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Is Ireland Racist?

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  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,070 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    Oh, you never know...., we already have two thanks ;-)



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Are there racists in Ireland? For sure, just as there are racists in every country on the planet.

    I'd argue that Ireland perhaps has fewer racists precisely because we ourselves have been an emigrant population for centuries.

    The definition of racist has changed. Genuine racism is hatred or dislike of people due to their background - such as the idea of hating black people because they are black. Now, the definition of racism is so wide that anyone for any reason is called racist and told that, even if there is no evidence they are actively racist, "they probably think it". So, you're left guilty either way.

    Very convenient and politicised use of the word, racist.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,708 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    Well I'm sure we're going to get a balanced, nuanced, thought-provoking thread on this topic in the forum that also features such dumpster fire threads as "What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland??" and "BLM or WLM?".

    May as well just merge all of these threads since they all end up with the usual suspects saying the same things in them anyway.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I think people need to travel more to truly appreciate the idea of calling a nation "racist".

    There is no national culture in Ireland to promote any kind of racism. It's simply not there. Yet. I suspect it will come about due to the pressure by activists against racism. Create the monster so you can justify your fight against it.

    If you want to see a nation that is racist, look to China which teaches that Chinese people are unique/special compared to everyone else. Or Japan, where the culture is superior to everyone else. Or America where Black people are systematically held at a lower social position than White people. That's not to say that every person in those countries is racist. But are there factors within a culture to encourage racism to manifest? and in some countries such things exist, whereas in other countries, like Ireland, they don't exist.

    Individuals are more likely to be racist occasionally, as opposed to be constantly racist in their beliefs.... but I suspect everyone is racist sometimes. It's simply part of human nature to be tribal. To feel disgust or contempt towards certain aspects of another culture. It happens to everyone, at some point in their lives.

    And I'd consider racism only to be a negative when people act on it, or express their views publicly. What people think in the privacy of their own minds shouldn't matter to anyone else.



  • Registered Users Posts: 798 ✭✭✭Relax brah


    No we are not racist.

    Given our history and the mass amount of immigration we did it would be hypocritical if we were.

    I work in a multinational tech company, our HQ for EMEA (Europe, Middle East and Africa) is in Dublin. We have hundreds of people relocate to Ireland every year to work for us based out of Dublin.

    the feedback from these guys is always the same, “Irish people are very friendly but difficult to become friends with.” From my perspective, we are welcoming and friendly but stick to eachother which is normal in any country.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I think the opposite is true.

    Immigrant populations tend to conglomerate together; such as Brazilian population, Nigerian population etc. Very little mixing with the host country population, but an awful lot of integration to their own / and to other immigrant populations. International parties are very common, and whilst they're not a bad thing, they tend to produce very superficial "friendships" where the most inane topic about your background country makes you instantly add all these different people as "friends" to Facebook. Yet none of these people end up being real friends at all. So I'd take that quote with a pinch of salt when you consider what happens on the ground with immigrant populations.

    I dare say the same is true of the Irish abroad, too.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    A country can’t be racist. Some people here are racist most aren’t. Same as any other country. There isn’t a country on earth that has no racists.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,484 ✭✭✭Hamachi


    This 100%. I too work in a multinational tech company and have repeatedly heard this assessment of Irish people.

    If you consider it from the perspective of the native Irish though, why would you bother befriending internationals, many of whom are only passing through for a few years anyway. It’s not like you’re going to de-prioritize existing relationships with your family and long standing friends, to carve out time to spend with immigrants.

    I actually pulled up one the foreign guys on my team for subtly implying that his Irish colleagues are ‘racist’ because they choose not to spend time with him outside the office. Thankfully, the message landed loud and clear.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The problem is that it's always harder to become friends with the native population.

    What tends to happen is that internationals live here and easily become "friends" with each other - superficial, meaningless friendships where they talk about, "Oh, In eSpain, we have this celebration...", to which the reply is, "Oh really? That's amazing! In Fhrrance, we have something veeery similar, let me show you my Instagram!". Totally meaningless, vacuous, superficial - what I would call "fake" - friendships. So, immigrants develop these pseudo-friendships as they have something in common - namely, immigration. But these friendships are so superficial that they convince themselves they're real friendships. So, then they say, "Oh, why are Irish people so hard to befriend?". Well, perhaps it's because you need to work harder to become friends with the native population who do not want or seek these superficial kinds of "friendship".

