Autumn Series ‘21 - Ire v Arg 21stNov Kickoff:14:15 TV:RTÉ2/C4 Radio:RTÉ1 Stream:RTÉPlayer/All4

ujjjjjjjjj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118203294#Comment_118203294

Harry needs gametime and lots of it but the way they pass and the way they approach the game at 10 is entirely different and Harry for me has the high ceiling potential for a Sexton like passer on the gainline.....

Look let me put it to you this way. Can Carbery play 10 and kick his goals - yes but I think what you got today is about as good as he will get there. Harry has a higher ceiling and we have time now to invest. For me Carbery's talent at 15 (I've always advocated his open field running where his weaker passing is less of an issue) is another factor to consider. If he goes to WC 2023 as Keenan's understudy (or even starting if he can displace Keenan) with the ability to play at 10. Think if Sexton does make WC 2023 - Sexton and Harry can travel and arguably having Carbery as cover at 15 and 10 is hugely useful and perhaps not bringing a third 10.

Yes we can analyse Byrne today and pick out the mistakes but you have to sometimes look a little past it. I'm not looking at the 9's as they don't impact the passing and aggressiveness of passing line. That is what made Sexton world class - I think Harry can get there.

Ardillaun

So many positives but...our offloading didn’t sparkle the way it did the other day and we weren’t great at the scrum. I wouldn’t have liked us to be facing RSA with that scrummaging performance. Some wheels on Baird. Casey changed the game when he came on. Like the other tourists the Argies looked done.

lawrencesummers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118203362#Comment_118203362

Lowe did what he could.

Beirne made a massive run to get across.

But to see where the mistakes were made you need to look at the numbers lined up at the last breakdown, more than one player was in the wrong place.

Also all of our trys today were scored by the pack. Says a lot about how ineffective our backline was all day that they couldnt manage a try in a rout.

Henshaw only back and thats fair enough, but nobody else in the backline had a game to be writing home about and it makes Carberys selection of MOTM even more baffling.

ujjjjjjjjj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118203348#Comment_118203348

Entirely agree with all of this.........Keenan breaks down and we don't have an immediate and potentially world class replacement - Carbery could be that and yes competition of course.....for Keenan. Hardly any pressure on him atm.....which is never healthy.

UAEguy2020

There were definitely good parts of Harry Byrne’s game that show there is a top 10 in there but I think he probably was abit too eager to make an impression. We just need to continue giving him minutes either for Ireland (against Italy and potentially one other game in the 6N) and top level games in the CC or interpros.

UAEguy2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118203101#Comment_118203101

Maybe they were woejus because we made them look woejus, just like Japan? I don’t recall France,Scotland,Australia putting these teams to the sword like we did this autumn.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118203373#Comment_118203373

Yale's but a lot of that is assuming Harrys ceiling. November challenge matches are great for trying lads out but if Sexton is out for the 6N we should not pick a player based on assumed future ceiling.

A Sextonless team definitely has Carbery at 10 as things stand

TRC10

I think people are seeing what they want to see when it comes to Carbery.

We know Sexton is old, injury prone, and won't be there at the WC. Therefore we want to believe that Carbery is an able deputy and so we label an "ok" performance as a MOTM performance.

Carbery was "ok" today. He passed it on, took contact a few times, didn't really challenge the line, and he kicked his goals. But he never really took control of the game, didn't show anything to suggest he's anywhere near Sexton's level and I would not fancy our chances if he was starting at 10 in a WC knockout game. And I can't say I'm hugely surprised, because apart from a couple of games against Gloucester 3 years ago, he's never given us any evidence that he can be a top level out half.

corny

Carbery slotted his kicks but if you'd given me 10 guesses at MOTM i probably wouldn't have guessed correctly. That said, anyone saying Byrne was an improvement needs their head examined.

Beirne keeps putting pressure on the coaches to pick him. He'll eventually force his way in as an automatic starter.

