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Domestic Solar PV Quotes 2022 - No PM requests - See Mod note post #1

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭Manion


    Hi Tipping,

    What size inverter are you getting with both installations? It should be a 6K inverter to give you the most potential for future upgrades.

    The recommendation these days would be to maximise your solar generation capacity. The idea of cutting back on the number of panels to hit a sweet spot for generation/consumption doesn't really hold. For illustration a 4kW peak capacity system will mean that really only in May are you hitting your full requirement, and even then due to the lumpy nature of generation you're likely not to have the energy when you most need it.

    As you've discovered, by shopping around you can easily get more panels without having to pay more money and panels have gotten cheap relative to the cost of everything else.

    Your E/W 6.4KWp installation will generate based on Europa significantly more energy over the course of the year than a 4KWp and the Energy generation in theory will be belter spread out. ~4700 Units compared to ~ 3700 Units. Is 16 the max panels that will fit on the shed? If you could get that up to 20 panels I'd go with that over 10 panels south facing which probably will have partial shading issues due to window placement. I bet the slope of the shed is more gentle as well? That's another plus factor.

    An Eddi doesn't really make sense anymore given the Feed In tariff for excess power. Quote 2 is closer to the money but still somewhat over priced.

    Post edited by Manion on


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,644 ✭✭✭creedp


    Unfortunately garage is E/W facing and to the east of the house so shaded for a good part of afternoon



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,412 ✭✭✭DC999


    As @micks_address, South produces the most. I’ve an E/W and tiny S. S will produce the most, fullstop! So max S out. More it produces, the more FIT you get paid when not using the power. E/W is much poorer in winter. 

    Installers will want an easy life. Working on 3 roofs adds to their work. I had to push for installers to quote for that. Mine are actually on 4 roofs now (2 x E, 1 x W, 1 x S). So get what suits you!

    While W will give evening sun, I’ve a 1.2kWp NW (it’s not really W) and only get a few hundred watts tops in the evening. So it won’t power your home.

    If it comes down to cost and can only get 2 roofs, max the S. And then pick E or W depending on when ye use more power (E for morning, W for evening). Or whichever roof will fit more.

    NW will die from end Sept until March. Sun won’t ever hit the panels. But it’s still worth having once all other roofs are filled.

    Golden rule is get as many panels as you can afford on install day. My roof is filled and can’t fit more. I wish I could. I'm out of touch on pricing so can't help there, but I've given some design ideas above.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭Manion


    Most domestic inverters will be limited to two strings (sets of panels) of about 10-12 panels max each. The poster will have to choose between a 6.4KWp installation E/W or a 4KWp south by the sounds of it. Alternatively if you get 4KWp south facing and then the second string on the shed, that would be the best set up but depends on the separation of the two and the max run for the DC cables from the house to the shed.



  • Registered Users Posts: 434 ✭✭tipping


    Just starting the process and lots to think about here.

    The garage (here when I bought the place) was I reckon built to the same standard as the house probably as a future conversion (cavity walls, windows ground and first floor, pitched EW roof with a velux in each aspect), and is about 80sqm at ground level. It's about 10m to the west of the house and is pretty much completely unshaded. It's fully wired with it's own fuse board etc.

    The house itself is a double hipped roof bungalow (had forgotten about the hipped roof) with converted attic. There's 6 velux along the main length of the house (South) and 1 velux each on the East and West aspects. L shaped on the East so that Elevation is longer.

    The east elevation is partially shaded by an old Ash tree that I think has Die-Back and I'm going to pull down some day. The west elevation is shaded a little by the pitch roof of the garage in winter

    So actually on the main house perhaps I could max out the South. Installer 1 reckoned he could fit more than 10 (maybe 12-14 panels in the space) and go with a second string on E or W. Garage could be left as a future project.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 434 ✭✭tipping


    I haven't received the detailed quotes yet (as regards inverter size) but will update once I have.

    Thanks for the input on the Eddi, I'll check the maths on that.

    The garage is ~ 7 x 11m with a pitched roof probably about 45 degrees, pretty much the same as the house. I don't know what size a panel is but it's a pretty big roof so could imagine fitting more

    Yes the more I'm seeing, get as many panels as I can.



  • Registered Users Posts: 434 ✭✭tipping


    This is great.. I'll come back with figures once I figure out how many panels I can actually fit



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭Manion


    That's absolutely what you should do then. Max out the south aspect and then go for East or West for the second string of another 10 panels.