    It would be exactly the same if an Irish person moved to Madrid. It would be the easiest thing in the world to join some international group and have international parties every weekend talking sh1te about how great our cultures back home are. But it's very hard for that Irish person to actually meld into Spanish culture and become friends with a native. That doesn't make the Madrid people unfriendly or racist, because it's exactly the same with immigrants in Ireland. It's just a fact of life that real friendships take a lot more work than the superficial, fake friendships that form by joining internationals together at a meaningless party.



  • Registered Users Posts: 60 ✭✭katherineconlan



    I've heard that sentiment and I disagree with it. My parents are from Turkey (but they're non-religious). They found it hard to make friends here but didn't consume much alcohol.

    This may be unpopular, but I find that drinking alcohol and going to the pub is part of making friends. I know a lot of people from Turkey my parents age who have close Irish friends and they either married an Irish person or regularly go out partying with their Irish colleagues. My parents don't do the latter.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,932 ✭✭✭mikemac2


    Dr Ebun Joseph says we are anyway



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,484 ✭✭✭Hamachi


    Yes. I agree. What bothered me was the guy who reports to me, hinting in a not so subtle manner, that his Irish colleagues are xenophobic. I pretty much told him what you outlined above, but in a more diplomatic, work-appropriate manner.

    I lived abroad myself for a long time and know just how difficult it is to penetrate local friendship groups. I threw myself into a club for a sport that I enjoy. However, it was at least 3 or 4 years before I was even on the radar of many of the natives. After a decade in the country, I had 5 or 6 really great mates. It takes a huge amount of effort.

    On the other hand, I know and work with foreigners who have been in Ireland for up to 20 years and yet seem to have minimal contact with Irish people. They exist in the expat bubbles you describe and are quick to label Irish people as ‘distant’ without ever putting in the hard graft to build friendships.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The problem is that it's always harder to become friends with the native population.

    That is the other side of the same coin but you're making it sound awfully negative. When phrased like "It's easier to become friends with populations native to you" it makes a lot more sense. If you found another Irish person on a holiday to Spain it would be a lot easier to become friends with them as you share already a lot more culture, language, etc.. than you share with the native population.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users Posts: 21,522 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    What tends to happen is that internationals live here and easily become "friends" with each other - superficial, meaningless friendships where they talk about, "Oh, In eSpain, we have this celebration...", to which the reply is, "Oh really? That's amazing! In Fhrrance, we have something veeery similar, let me show you my Instagram!". Totally meaningless, vacuous, superficial - what I would call "fake" - friendships. So, immigrants develop these pseudo-friendships as they have something in common - namely, immigration. But these friendships are so superficial that they convince themselves they're real friendships. So, then they say, "Oh, why are Irish people so hard to befriend?". Well, perhaps it's because you need to work harder to become friends with the native population who do not want or seek these superficial kinds of "friendship".

    Jesus Christ but this comes across like the view of someone who learned everything they know about non-white, non-english speaking people from British stand up comedians who were somewhat big in the 80's.

    Surely you wrote this as a joke?



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,604 ✭✭✭✭MisterAnarchy


    The word "racism" is like ketchup nowadays.

    It can be put on practically anything — and demanding evidence makes you a "racist."



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Nope, it's really not. Everyone knows what racist is.



  • Registered Users Posts: 26,195 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    You're assuming a bright line between race and nationality, which doesn't correspond to reality. What you're saying here is along the same lines as people who say that Islamophobia is not racism because Islam is not a race; Antisemitism is not racism because Judaism is not a race; etc.

    "Race" is a cultural construct. The genetic differences that give rise to black or white skin are no more profound than the genetic differences which give rise to blue or brown eyes, but we don't divide the world in to blue- and brown-eyed "races" because eye colour doesn't matter to us in the way we have decided that skin colour does.