Annabella1

Sheehan looks a very exciting find

perfect darts and very mobile and big

Paul Smeenus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118203498#Comment_118203498

No, I don't think so.

If they were that bad because of pressure from us, that would have been a massive positive. I'd have been delighted. But that's not how it looked at all. We looked pretty rudderless at times in the first half.

TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118203745#Comment_118203745

Well I guess I need my head examined then because I thought he was better.

His passing is far faster and crisper. He carries the ball better, and he challenges the line better and squares up defences which gives his outside backs more time and space. Carbery crabs across field and throws generally floated, very readable passes. Byrne may not make the right decision 100% of the time, but he's decisive and takes control. Carbery has looked like a rabbit in headlights this November.

Yes he threw a poor pass under advantage. And overcooked a cross field kick under advantage, which is something Sexton does most games anyway.

ujjjjjjjjj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118203745#Comment_118203745

Honestly if you can't see the potential difference between Byrne and Carbery as a potential world class 10 I give up. You can analyse the game today and yes call out Harry for the mistakes but honestly if you can't see the difference I don't know what to say. His passing line and speed, risk taking and on the line delivery are entirely different. Harry needs gametime and lots of it.

If we are going to win a world Cup (and yes we are good enough) we have to take a bit of punt in places. Harry is one punt we have to take in my opinion. May not work out but you have to push the envelope. I have never seen anything even close to world class from Carbery at 10. At best steady and safe which is what we got today. Is he a quality footballer yes but honestly he is better suited to 15. Ross Byrne can do safe and steady all day long as a backup 10 behind Sexton (I'd by some miracle he makes it 2023) and a more experienced Harry.

Time will tell where Farrell et al go with this.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118203728#Comment_118203728

“Therefore we want to believe that Carbery is an able deputy and so we label an "ok" performance as a MOTM performance.”

This is just not true, tho, TRC. Pretty much everyone (apart from Donal Lenihan) has been saying it wasn’t a MOTM performance.

But it was the best performance we’ve seen from a non-Sexton 10 vs Tier 1 opposition in a long time, imo.

It’s probably fair to say he played better at 15 than he did at 10, but he also played better at 10 than any of the back-up alternatives have. And that’s our more pressing need. (And another encouraging thing today was his defence, something he’s been heavily criticised for recently).

Those saying HB was better, I’m really not seeing it. His performance was very error strewn, and he played the majority of his minutes vs a beaten 14 men. (He’s plenty young and will improve tho, so hopefully will see plenty of time for Leinster over the next few weeks).

TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118203886#Comment_118203886

But it was the best performance we’ve seen from a non-Sexton 10 vs Tier 1 opposition in a long time, imo.

This really isn't saying much, let's be honest.

I'd probably say Carty v Japan was better than Carbery was today, but it's close.

The last time a 10 other than Sexton looked like an able deputy where you'd say "yeah I'd have no worries about him starting" was Jackson in 2016/17.

fitz

Joey had more time when he moved to 15 today. I'd hold judgment on how well he does at 10 in this Irish setup until we see him get the speed of service that JGP delivered last week. Byrne made a handful of errors, but nothing overly costly and was ambitious...I think rightly called out above as being over-eager. But he absolutely showed the kind of 10 he could become, and if he can continue to develop, he could be something special, imo.

Dubinusa

Don't know what to think after this one. Very stop/start and tons of errors. But, it's a win! Farrell will be chuffed. The scrum creaked and that's fine. Porter will improve over time. Kelleher is an animal! Insane! Sheehan is an animal! Herring must be sweating bullets. One of the hookers will probably leave Leinster. They're too good not to be starting elsewhere.

Ringrose was fantastic. Great series for him. Lowe was ok. But, he took some chances kicking behind the defense. Right idea, imo and just the execution was off. He's impressed me in that area of his game. Lowe is a very clever player. Keenan, besides the howler of a mistake, again was great.