    You'll get 4529.24 Units for 12 panels south, and another 2727 for 8 panels west. Depending on the inverter and panels you might have a max of 10 panels each string and he should not split a string across aspects. From March till October you would basically generate more than 100% of your electricity needs. Even a small battery in there would smooth out your consumption during a day to ensure solar generated during the day was available at night.

    You should be able to get an 8KWp system with a 6K hybrid inverter installed for the money you've been quotes after grant.









    Now there's all types of things you can do to get even more power out of your setup and those can be explored with a bit of research but the simplest and cheapest thing to optimize for is the number of panels. Your shed sounds like a house btw ;). A few posters here would have that decked out with panels as well, even south facing wall mounted ones with a second inverter. It sounds like your property is idly suited for being a Solar powerhouse, if you where inclined. If your heating system was a heat pump you'd be laughing.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,912 ✭✭✭con747




  • Registered Users Posts: 824 ✭✭✭HotSwap


    They said they were gonna have to rip down ceilings / floors etc to run the cables in the main house.

    they also mentioned that the S facing house roof is littered with velux windows; it will prob end up looking like a dogs dinner.

    assuming there is suitable space in the garage for the inverter to be wall mounted; they could just just max out the E/W roof on the garage it could be a much neater install. The only thing is how big is the cable that connects the garage to the mains. If it’s 6mm2 SWA it will be enough to support a 6kwh inverter.

    they are saying that the roof is 11M long. So you can comfortably fit 8-9 panels portrait on each of the E and W faces. So could get up to 16-18 panels total; maybe more if they can fit a second row. That’s a 7.5 kWh system.

    an issue with having panels on both the house and the garage is they will have to figure out how to get the DC cables from one building to the other; this could be messy if they have a nice concrete / tarmac drive; unless they wanna have two separate inverters.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭Manion


    I might have missed that or it’s on another thread. Obviously there is a balance there in how disruptive the installation will be and aesthetics. That’s a personal decision.



  • Registered Users Posts: 134 ✭✭Savetheplanet


    I think you are mixing up two similar posters quotes.



  • Registered Users Posts: 83 ✭✭mno101


    hi all,

    great content here. my usage in 2022 was ~7,000 units. with 40% of the units consumed between 5:50pm and midnight

    i received quote for the following - €13,400 before grant. €11,000 after.

    4.2kw system

    6kw hybrid inverter

    10 tiger panels 

    4.8kw battery (2 x 2.4)

    eddi

    i was told that getting 2 x 2.4kw batteries is better because its easier (financially ) to add another battery in the future. if i get a 5kw batter the only option in the future is to upgrade with another "expensive" 5kw.

    i was not given the option without battery ....but i am going to go back and ask for it.

    i still think its too expensive based on what i have read here. comments appreciated.

    cheers



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭Manion


    Should be about 7.5K after grant based on guidance so coming in 3.5K over, or about 45% overpriced.

    usual questions apply, 4.2 all you can fit, and what aspect are you facing? At 7000 Units a year you'd definitely benefit from a bigger system.

    Two batteries are better than one in terms of discharge/charging in parallel. I guess they're PylonTech? In the future will you even be able to source such small batteries. Popular here due to the grant but that is done. I'd only be going down this road if it was the lowest cost per unit capacity, that's what you should optimize for. Here is a Weco for 2530 euro inc Vat https://solartricity.ie/weco-range-2/ versus a PlylonTech for https://www.ecostore.ie/p/pylontech-lithium-ion-24kw-us2000c-battery-48v/us2000c?gtagrefurl=https%3a%2f%2fwww.google.com%2f for 1400, the Weco is about 14% cheaper per unit for instance. Depth of charge is also relevant as not all batteries are 100% usable, so worth checking.

    You'll need around 10kW capacity if your plan is to be off grid from 5pm to midnight. I'd just get one 5Kw battery if you're unsure of the value with a view to adding a second of the same capacity if you need it. This business of going up in 2.4 KW chunks is a nonsense as your major cost will be getting the guy out to install.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,644 ✭✭✭creedp


    I'm considering my options here as well as lconnecting inverter to consumer unit will be very distruptive if inverter is located in the attic. An option I was considering is to locate panels on house roof and run a cable from house to garage to connect with inverter and battery located in garage. I dont like to idea of an overground cable connecting house and garage but it might be a least worst option. One question I have relates to this point

    "The only thing is how big is the cable that connects the garage to the mains. If it’s 6mm2 SWA it will be enough to support a 6kwh inverter."

    The garage sub board is connected to house by a 6mm2 swa but this is used to power zappi located in the garage. Will it be OK to connect a 6kwh inverter to this cable given that it is used to power light, plugs and zappi?



