Angus Bull for Suckler Herd

Pat2

Hi

Just wondering if any of you have any experience using an Aberdeen Angus bull on continental cows in a suckler herd. We have been breeding continentals for years and have used simmental, limo, charolais and sold as weanlings but I'm thinking of crossing my simmental/charolais cows with an angus bull and holding the offset spring to try and finish them at 20/22 months with just 1 winter in the shed. My reasoning is that they should calf easier, less maintenance (no de-horning), and with the angus bonus in the factory and possible reduction in slaughter age I think it might suit. Any comments are appreciated.

Thanks

Who2

Sounds great but the truth I believe is that anyone staying in sucklers is going to have to breed top quality stock if they want to turn a profit. There are plenty of good weanlings come into more than aa finished stock and are gone at 7 or eight months rather than holding to 20 or 22 months.

blue5000

Doing it here, but more so to produce replacements in a closed herd. Heaviest aax bull we had was around 425 kg cw out of a blonde cow. Huge variation in aa bull quality now, getting harder to find a decent bull.

Pat2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118292542#Comment_118292542

Thanks for replying. That was another reason I am considering it to have some replacements without Holstein breeding in them. How is it going for you? What age was the 425kg aax bull?

Hard Knocks

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058221952/angus-bull-for-suckler-herd

Local man did it when he joined Organics, he’d great calves due to the continental cows, but as the cows were replaced the calves off the AAX daughters weren’t as good

jfh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118292542#Comment_118292542

Agree with blue, Very hard to get a decent angus bull & you'll pay a handsome price. I changed back to 5 star limo bull that was half the price, if I need to sell before finishing I can whereas with the angus had to hold off & the cross of the ch was poor I found, crossed nicely with the blue

squinn2912

I often found Angus very flighty, especially when bulling. Possibly that was ones with fresian in them. Have had very few here in the last number of years

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058221952/angus-bull-for-suckler-herd

It’s hard to get a beefy angus with a good growth rate. Probably cost around 3 k.

Stabiliser could be an option as well.

Albert Johnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118292745#Comment_118292745

You've raised a very valid point regarding the difference in stock quality off continental versus traditional bred cows. A local man I'd occasionally help out changed to an Angus bull on his suckler herd about 7 or 8 years back. Before that he alternated between a CH and Simmental bull and kept his own replacements. He had great sorts of SI cows that crossed well with the AA bull and were fit to rear smashing weanlings that sold well at any stage.

In the last 2 or 3 years these cows have been largely culled out of the herd and replaced with his own AA bred replacements. When crossed back to the AA bull there progeny are 75% or more AA. In my opinion the resulting weanlings are not anything like the quality he used to have especially if compared to there comrades off his few remaining older continental bred cows. He's now having to keep most of his weanlings through to forward stores in an attempt to get them into reasonable prices where as before they were saleable at any stage. Imo he'd be better off selling everything as a weanling and buying in a few quality continental bred heifers to replace cull cows and cross them back to the AA bull rather than keeping his own heifers.

Angus bred stock are great if you can bring them from birth to slaughter in my experience. They might not kill into big weights or prices but there ease of keep amd associated lower production costs counteracts this in a way. However unless you have better than average type stock then there not suited to the live ring unless perhaps as forward stores. Showing a bundle of middling type AA weanlings or light stores is a recipe for disappointment in most cases.

Anto_Meath

The reality with suckling is even with say 10 cows you need to use two types of bull. The Angus out of a Continental cow is a fine calf & very saleable at any stage. But once you start approaching 75% Angus the quality is well back and so too are your returns. Similar with a well bred continental cow, she can be lacking in milk. The ideal is to use an Angus bull on continental cow & a continental bull on Angus cows. This is possible with AI but not so simple with stock bulls. There is a lad beside me at it with a Hereford bull on Charolais cows & buying in replacement Charolais heifers. He is killing supper stock & getting the Hereford bonus on them all & is bull must be over 10 years old now as he keeps none of his daughters for breding.

blue5000

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118292565#Comment_118292565

23 months, general average for angus bulls was about 380 to 390. Make sure you look up any potential bull on icbf for milk, they need to be +5 kg and preferably +10. Bellview on here is a ped breeder, maybe drop him a PM for advice.

squinn2912

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118294575#Comment_118294575

I know a couple of men 3 off the top of my head that work hereford and charolais bulls. I took an odd walk through their cattle at times (with them, I’m not the owner of the one wellie from yon other thread!) and I was surprised how well the hereford cattle were doing. Very impressive. I thought the charolais end of it wouldn’t have enough milk to keep the calf but there you go. The lim bull is hard to beat for an all rounder. Would love something similar to the last fella we had but I wouldn’t be convinced that his heifers are good breeders. Only one round of them so far so next summer will tell a lot.

