.

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118334651#Comment_118334651

I'm sure revenue will and the OP should definitely report them to revenue, but that won't help the OP get onto Irish plates.

OP have you done a history check on the UK reg and got it checked out by your mechanic? If the seller has as bad a reputation as you say the vehicle could be stolen, a right off or just unroadworthy. Also contact your bank and see if they can do anything to reverse the transfer and then return the vehicle to the dealer.

Aly Daly

mickdw it's not my concern what he declares as income, my concern is what to do next, I understand that if all relevant documents are not with the vehicle at the time of inspection revenue will not vrt it. What I need from this discussion with respect to you & others who have contributed is an expert in Vrt matters post Brexit & ideally someone who knows what to do in this situation, contacting revenue & outlying what happened may have very negative results for me regarding whether or not they will put the vehicle on Irish plates. I now feel like a criminal driving around while the perpetrator of this fraud sits back & let's me squirm.

Aly Daly

Del2005, I had done all the relevant checks & had the vehicle looked at by a main dealer who said it was fine. I can ask the bank but will they reverse a transfer from July?

AndrewJRenko

Just a note of caution that several car importation businesses have been found to be connected to serious organised crime groupings. I guess your choices are to try to nag or push him into fixing the issue by standing in front of him, or else take legal action.

Aly Daly

AndrewJRenko, if you stood in front of this guy he would apologise profusely & tell you it will be all sorted in no time, the legal thing is a waste of time.

AndrewJRenko

Why is the legal thing a waste of time? It will cost you a few quid for sure, but it may be the only option to get it sorted.

Unless you think he's going to go under or do a runner?

mickdw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118336599#Comment_118336599

It was you who declared here that all was good with the transaction as you paid by card. My point was that he could still be denying the sale went through his business regardless of card payment.

You messed up by dealing with a cowboy. You know this. You are down money whatever way you go so just sell it in north and be done.

User1998

This shouldn’t be a major issue. You have all of the required documentation to VRT the car yourself. You have an invoice, you have the v5. If you have to pay VAT/customs you will get a SAD document which acts as your proof of entry into the state. After the VRT you can get the dealer to pay the VAT/customs through the small claims court and it definitely won’t take 18 months.

Or you could just sell the car up North

Aly Daly

Thank you all for your input & in the grand scheme of things it's not the end of the world. This sort of thing can & does happen and I think it is important to state that none of us are above being lured into a financial trap, it's the first time anything like it has happened to me and I was extremely silly to let it happen. Thank you User1998 for that advice very much appreciated.

goochy

Tell him you will get revenue involved if its not sorted

seagull

Was the cost of vrt supposed to be included in what you paid him? If so, he hasn't supplied what you paid for. Give him back the car, and issue a chargeback on the card.

Aly Daly

seagull, Vrt was to be included & I have looked at terms & conditions with my bank which says 120 days to bring up a query on a purchase , the sale, was in July but maybe it would be worth talking to them.

User1998

So you’ve paid him for the VRT?

Aly Daly

Yes I gave him the price he was looking for less some negotiation, the vehicle was then to be Vrt registered in my name inclusive of purchase price.

bazz26

OP, you need to be clear here. Did the dealer sell you the vehicle at a price including VRT or excluding VRT?

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118336599#Comment_118336599

Why is it not your concern?

I have no idea why you're not reporting this to the relevant authorities, you haven't done any thing wrong. I'd be dropping into my local Garda station to explain the situation, this guy needs to be investigated.

Aly Daly

bazz26, including Vrt.

Aly Daly

standardg60, to make things clear I have discussed this matter with my solicitor who has wtote to the dealer & rang him. During the phone conversation he told my solicitor he would get on to it straight away, I heard nothing from him. I mentioned the guards to the solicitor who told me it was a civil matter.My solicitor also informed me that getting him into court will take approximately 18 months with no guarantee of recovering anything if he happens to be potless at the time. Small claims is 2k max but it might be worth a try.

Marcusm

Is he a proper dealer? Did he give you a proper amount invoice. If yes then I would copy the paperwork and send it to Revenue at the address below. You might think that “I can’t be arsed, I’ll just move on” but there are two reasons why you should. Firstly, when you present it for inspection, you will not be able to prove when it entered the State but it may be recorded already. This will expose you to a penalty for late payment. If the dealer has a a TAN number, he will have committed an offence by providing the car to you without registering it. Tell that to your solicitor, it’s an”each way” offence - up to 12 months at District Court or 5 years at Circuit Criminal Court. (Your solicitor will realise that while this is not a Garda matter, it certainly is a criminal rather than civil matter.). This may assist you in recovering whatever money he owes you.

The second reason is that knobs like this won’t change unless they are reported.

The Central Vehicle Office,

Revenue Commissioners,

Anne Street,

Wexford,

Y35 E29K.

Charles Babbage

I'd talk to the Revenue, they are not at all pleased when people collect money including taxes and then do not pass the tax element on to them. While you can offer to settle the bill, if they subsequently recover the VRT from the dealer than it should not have to be paid twice and perhaps they would refund you in that case.

Aly Daly

Charles Babbage, thanks for that.

Aly Daly

Marcusm, I have a full invoice & card machine receipt, the dealer has a Tan number, User1998 mentioned a SAD document as proof of entry into the country. I am considering either selling in the North which I presume is no problem possibly using a well known auction like Wilson or Vrt it myself & contact the Gardaí despite the fact that my solicitor told me it was a civil matter.I am very conscious that this is happening to others who use this dealer.

paul71

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118354656#Comment_118354656

This ^^^,

In Ireland the Gardai move slowly if at all, the courts take years, solicitors will clearly dealing chasing a financial strawman is pointless.

On the other hand revenue move like grease lightening, have teeth and require no interaction with the courts to issue a sheriffs warrant. If this guy has not paid VRT then he has undoubtedly also failed to properly account for VAT on the transaction (indeed it is not possible to determine VAT without VRT).

Tell your friendly dealer he has a definitive deadline to complete the transaction and provide an invoice of Sale to you which complies with Tax legislation as a valid VAT invoice or you will provide all details of the transaction to Audit section the Inspector of taxes.

https://www.ros.ie/online-enquiry-web/goodCitizen;rjsessionid=E24C4105481A124F7813C48B31873A54?execution=e1s1

Aly Daly

paul71, i am concerned that contacting revenue/Guards will result in seizure of the vehicle & late fees etc on Vrt ruling out selling in the North however I do appreciate I will have to make up my mind on what to do, I threatened the dealer long ago with reporting him to revenue & Guards and he just said there was no need as he would Vrt the vehicle,that was probably in September some time.

User1998

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118356808#Comment_118356808

Yeah at the beginning I told you to VRT it yourself or sell it in the North. But that was before you mentioned you have paid the dealer for the VRT and he just hasn’t done it.

If you sell it in the North through an auction you’ll loose thousands, and if you VRT it yourself you will also loose thousands.

I honestly don’t know what you should do. I would probably report him to Revenue at this stage.