  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 5,873 Mod ✭✭✭✭graememk


    The only issue could be the zappi, if you were charging your batteries overnight and your car.

    But the zappi can be configured not to overload cables too, eg not to have more than 32 or 40 amps on the supply cable to your garage board.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,644 ✭✭✭creedp


    Thanks, OK so that is a potential headache I hadnt considered. I originally decided to locate in garage as it is great to have a completely condensation and frost free car during the winter. The alternative was to locate beside meterbox but unfortunately thats directly underneath TV ariel and a magnet for bird sh1te!!



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,412 ✭✭✭DC999


    And tbh you'll car battery will prefer that slow charge anyway. Not an issue on a night charge assuming you've a night meter as there is a large time window to charge. But if doing a boost charge during the day it would slow the charge down of course.



  • Registered Users Posts: 36 D.flynn


    just got quoted €14,650 inc VAT after Grant for 5.81kW system in Galway:

    14 Jinko 415W panels

    Huawei 6kW inverter

    Huaweri 5kWh Battery

    and eddi. quote does not state optimisers, but they will be needed.

    does that sound about right ?

    Still thinking of going the DIY route.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,644 ✭✭✭creedp


    Sure with a day/night meter currently its not a problem with a 9 hour night rate. However, with the advent of smart meters the night rate window might not always be so generous. Also if you want a full overnight EV charge for a longer journey, it may not be possible to fully charge both batteries on night rate.

    I've tried to work out the max charge rate for solar batteries but I've got myself all confused between volts and amps. Can you tell me how quickly solar batteries can charge / discharge in kw? I think its approx 5kw which would mean a 10kwh battery could be charged in 2 hours, leaving the rest of the night rate time for the EV, which would be OK at point in time, whatever the future might bring.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 824 ✭✭✭HotSwap


    It’s a bit complicated because the grid CT for the myenergi system should really be installed as close as possible to your meter (between meter and main DB); not specifically on the cable between your main DB and the garage DB. If you do this all your stats in the app will be wrong; and also you’re not protecting your main ESB connection from overload. No possibility to pull in a new higher capacity cable?

    also you need to get the DC cables from your roof to your garage; you really need to protect these cables as they will have 500V on them; you mentioned overground cables; how are you proposing to route these?



  • Registered Users Posts: 824 ✭✭✭HotSwap


    200x14 for the panels: 2800

    1300 for the inverter.

    battery controller: 1000

    5kWh battery: 2800

    mounting and cables: 1000

    eddi: 500

    9400 for all the gear that’s with 13.5% vat as the installer will be buying it.


    17000 before the grant; so he’s charging 7650 for installing all the gear. It’s a lot.

    why do you think you need optimisation?



  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 5,873 Mod ✭✭✭✭graememk


    I think the zappi can do both.

    Grid CT (possibly already has a harvi to do it), is for the grid CT for the whole system, and then you can also have a supply CT to protect the supply cable.

    I don't have a zappi, but I do have an eddi, set the CT to monitor, then you can have it monitor a group, and set a group limit

    (There is no CT connected to my eddi's second CT port)



  • Registered Users Posts: 36 D.flynn


    Ya, i thought as much.

    Neighbours chimney will cast a shadow. I'm trying to determine how many i will need as i may be better off with Microinverters.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭Manion


    Some Graphs to help. I've two batteries for a total of 10KWhs capacity that can charge up in Parallel though seem to always max out around 50A Dc, 13 AC or approximately 4.4KWh in terms of energy. It really depends on your Inverter and your batteries as well as their configuration as to what can be supported in terms of max charge but you wont be charging your batteries at 32 amps. It takes about 3 hours to go from 10%-90% battery charge with the remaining 10% taking another hour or so.




  • Registered Users Posts: 5,644 ✭✭✭creedp


    That was the complication raised by the electrician when installing the zappi so we didnt install the wired CT clamp at the time because it would have required a channel to be cut into walls, footpath and drive to route cable from zappi to meter box. I was hoping that using a harvi - see link - might be an option to overcome this but the electrician didnt know anything about how it worked so I left it until I was actually installing solar - nearly 4 years ago!