Neo Sanders

I know a fella who is using a herford bull on continental cows and finishes all the stock.. He's doing very well. He's breeding great cattle that finish quickly and grade well. Add in the HE bonus and it's a real winner. When I saw his calves and cattle I was very impressed with the quality. However he has very good mainly LMX cows and a fine big, long HE bull. But like other posters said, the quality diminishes when he breeds from his heifers. I haven't been talking to him in a while, but I know he was planning to buy in some continental heifers to breed from.

I think it's not a bad way to go. But to make the most of it , I think you need to go all the way and finish them.

Anto_Meath

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118298493#Comment_118298493

In fairness squinn I have seen a few photos you have put up of your cattle on here and they are first class stock.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118298630#Comment_118298630

Lmx are great cows for suckling. Limo crossed with British freisian cows.

Growth rate of the limo and milk ability and decent frame of the British freisian.

squinn2912

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118298664#Comment_118298664

Thanks Anto you’re very decent to say that. Like everyone else good, bad and in the middle.

squinn2912

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118298630#Comment_118298630

Was that man better off with a quality bull and buy in the heifers? In my head he has it back to front. Better again pick x amount of his best cows and ai them for replacements?

Neo Sanders

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118298964#Comment_118298964

Separating cows for ai is hassle and time consuming. This lad also works. His system is less complicated the way it is. Using the HE bull gives him the bonus in the factory. Crossing the other way would have similar quality cattle without the bonus.

I use ai a small bit, most cows repeat at least once from it. It's a much higher repeat rate than with my bulls. Is this the norm?

Easten

If you have to go down the road of an Angus Bull for Suckling then why even stay in Suckling. You are only breeding dairy type stock at that stage. Why not go into forestry instead? It pays a lot more, it's Tax free and you have very little work involved

Hard Knocks

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118304319#Comment_118304319

You can chop and change livestock breeding as much as you like but when you plant you’ve destroyed the farm forever for keeping livestock. Each to their own

squinn2912

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118304266#Comment_118304266

It is a pain. We would tend to try the earliest calvers with ai before going with the bull. They’re still inside or not long out and usually handy to a yard. Would get a few but in truth I was happier with our own Lim calves so kinda got out of that system. That man must be fair and good at picking the heifers I like to know the story with them hence why I prefer our own. I suppose if he;s for the factory then the bonus matters but I’m not a beliver in that being much good - factory will usually do you some other way - so almost all of our cattle go to mart as forward stores or fat cows etc.

On the repeats yea pretty much. You can be lucky in a mild early spring etc but I suppose it’s about 6-7 out of 10.

Neo Sanders

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118304730#Comment_118304730

I have recently changed from selling forward heifirs and cows in the mart to killing them myself. I used to have the same opinion as you on the factories. However after selling forward types and having them make less per kg because they were too fleshy for a number of years. I've started keeping them a little longer and killing them. So far I'm happy enough. A lot of the time there are only a few buyers in the mart for forward types and those lads like to get their margin.

However this year, they are going well everywhere, so it mightn't make much difference.

I killed 2 cows on wed, they both graded r and killed 54%. One was 13 yo and looked an o to me. They got 10lb of nuts since 1st November, which is not a lot imo. But I think if the feeding is in them, you're better off in the factory

Neo Sanders

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118304319#Comment_118304319

Candain Angus on a chx cow will leave a great animal, as good as any. There's no comparison with the fairy's coming from the dairy herd. AA cattle are selling really well in marts at the moment. The suckler ones even more so.

There is more variation within any breed than there is across the breeds.

squinn2912

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118305370#Comment_118305370

All I know is any time we’ve been closed up with tb had forced to go with factory we’ve not got the value of our animals. The marts here that’s what the buyers are looking for, a farmer couldnt get a look in except for smaller cattle. Maybe it’s different where you are but from what I know I’d have to disagree with you. Dealers are getting 20-30p plus for factory and so they can give 10-15p plus in mart.

I’d often hear the older lads talking about some man ‘he always kept great cattle and then he went and he bought an angus bull and that put him away to hell.’

Easten

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118306535#Comment_118306535

That's different. Canadian or US Angus are much bigger and several hundred Kgs heavier than the easy calving Angus breed that is used in Ireland/UK and many parts of Europe. You might as well use the Charolais or Limousine Bull at that stage.

Goes back to my original point that if you are going down the easy calving angus route for Sucklers than its a waste of time and effort as the returns are poor and don't believe what they are saying about great prices for Angus type cattle now, there isn't, it's ok for Angus but doesn't even come near to the prices of good Continental type cattle.