Overall a decent day. Especially with the subs that got valuable experience. HB was ok. Poor mistakes and there were a couple, but the potential is there. He attacks the defense so well. He will be better than Joey, if he can stay fit.

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118202098#Comment_118202098

I don't hear any Kildare in is accent at all, which is weird since he spent 5 years in school in Athy where they have proper accents. Maybe the year in Blackrock erased it entirely.

sydthebeat

I was at the match, wife asked me on about 73 mins who would my motm be, I said either Furlong or carbery, but as Furlong went off after 60 they'll probably give it to carbery.

Loads on here saying carbery looked better at 15 than 10, and loads saying they were baffled at carbery getting motm. Well part of the reason he got the accolade was because of how good he was at 15.

His tackling was excellent. He put in a couple of huge dump tackles on bigger guys. His distribution was ok, but I'd put some of the pressure he was under down to Murrays lack of any tempo (another story altogether) and henshaws rustiness outside. His kicking from open play was decent, he could have had a 50/22 but I think it was passed back in, but i cant recall exactly

Yes after a 46 point win where all the tries came from the forwards you could argue that it should have been a forward (VDF was also immense) but I don't think that any head scratching should be due to carbery getting it.

I thought Carbery was fine but he was no more MotM than I was. For me the best performers by a distance were Furlong, VdF, and dare I say it POM had his best game for Ireland for a few years, but Furlong was well ahead of the latter two really.

bilston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118203179#Comment_118203179

Baird is quite the athlete. I'm interested to see what he is like in the tight when things aren't just as comfortable as yesterday.

bilston

Some tough audience members here!

53 points on a Tier 1 nation is a bloody great result.

Consider the team that finished the match yesterday

15 Carbery, 14 Baloucoune, 13 Earls, 12 Ringrose, 11 Lowe, 10 Byrne, 9 Casey

1 Healy, 2 Sheahen, 3 O'Toole, 4 Beirne, 5 Baird, 6 O'Mahony, 7 Timoney, 8 Doris

7, possibly 8 (not sure about Doris) of that XV have fewer than 10 caps and they put Argentina to the sword.

60 points on Japan...Scotland beat them by fewer than 10

Completely outplayed NZ and won with room to spare....NZ won the Rugby Championship not so long ago

Hammered Argentina by 50 points...France beat them by fewer than 10 two weeks ago.

Lots of experience for younger lads

A new gameplan established and a coaching and management set up that have found their feet.

That was an unbelievably good Autumn. I honestly don't think it could have gone any better. Sure it would have been to nice to get a 4th game against the US or Georgia to play more of the squad, to be honest I'd actually rather have a had a 4th game against Australia (fed up watching SA) as that would have been another good test, but in terms of what the management could control they couldn't have asked for more.

molloyjh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118203794#Comment_118203794

Once we got our s**t together in the second half, Argentina simply weren’t in the game at all. I asked the question last week about the way we looking to play and how it’s dominating opposition teams. Japan were poor against us, but they weren’t completely out of the game against anyone else the way they were against us. New Zealand too were dominated in a way I don’t think I’ve ever seen. While France did beat them by more, they never dominated the 80 mins the way we did. And when we got ourselves together yesterday Argentina didn’t have a sniff.

All those 3 games could be explained away individually, but collectively we are seeing a pattern. We seem capable of shutting teams down. Now maybe we got lucky with the way the fixtures landed. But I think this is one area that we should be looking at in the 6Ns. If we have games where the opposition simply aren’t getting into the game again (Italy aside) then maybe it is how we are performing that’s causing opposition teams to struggle.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118203728#Comment_118203728

He made at least 2 linebreaks, but tbh, I'd put a lot of the blame on the poor distribution onto Murray who just didn't get the ball away fast enough and he had a few poor box kicks early on that were too far to chase effectively

Its a clash of styles that makes it difficult to get a complex attack together so they reverted to route 1 to get the job done.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118204633#Comment_118204633

I think the most promising aspect of all of this, is that in the 3 games, we played 3 very different styles of rugby and all of them were effective

Japan was offloading dynamic attacking rugby

NZL Pressuring the line, keeping the ball tight and attacking space by moving the ball quickly through multiple points of attack

Argentina - Close route 1 rugby, give the ball to the big buys to drive through them in contact and mauling over the line

Its always been a weakness of the Schmidt system that it was like rock paper scissors, Our style worked extremely well against a lot of teams, but we were poor matches for the likes of wales who's game-plan seemed to always work well against us. We were not able to dynamically adjust our gameplan and kept making the same mistake over and over and getting punished for it.