    Energy Harvesting Wireless Sensor | myenergi UK

    I need to discuss this properly with solar installer. When I tried to bring it up with sales guy who called recently I got a glazed-over look so I left it until I can discuss with an actual technician. It may well be that the easiest solution is to relocate zappi to the external house wall, next to electricity meter box, and then install the wired CT clamp. The inverter and battery could then be located in garage and both car and batteries could be charged simultaneously using night rate. The only downside with locating inverter in garage is that it wouldnt be possible to use an eddie to divert excess solar to heat water but as I have a heat pump thats not a big issue

    As for the issue with getting DC cable from house to garage, I hadn't thought too much about it really but there are only 3 options: 1) run cable overhead between the 2 roofs - wont look great as garage is single story hip roof or 2) route cable down external house wall and cut a channel across drive to garage - again very messy or 3) install inverter and batteries in house attic and run DC cable down external wall and then drill through wall and cut through ceiling and internal wall to get to main DB - this option is not getting the necessary support from other half at this point!

    Whats annoying is that all this could have been avoided had I installed a conduit between house and garage when building (or if the builder / electrician had kindly advised that this would be a good idea). I ran into the same problem when installing broadband fibre as the conduit from gate to house turned out to be 1/2 inch blue hydra which already contained a phone cable used for the gates intercom.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,993 ✭✭✭jkforde


    ..

    🌦️ 6.7kwp, 45°, SSW, mid-Galway 🌦️



  • Registered Users Posts: 824 ✭✭✭HotSwap


    the harvi will work perfectly for your grid CT. And you can connect a wired “solar” CT to the charger to get stats on that.

    you can then connect another wired CT to the zappi in the garage and configure it as a “Group Limit - External CT” - https://www.myenergi.com/wiki/zappi-v2-wiki/installation-3/#LoadBalancing

    or relocate the zappi; that will be better overall.

    I think your overhead DC option is a non runner; too dangerous; there is no protection on these cables.

    cut a channel and install several conduits; future proof it this time.

    option 3 still requires a DC cable from the garage to the house if your still planning on putting the panels on the garage.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,644 ✭✭✭creedp


    Thanks for these insights as I'm clueless when it coming to everything electricity!

    Just want to clarify the purpose of the wired "solar" CT. Are you referring again to the Zappi charger? Where is that CT located?

    I get your point re overhead DC cables but I hate cutting channels in footpaths and drives. In relation to option 3, I wouldnt be planning to locate anything in the garage. At some point I may install additional panels on the garage roof but I would need a separate inverter for those. This time around all the panels would be on the house roof, as its south facing, and the inverter / batteries would be located in the house attic. I would then have to route the cable from inverter to consumer board by exiting through attic wall, down external wall and in through wall close to where consumer board is located. As I mentioned this will require cutting into ceiling to route cable into the room with the consumer board which is not being appreciated! An alternative option would be to locate the inverter / batteries in the same small room as the consumer board and heat pump but its located in the middle of the ground floor and Id be concerned about a potential fire hazard. In any case the problem of routing the DC cable from the panels would still exist, so no easy solution.

    At the moment Im looking to go with a 8.4kwp system (20 panels), 6kw inverter and 5kwh battery. Reading previous posts would I be right in thinking that I should be looking for a ballpark €12,500 gross quote for this system?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭Manion


    It's hard to picture your setup so a couple points which may or may not be clear.

    The EV Charger is small potatoes. From the sounds of things they could have taken the power for the EV from the Cabinet as you've indicated the meters actually on the opposite side of the garage wall? Either way, it works and people are getting quoted mad money (almost the cost of a full install) for minor works on Chargers.

    The Inverter requires a CT clamp to measure the amount of power used so that it can optimize pulling from the battery to match consumption. This CT Clamp must be able to talk to the Inverter and specific inverters will require specific makes and models of CT clamps to be installed. I'm not aware of any Inverter that supports a wireless CT but perhaps other know. You can place the CT clamp at the Meter box or at the Consumer unit but it will only be able to see what's behind it.

    You have to get the panels cables to the Inverter and the inverter to a consumer unit. I'm not sure how it matters in terms of cable runs weather you put the inverter in the attic or the small room in the middle of the house. You may not get a choice in where the cables go, as mentioned the DC cables will be operating up to 500volts and I'm sure there are regs regarding maximum runs, armoring, and burying.

    Batteries should be located as close as possible to the Inverter to minimize lose and the entire inverter and batter setup is going to require roughly 1.8meters by 1.5 meters (or more for two batteries) of clearance. That will dictate more than anything else where it can go.

    You maybe limited to 8KWp depending on your inverter overloading ratio, something you should look into, something to keep in mind if you're going south facing as you'll likely hit that peak. In the future you might want to go beyond 8KWp, be aware that there is a different set of applications you need to fill out to be able to have a total generation greater than 6KW, costs about a grand and you're not guaranteed to be allowed. So you could be getting yourself in knots over something you won't be ever able to do or only able to do a significant expense.



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