Base price

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118306535#Comment_118306535

+1

IMO the introduction of US and Canadian bloodlines into the "traditional" breeds has made them more commercially viable. For too long Irish Angus, Hereford and Shorthorn breeders got caught up trying to chase the easy calving/short gestation route to suit dairy farmers but to detriment of their respective breeds. Thankfully some pedigree breeders have embraced these new bloodlines and I think they will suit the earlier slaughter ages in the Governments climate action plan.

Base price

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118307635#Comment_118307635

So what do you reckon is the alternative for many farmers - mostly older full time but some are young and part time throughout the Country on smaller farms and in some cases marginal land.

squinn2912

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118307635#Comment_118307635

HA!! Very good, we’ll all have to stop commenting now. I think if you have good quality you can do ok at it but each to their own if you’ve found a better system to suit you then fair play.

Base price

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118307717#Comment_118307717

I don't understand what you mean ??

Neo Sanders

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118307635#Comment_118307635

😂😂😂 Unfortunately the options on marginal land are limited. Dairy beef is even worse, especially when meal is so expensive.

As one fella said forestry is the way forward, but I don't want to be living in darkness

Base price

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118307800#Comment_118307800

I presume that you know and understand that beef processors have also been recipients of coupled payments.

Grueller

I have to agree with Jjameson on this one.

I carried sucklers here for years. Still have about 40 of them. I am just in after calving one. She will cost me on 2021 costings €760 to keep for the year. I will sell a weanling/yearling from her for €1000 average.

I have a computerised calf feeder purchased. That will do the same work as the 40 sucklers. I carried 15 bucket reared sucks to 13-14 months and sold them in the spring gone by. They averaged 365 kilos and I sold them from the yard for €2 a kilo so €730 per head. Their costs were €560 per head.

Suckler calf €240 margin. Dairy cross €170 margin. I can carry 3 young dairy cross for 1 suckler and calf combination. €510 margin vs €240 and that is at €1000 average for weanlings which I would say puts me in the top 25% performing herds at a guess. That is not a boast, just a fact, and still it's not viable.

squinn2912

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118308056#Comment_118308056

So are you for getting rid of your sucklers?

Cattle are a good trade at the moment but if they were to take a dip my concern would be that the poorer quality dairy cross wouldn’t hold their value.

The last animals here we sold were a group of heifers and they averaged £2.38 for 617kgs at £1477 so if I convert to Euro to measure like for like then thats about €1,715. They were around 18 months so that’s about 40p x 300 days so they’ve cost another £120-150 to feed means they’re still leaving about £650 or so behind them and I’ve also deducted the £20/head the mart take which would be equal for the dairy cross. I still think we’re getting out at that.

Grueller

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118308066#Comment_118308066

I am letting them go squinn. I just can't carry the workload with all of the batches. Sounds mad I know but at times suckling has created up to 6 batches of cattle here. Autumn calved bulls, autumn calved heifers, spring calved cows, dry cows, replacement heifers, stock bulls not in use. That is without anything in sick bay. Its just too much while working part time off farm also and milking as well.

squinn2912

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118308260#Comment_118308260

I think we all overed the amount of batches on another thread and yea it does add up with sucklers but you’d have a fair few with dairy stock too. I’d forgotten that you milk as well. That means you have a supply of dairy cross calves as it is and you know all about them including the start they’re getting etc. I think you’d need to be doing one or the other especially if you work out too you’d have an awful lot on your plate.

Easten

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118308056#Comment_118308056

I sold a batch of 10 Suckler bred heifers between 9 and 11 months old last week. Highest price 910, lowest 845 Lim X and Charolais X off 4 nd 5 star cows. Not bad stock, averaging around 330kg no meal given to them. Hardly setting the world on fire and if I took your costing of €760 that leaves an average margin of about €115. I'd need 350 of them to make the average Industrial wage!!!!

blue5000

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118308751#Comment_118308751

Don't forget to add on all the money from the various schemes we have to go through to actually make money out of sucklers. Genomics, beep, beam, LFA, hen harriers, glas. You wouldn't get too many of these in forestry. I've probably forgotten a couple.

squinn2912

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118308751#Comment_118308751

So where do you go from here?

Easten

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118309127#Comment_118309127

That is the question.

Getting 800-900 for Weanlens was just about ok up to about 2 years ago. Today it's just not cutting it.

I must add that on the mart day mine were at the top end of the price range. There was several pens of Heifers sold below this. I seen 250kg heifers struggling to make 640

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118308831#Comment_118308831

Genomics + Beep is worth about 180/cow to me, I know figures might be better or worse for some. The rest of the payments I'd get if I only kept a few donkeys or was in Forestry.