Farrell and the rest of the ticket are trying to teach situational awareness and to trust the players more than just trusting 'the system'. Not just 'knowing your role' but knowing that if you see an opportunity that you should take it and others will cover for you if it breaks down or be there to capitalise on the line break by running support lines more often than not

Dupont is the best 9 in the world not just because he's good at distributing, but because whenever there is an opportunity to attack, he is there supporting it, ready to receive a pass or run a decoy to force an overlap.

New Zealand do this, and now Ireland are starting to do this more often too.

aloooof

Some thoughts on that:

• That's as good a set of Autumn results as I can remember. The management team in general, but Mike Catt in particular, the big winner of the last few weeks. POC must be happy too, the lineout is working very well.
• My main thoughts at HT were that we were playing pretty well, the scoreline was flattering and we hadn't gotten the ball into Baloucoune's hands nearly enough. Of those 3 things, my thoughts on the scoreline was the only thing that changed by FT.
• Furlong was MOTM for me, his base level performance is just so high, we're lucky to have him. VdF and POM were also excellent. VdF's carrying in particular has improved dramatically in the last year or so. He's had a far far better Autumn this year than he did during the ANC.
• Encouraging from Joey. He's been around awhile but that's still only his 9th start. His place kicking is consistently excellent, and he really showed up defensively, which had been a huge criticism of him recently. Hopefully can kick on further with the CC games coming up.
• Murray's delivery vs the ruck clean-outs is a chicken and egg situation, but whatever way you slice it, his delivery was notably slower than last week. I think there's a good chance Casey overtakes him provincially before the end of the season, and I can't imagine Farrell will pick two 9's who are both 2nd choice with their province. With Doak impressing, Murray could be under serious pressure.
• To the select 1 or 2 posters comparing POM to Lavanini; Lavanini has 3 reds and 7 yellows in his 66 match Test career. POM has 2 reds and 8 yellows in his entire 230 match career. That's the scale of your error. It just reeks of wanting to have a cheap-shot at POM. Ironically.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118204955#Comment_118204955

Agree with most of this - in particular not utilising Baloucoune effectively and playing a bit narrow in the first half.

Re O'Mahony - was asked about his remarks to Lavanini in the post match presser and said himself that he'd been on the other side of that so I guess POM was also have a cheap shot at POM...!

molloyjh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118204930#Comment_118204930

Good point in the different approaches to the different games. I’m also getting the impression that Farrell is a very good man manager across the board. Sure the guys who we see playing are doing well and talking the talk, but I also reckon the lads who aren’t playing are getting the right kinds of conversations about what they need to do. Just look at what Lowe said about being dropped, what he was told to work on (and how) and how he was treated when he did that.

And looking at the post match presser yesterday, the way he talked up players too. He seems to be the kind of head coach that has players backs, can be completely honest with them but in a positive and constructive way and is creating a very good environment where they are also happy to talk about becoming a great side and looking to target the RWC. Some of the comments remind me a little of BOD talking about how the team wanted to create a legacy at Leinster 10 or so years ago. Having that goal and the belief that you can achieve it is hugely positive, and isn’t something we’re used to seeing from Ireland.

TomsOnTheRoof

Looking back at the game I'm really impressed by Beirne. He's been a standout performer over the last year and a half. I'd definitely have him starting.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118205032#Comment_118205032

A player reined his comments in at a press conference? Colour me shocked.