    We've decided that skin colour matters to us because skin colour maps on to a whole slew of cultural, historical, etc experiences and characteristics that we regard as significant. "Race" is just as shorthand for "these people share inherited characteristics that make them culturally different from me in a way that I dislike". If it bothers you that someone is Jewish because of your negative preconceptions about Jews, then Judaism becomes a race, and your antisemitism is a species of racism (and in fact the Nazis had no difficult in identifying their own antisemitism as racism; they were quite proud of it).

    Same goes for nationality. If you have a problem with somebody because he is, e.g. Polish, and you have a set of negative preconceptions about the characteristics that you associate with people from Poland, then your anti-Polish sentiment is a form of racism.

    Xenophobia is not something different and apart from racism; it's a particular kind of racism. It's generalised racism, that applies to people of all foreign peoples, customs, cultures. A dislike of Poles, as such, is not xenophobia. But if you have a generalised dislike of foreigners, which obviously would include Poles, that's xenophobia.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You just dalloped a big bunch of racism on people who are concerned about services. In a county with an accommodation problem it is certainly not racist to point at every factor including numbers coming in.

    The other poster is right, some people don't understand the true meaning of racism and throw the word around. Sometimes to push an agenda.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The days of silencing people with cries of "racist" in order to push an agenda are over. Get over it and move on.

    It is not racist to worry about any of the above because of 'a few new migrants'



  • Registered Users Posts: 26,195 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    If you're only worried about the demand on services because the people coming in are migrants, and don't raise the same concerns when people migrate e.g. from other counties, then, yeah, it looks a bit racist.

    Plus, if your solution to the problem is to stop migrants coming in rather than to improve service levels then, again, it looks a teeny bit racist.



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The people who suddenly become 'worried' about such things, having never giving it a second thought previously, are indeed just doing it as a means to argue against foreigners. I'm not sure why you feel the need to defend them.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,108 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    I would say that while there are certainly racists in Ireland, Ireland as a culture is not geared for racism in the way other nations are. Ex European colonial nations would be an example where the societies were geared for racism for a long time and that's been very hard to shake off. America an obvious case, where there was and largely remains a heirarchy in place with White Anglo Saxon Protestant Christians at the top and others following behind, where there was also institutional, financial and cultural racism in play for those of African and later of East Asian background, never mind Jews.

    Outside the West in East Asia for example, they never had the post colonial and post WW2 nationalism as a negative guilt thing that the West did, particularly in Europe, so nationalism is stronger, as is the "Us" are better than "Them" narrative, so racism from a western viewpoint can be far more overt.

    Now Ireland did have an institutional Cathloicism first after independence, but it wasn't based around "race" and it didn't last long. Plus it was one of the most homogenous nations in the West as far as "race" goes until very recently, so there were few outlets for overt racism simply because there were very few people who weren't White in the place, though it was certainly in play as a background thing. The old version of "eeny, meeny, miny, mo" I heard and accepted as a child of the 1970's would not fly today. Neither would "pennies for the Black babies" or golliwogs advertising teabags.

    Going forward is more up for grabs on the racism front. As we've seen in other European nations, as they become more multicultural we see more racism coming into focus, more banding and perceptions of of people into homogenous groups and divisiveness and ghettoisation increases and the same heriarchies build up. And that's very much based on "race". We can already see the beginnings of that here. Yes Ireland has become much more diverse since the mid 90's, however the vast majority of that diversity were and are White Europeans just like the natives, but one could be forgiven for not seeing that and think the majority of this new diversity were non White Europeans. Both the alt right racists and the anti racists certainly seem to have that perception and both work from that perception.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    No, it's most certainly not a joke.

    I've been a party to these kinds of events and understand full well how artificial friendships get formed bereft of any long-term meaning.

    It's no wonder immigrants think that the native population are hard to befriend when you have the above as your only comparison.



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Wtf?

    What does my post have to do with you?

    Bit paranoid there 🙄



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx




  • Registered Users Posts: 21,639 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Agree, white indigenous Irish cannot be "racist" to other white indigenous irish.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Irish people don't want to let people from three parishes over into their circle ,never mind someone from Brazil


    We are unbelievably cliquey



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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Yes, whatever our progressive enlightened betters deem it to be.


    Simples



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