I was expecting far better prices this year, we should have seen price rises of at least 20% to be at a stand still.

squinn2912

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118309586#Comment_118309586

No that’s no use. If you’re going for the weanlin market then in my opinion you need a heavier early calf. 250kgs is no use even if they sell well. Without even looking at costs €640 or even £640 wouldn’t look at keeping a cow and giving you anything back. I can’t mind who but someone was on here last year arguing the merit of calving in December so that he would have that strong weanling, I thought it too early but I don’t sell weanlings it doesnt suit me. Unless a really flashy one straight off the cow would make as much as a weanling as he would nearly 6 months later. Weanlings in our local mart were making £1050 to £1150 for quality ones 350-400 kgs, that would be meeting you. That’s top end though tbf

Me and my da will need to really sit down and figure out numbers for autumn compared to spring calving and see what makes more sense. For our ground vs shed capacity we’re maxed though so that’s why it’s likely to remain spring autumn split and it means animals to sell for cash flow for larger portions of the year which is an advantage too.

Hard Knocks

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118309586#Comment_118309586

Other years the 300-350kg calf was top price, this year it was the 400kg+ calf is it due to the Italian trade?

September is a better month to sell

Hard Knocks

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118308056#Comment_118308056

That’s good weights, you’re a top operator

Lost a calf in Spring and fostered a BBX heifer, went back a few weeks later and bought 3 FR bulls, weighted all a few weeks ago heifer 300kg, bulls 230kg, a June born suckler CH calf @ 330kg, bulls are getting 4kg daily between the 3, nothing else getting nuts

minerleague

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118310629#Comment_118310629

If every suckler farmer stops there wont be much out of drystock either

squinn2912

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118310629#Comment_118310629

Possibly you’re right about that. There might be an issue where the cows would eat out the ground for you where calves wouldn’t so that cuts out endless topping. Wed have 2 groups of cows/calves, bulling heifers, 2 weanling groups, 1-2 forward store type groups and dry cows. We’re spread over 3 main farms & outfarms so there’d be groups anyhow. I’m a teacher so I be off during the summer anyway and I love going round the stock. When I do go round the stock I don’t really wanna be looking at a load of fresians and I enjoy producing the type of cattle we have. FRom year to year calf to beef might work out better for a specialist for us it might not. I’ve friends who dabbled in it and are back out of it now after outbreaks of all sorts of diseases and games of cat and mouse with tb. Nothing is plain sailing as I say if youre finding calf to beef to be more beneficial to you then good on you, keep at it. I’m not making little of any of your points but I remain unconvinced that it would be better for us. I like to try new things out so I might buy a group of them and see how they go… then again, that would mean another group about the place!!

minerleague

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118310826#Comment_118310826

Are you the drystock farmer quoted in journal that gave 490/acre for 5 year lease on land 😎 by any chance?

trg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118310459#Comment_118310459

We're going to try that road. Whatever doesn't calve in January gets the road. I'm quite with work in early Spring and we've long winters so plan is to have all calved in January and back in calf in April leaving the shed.

Sell what isn't staying for breeding in September and October then.

Need to be really ruthless with culling and probably be very lucky with getting in calf! Will try AI.

Have a middling outfarm so buy whitehead runners for that in early Spring I think.

trg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118308056#Comment_118308056

Might be reading this wrong.....is it that you've a feeder for 40 calves? What type and cost? Thought you'd need around the 70 mark for one

squinn2912

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118310973#Comment_118310973

Sounds like a good plan. Is the best thing to be ruthless right away or could you pull back calving in stages over 2 years? In the Month of May I have exams so an odd tough day at school but mostly it’s fairly light and a great big long evening. The idea of trying to take cows in for ai or run them with the bull wouldn’t bother me. We even calve a few in May. People be horrified at that when I say it but those ones eat the butt of silage, calve outside and no issue with bedding. A problem is then that when you’re weaning they are smaller calves but if you have a few of them then theres a pen. I haven’t really giving it the right study but I’m not in a panic to cut them out either. The glut of calving in Feb/March is more anguish!

Hard Knocks

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118311029#Comment_118311029

Agree those late calvers can be fed on very little to maintain them over the winter, then out the door as they calve

squinn2912

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118311271#Comment_118311271

Yea I’ve a neighbour who does the same. All usually seems to be going to plan but he got the sh1te polled out of him on weanlings this year. He be’s grumblin about cattle being dear but there needs to be something for the creatur who did all those aforementioned dastardly tasks!!

Danzy

Part of my reason for getting sheep was because I think the day will come when there will be a lot of lads wanting cattle that are over the year at least and swww7 fb78 all who to rear them to that age and sell on as stores.

Nearly all dairy cross here in North Cork.

Costs are gone crazy for us all but the lad with them under 12 months is doing the heavy lifting cost and work wise.